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Age of the earth...Young or old?

Please show me another historical account in the Old Testament that has the same structure, rhythm, parallelism, chiasmus, repetition and the lavish use of number symbolism that Genesis 1 has.
Can't. To think otherwise, the boy's more mixed up than a feather in a whirlwind.
 
I would offer.

No gap theory. In that way no man can call two or more what God calls one beginning .His revealing the first public premier showing.

Kind of like Light curtains. . action.

Three things that make up the very essence of God the Faithful, invisible Creator. Three denoting the end of a matter throughout the bible

(1)God is eternal Spirit as the Father. . the breath of life . (2) God is Love and not that he can only exercise its power .And (3) God is light and not that he can also create it temporally. Let there be a Sun rise day four .

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

In the beginning God prophesied "let there be Light". . . . our Creator introduced His own self." show time" the veil lifted . . revealing the darkness.

His presence was the literal the light of the whole world . Closes the literal light for 12 hours of night revealing it 12 hours as day .

Day three Christ saw pride in the spirit of lucifer the light bearer, who was to protect the glory rather than usurp .

Christ's glory departed. Day four the temporal light the Sun and the moon used to represent the glory of God. The Sun and the moon as a wedding parable in Psalm 19 .The Father the source of faith the unseen eternal things . The reflected glory, Jesus the Son of man, the first born of many sons of God, believers .

Psalm 19:1-7 King James Version The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom (Christ ) coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Jerimiah 4: 23-24 below sheds a little light of revelation

Jerimiah 4: 23“I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness; And to the heavens, and they had no light.

No light, no gospel, no revealing of the hidden things of darkness.

Jerimiah 4: 24(Christ the light) I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills jolted back and forth.

On the last day under the Sun the glory as the light of the whole world will return 7 times brighter than the first three days. . . no need for night to represent evil

Revaltion 21: 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

I agree that God's glory is brighter than the sun. How could it not be. He is the Creator, the Alpha and Omega.
But we need to be careful about reading things into the text that is not stated. The text calls the light 'Day'. Where else in Scripture is God's glory referred to as 'Day'?
 
I can agree with that point....salvation isn't based upon a particular belief in Genesis. The problem is one starts to slide down the slippery slope....long days turn into epochs...these long epochs turn into uniformitarian beliefs.....which turns into God presented Genesis as some form of myth or allegory .....which often becomes God used evolutionism to create man....which could then easily mean Adam and Eve didn't really fall in the Garden of Eden because it didn't really exist....which leaves the question as to why mankind sins and how their fallen nature and need for redemption came about.

There is nothing to fear in seeking to understand the text in its original context. We must allow the text to speak for itself and not impose upon it our own ideas or fears.
 
You say, sin and death entered. What do you mean by entering? It entered the Garden of Eden? I dont think so actually.. Look what God says to Adam, in Genesis 3,
It would have entered the Garden if they had not been thrown out. It was in Adam. But I did not mean to imply that God cursed the Garden.
I think Adam was put to work the ground outside the garden, he still had to work it, nothing changed, it will be with more difficulty now. It wasn't the ground in the Garden of Eden, why curse something that they are just getting thrown out of anyway? If it was the ground in the Garden, an angel wouldn't have to guard the Tree of Life. After all, the ground is cursed, wouldnt that be part? But I dont think the ground in the Garden was meant. God said, in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; And we know Adam didn't live in the Garden all the remaining days of his life.
We don't know how difficult it would have been if it hadn't been cursed, but that aside, I did not mean the ground of Eden was cursed. I was, in that OP https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-shadow-land-of-the-mosaic-covenant.2118/ showing the shadow of "land" land where God dwells with His people, that shows up again as a shadow of things to come in the land alotted to Israel with God as their God. It was not the cursing that was the central point other than as the land (the whole earth) was affected by the fall and it is the whole land God is bringing in as His kingdom, rather than just the land of Israel. So I am not sure how that falls into this OP.
But outside the garden, the earth compared to the Garden of Eden? I'd say would be quite a difference. Who knows how much earth time had passed while they were in the Garden, (a type and shadow of heaven), paradise.
I don't see it as a shadow of heaven, but of earth, the home God built for us and where He dwelled with us until----and will dwell with us on earth again. A new heaven and a NEW EARTH.I see it as Israel is also a shadow---all the outworking of redemption.
Adam's sin didn't curse it (scripture does not teach such) but because of his sin, God put them out of the garden, and because of the ground (earth) he would have to work harder.
God cursed it because of Adam's sin. Outside the Eden was also created by God. Did He create it cursed? What was different outside the Garden is that inside the Garden where God dwelled with Adam and Eve, all was provided by God, not by their labors. Outside---it was by their labor, though God was still provisional. The labor was harder for now there were thorns and thistles and things decayed and died and became diseased.
 
