A problem with premillennialism

[Carbon]

Lets say the premill understanding of the millennial age is a biblical one. (I dont believe it is) But let's say for a minute it is.
What would be the consequences of this interpretation of Revelation 20:1-10?

If Premill-ism is true, that means the Jesus returns to judge the world in Revelation 19 and to set up his millennial reign in Revelation 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's Millennial reign over the earth?

According to Rev 20:7-10, Satan is released from the pit and immediately goes out to the four corners to deceive the nations (Those same nations that have already been judged according to Rev 19:15). Satan organizes them for battle against the camp of God's people and the city God loves, that is - Jerusalem. This revolt ends when fire comes fddown from heaven and consumes the rebels along with the devil who deceived them.

But the question remains, Who are these people whom the devil received, who then revolt against God, only to be consumed by fire from heaven?


According to Premills one group of people on earth during the millennial age are the redeemed. No one believes that it is possible for such people who have been raised from the dead in the general resurrection, and who are now glorified, to participate in a revolt like the one depicted in Rev 20.

Therefore those who revolt during the millennium must be individuals who have not been raised from the dead or who have not gone through the judgement when Christ returned to earth when the millennial age began.

Dipsy's believe these are people who came to faith after the rapture and survived the great tribulation and wrath of the antichrist. On the other, Historic premills, believe that these are people living at the time of Jesus' return who were not raised from the dead or judged and who subsequently repopulated the earth during the millennial age.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Carbon,

If Premill-ism is true, that means the Jesus returns to judge the world in Revelation 19 and to set up his millennial reign in Revelation 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's Millennial reign over the earth?

I am not sure what your problem is here. Christ will return and reward the faithful with everlasting life and they will become kings and priests with Jesus for the 1000 years over the mortal nations that survived Armageddon.
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Towards the end of the 1000 years, human nature being what it is, even under ideal conditions, some will rebel against the authority of Christ and the faithful, and this will bring about the events depicted in Revelation 20 at the end of the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

Dipsy's believe these are people who came to faith after the rapture and survived the great tribulation and wrath of the antichrist. On the other, Historic premills, believe that these are people living at the time of Jesus' return who were not raised from the dead or judged and who subsequently repopulated the earth during the millennial age.

This from you post seem to be the way it will occur.

Is there any reason why the people who did not receive the mark could not be able to survive the tribulation and enter into the 1000 year reign?

 

[Ghada]

(Those same nations that have already been judged according to Rev 19:15).

No one believes that it is possible for such people who have been raised from the dead in the general resurrection, and who are now glorified, to participate in a revolt like the one depicted in Rev 20.

believe these are people who came to faith after the rapture

On the other, Historic premills, believe