I agree that God's glory is brighter than the sun. How could it not be. He is the Creator, the Alpha and Omega.
But we need to be careful about reading things into the text that is not stated. The text calls the light 'Day'. Where else in Scripture is God's glory referred to as 'Day'?
Great point. Something that should be considered.
 
I believe it's illogical to hold to 24 hours day for creation. But that's just me, and I wasn't convince when I visit the Creation Museum or any Scriptural proof-text. To me, the word "day" in Hebrew language has many meanings. It can be a 24-hour day and also be a long period of time day. That is what divides Old earthers from Young earthers. From the Genesis account 1, there are descriptions "evening" and "morning" for the separate six creation days. Of course, when you think normally about 24 hours (like the average Joe does), then it would be "from evening to evening" (24 hours) or "from morning to morning" (24 hours). I am not suggesting two days equals one day or 12 hours equals one day. But this literary device simply doesn't follow our modern thinking and conception of day pattern. So, something more is going on besides a 24-hour day.
And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (vs. 5).​
And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. (vs. 8).​
And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. (vs. 13).​
And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. (vs. 19).​
And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day. (vs. 23).​
And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. (vs. 31).​

But then, there is no such description of "evening" and "morning" as a boundary being assigned for the seventh day. Why? There may be some Biblical clues for an answer. The description denotes the idea that each separate sequence days there was a starting point (evening) and a ending point (morning). This many imply that the seventh day is continuous and on-going. God's rest is finished, but we are still in the seventh day.

Genesis 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

The Creator 'Jesus Christ' said:
John 5:16-18 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.​

This is about the Sabbath day and alluding to the idea of God resting in (Genesis 2:3). Jesus Christ is not a deist. God's rest has another significant, then a visual concept of a non-omnipotent God sitting on a throne asleep for 24 hours (Hebrews 4:9). The Father has been working from the very start of the seventh day up to this very day of age. Or in other words, working up to his very time era, and even, in our time era too I may add. This strongly suggests God finished resting, but the seventh day of resting had not yet ended since we are still in the seventh day. Even the author of Hebrews appeals to Genesis account.

Hebrews 4:3-8 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’" And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works." And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.” Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience,​

This implies that seventh day is still continuous and on-going. God has foreordained certain people to enter rest or others not to enter rest. Of course, you didn't physically exist in the start of the seventh day. You haven't been created in your mother's womb yet. But the fabric of this is still unfolding from the very start of God's rest to this very day of age. From creating Adam and Eve up to you and I, through the course of time. The Bible doesn't teach another "day" to follow the sequence of the 7th. day, but the seventh day is today. Not yesterday or tomorrow, but today. Unless the eight day is still yet to come after the resting is finished.

God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Therefore, it seems unreasonable to conclude that the references to “evening” and “morning” in Genesis 1 can refer to normal solar days. Young earthers suggest there is no sun or moon in the sky until the fourth creation day (Genesis 1:14-15). The obvious. The textual considerations seem to lead one to conclude that these are not normal days as people understand days. These creation days are long period of time, which are meant to be understood as analogous to human (24-hour) workdays. Not to be taken in a literal sense. Since the seventh “day” continues, as Scripture indicates, it could imply that the other six creation days were also long periods of time, rather than just 24-hour days.

I appreciate your views and there is much that we agree on.

When the Bible talks about God resting, it is not talking about Him napping, it is talking about Him taking up His reign. This is what it meant in the ancient world. That is why Day 7 never ends - because God is still reigning.
 
The Bible is not a scientific text book and to try to use it as such will lead to misunderstandings.



Please do not say only those who agree with the YECs are Bible believers. This is insulting and arrogant.



Really? Nothing hard to understand? OK, you say in verse 1 that God creates the heavens and the earth but not all their content yet. However, most scholars refer to verse 1 as a summary statement for the rest of the chapter. But you are saying that God created the heavens and the earth before Day 1 of creation week. Great, then I think we are in agreement.



When you say the earth is, as yet, unformed and unfilled, what exactly do you mean? Words matter, so let's be clear. Do you mean that the planet earth existed as some sort of gas or dust, or watery mass or that it existed as some watery planet, or something else?
Again, this is before Day 1 of creation week so let's be clear what we are starting with.



How can it be a 'straight-forward' account if we don't know what the light source was? Be careful here because you are adding words to Scripture. It does not say that God created another light source. He says 'Let there be light'. Light is not a material object. He calls the light 'Day'. Day is not a material object. If we are interpreting this as modern readers, we know that the light of day is from the sun - but there is not sun. How can this be a 'straight-forward' account if you have to read unknown elements into the passage for it to make sense?

Did you know that in the ancient near east it was a common belief that the sun was not the source of daylight? This is totally understandable, given that the light of dawn appears before the sun rises on the horizon.



See above.



You have to make up a different light source to make your reading of the text make sense. But this is not what the text says. God calls the light Day. It can't be any clearer. We know that the light of day comes from the sun. If you want to refer to the text as a 'straight-forward' account, then it should be clear what it is without needing to make up stuff.



Yes, on day 1 we have separation of light and dark - no material creation here - agreed.
I'm not going to put any effort into replying to such garbled nonsense. There is no agreement here, either between you and the Bible, or between you and I.

I remember this kind of conversation, from another forum, and I'm not going to indulge it here. Objectivity matters.
 
There is nothing to fear in seeking to understand the text in its original context. We must allow the text to speak for itself and not impose upon it our own ideas or fears.
All I've done is read it. Repeated what it says. Unlike others I have added nothing to it.
 
You say, sin and death entered. What do you mean by entering? It entered the Garden of Eden? I dont think so actually.. Look what God says to Adam, in Genesis 3,
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Was the animal killed to make the garments for Adam and Eve taken from inside the garden or outside of the garden?
 
Great point. Something that should be considered.
I love that we the brethren are children of the Light.
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

- 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5,8


—Pie
 
I appreciate your views and there is much that we agree on.

When the Bible talks about God resting, it is not talking about Him napping, it is talking about Him taking up His reign. This is what it meant in the ancient world. That is why Day 7 never ends - because God is still reigning.
Amen! The LORD never gets tired:
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, The Creator of the ends of the earth, Neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable.

- Isaiah 40:28


—Pie
 
All I've done is read it. Repeated what it says. Unlike others I have added nothing to it.
Amen, this is the crux of this disagreement. (y)

There are some here who are idolising their (or borrowed) opinions and speculations, using them as an excuse not to believe what the Bible says.
 
I appreciate your views and there is much that we agree on.

When the Bible talks about God resting, it is not talking about Him napping, it is talking about Him taking up His reign. This is what it meant in the ancient world. That is why Day 7 never ends - because God is still reigning.
Nobody said anything about "napping"!

It doesn't matter what the opinions of the "ancient world" were (if that even was their opinion). God's word tells us what it meant that he rested, in this context.

Gen. 2:1-3 (Webster)
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


That is what it says and that is what it means. There is nothing about God "taking up his reign" here, since God had always been reigning.

OBJECTIVITY MATTERS!

P.S. This seventh day is why the Jews were given the Sabbath day as a day of reigning - oops! No, they were given it as a day of rest from their works (not napping).
 
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I appreciate your views and there is much that we agree on.

What is though thing you disagree on?

When the Bible talks about God resting, it is not talking about Him napping, it is talking about Him taking up His reign. This is what it meant in the ancient world. That is why Day 7 never ends - because God is still reigning.

Jesus Christ is not a deist. God's rest has another significant, then a visual concept of a non-omnipotent God sitting on a throne asleep for 24 hours (Hebrews 4:9).
 
I agree that God's glory is brighter than the sun. How could it not be. He is the Creator, the Alpha and Omega.
But we need to be careful about reading things into the text that is not stated. The text calls the light 'Day'. Where else in Scripture is God's glory referred to as 'Day'?
I dont thing it a contest who has the most illuminating ability . The Creator or the creation .

The parable found in Psalms 19 describes Christ our husband coming for his bride the church , Using the Sun to represent the glory of God and moon and stars to reflect its power working in His bride .

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; (the light of Christ's word )whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Jesus as the Son of man is the one bright and morning The Father working in Jesus reflecting the Glory of the father

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Bright and morning. Both working as one God, it did lighten the darkness (night), and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 12:3 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day

Job 11:17 Your life will be brighter than sunshine at noon, and life's darkest hours will shine like the dawn....
 
Nobody said anything about "napping"!

It doesn't matter what the opinions of the "ancient world" were (if that even was their opinion). God's word tells us what it meant that he rested, in this context.

Genesis 1 was written to the ancient Israelites, not to modern day western Christians. They did not think the way we do, so understanding them, their culture and the way they thought sheds light on the context.

Gen. 2:1-3 (Webster)
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


That is what it says and that is what it means. There is nothing about God "taking up his reign" here, since God had always been reigning.

The whole passage is about the sovereignty of God over all creation.

OBJECTIVITY MATTERS!

P.S. This seventh day is why the Jews were given the Sabbath day as a day of reigning - oops! No, they were given it as a day of rest from their works (not napping).

The sabbath was for the Jews to rest in God - He is the One reigning, not them. They are to stop their work and remember that He is their Provider, the One who cares for them and blesses them, their King.
 
Genesis 1 was written to the ancient Israelites, not to modern day western Christians. They did not think the way we do, so understanding them, their culture and the way they thought sheds light on the context.

Hi I would offer.

I think its the goal of Satan the the spirit of antichrist, the spirit of false prophecy. Seducing mankind as false apostles.

It is used to deceive dying mankind to believe Eternal God is a dying Jewish man as King of kings

Culture has no bearing on the eternal word .

God is not a man as us. Neither are his way "Let there be" and "it was the God alone good. . way " .

Genesis 1 is writen to whosever has been given ears to hear his spiritual interpretation . . What the Spirit is saying. . . not us. .

God is not a Racist .

Revelation 2:1 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

All of Israel a born again name, all that are called Israel are not born again Israel as if the living abiding word the gospel of Christ failed . Some remained un-redeemed after Jacob the deceiver.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

In the same way not all that name the name Christian are members of the Christian bride , the new name he propmised (Isaiah 62)

Christian a a demonym people known by places . literally ; Christian, residents of the invisible city of Christ prepared for His wife founded by Christ the husband .

I would think A more befitting name to call the bride of all nations . Its seems to have lost most of its value and purpose . Some say a derogatory word like Bible thumper or holy-roller, Believers can rightly make it "great again ".
 
Genesis 1 was written to the ancient Israelites, not to modern day western Christians. They did not think the way we do, so understanding them, their culture and the way they thought sheds light on the context.



The whole passage is about the sovereignty of God over all creation.



The sabbath was for the Jews to rest in God - He is the One reigning, not them. They are to stop their work and remember that He is their Provider, the One who cares for them and blesses them, their King.
Today, Jesus is our Rest (Sabbath).
 
Today, Jesus is our Rest (Sabbath).
Sabbath one of few Greek words that should of been translated in English simply means Rest. Apostle another word that destroys the meaning of sent ones (UPS Fed X ) etc. How beautiful are their feet. . re-defined into "highly venerable puffed up ones that lord it over the understanding or faith of the non-venerable .

Shadow worshippers turning ceremonies as a sign to the unbelieving world .
A sign unto themselves I did it it proves I am a child of God walking by sight after the temporal historical things seen

The ceremonial baptism same way make it into proof someone has the Holy Spirit .In that way walking by sight after the temporal historical and not the unseen) faith). Aaron two sons first day added their own 15 second of false pride .they were consumed not a hint of smoke on the priestly attire

The sabbath was used as a ceremonial shadow of a weekend rest a time to fast from the five day work week They used it as a works self riotousness tool in a hope of seeking the approval of God not seen .getting angry and ready to fight over whose interptation. then wonder why God won't listen to there prayers!

Revealing the true gospel fast by which a person can be heard .Do for other as well as ones own family.

Isiah 58:58 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

There is a strong desire today called smiting with the fist of wickedness changing a ceremony laws as signs to the unbelieving world unto the law of self righteousness 15 second of false pride

In the new testament 9 times the word Rest (sabbath) is replaced with the word "week" a "time sensitive word"

The word week in Greek was not coined until later In 321 CE . In the Young's literal it is translated Sabbath once in the others 8 again as week

In effect I beleive saying. In the beginning of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first new era of the sabbaths, the day he set "let there be children of light


Matthew 28Young's Literal Translation28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The parable of humility verses self-pride .

Three Kosher meals were allowed

Luke 18:11-13King James Version11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes (twice a week) of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Both on the same day .Not a time sensitive word in any way shape or form

Not making any biblically sense

Like you said . Today Jesus is our rest (Sabbath ) green pasture:
 
Genesis 1 was written to the ancient Israelites, not to modern day western Christians. They did not think the way we do, so understanding them, their culture and the way they thought sheds light on the context.
That sounds like something borrowed from from N. T. Wright...

The Bible very largely explains itself. It needs to be interpreted according to its own explanations, using normal rules of hermeneutics. Of course we can look up dictionaries and commentaries, but we must not twist the plain meaning of Scripture, to fit some supposed way of thinking of an ancient culture. We must also not put an extra layer between the reader and the meaning of Scripture, as the Roman Catholics do.

The whole passage is about the sovereignty of God over all creation.
It's about how, and in what timescale, God created all things. Of course his sovereignty is implicit in that, but his sovereignty is not the subject.

The sabbath was for the Jews to rest in God - He is the One reigning, not them. They are to stop their work and remember that He is their Provider, the One who cares for them and blesses them, their King.
Stop trying to shoehorn "reigning" into everything. That's not how to do proper hermeneutics.

The legal Sabbath was about resting from works and worshipping the LORD. The New Covenant Sabbath is resting from our own works, in Christ. It is not about reigning.
 
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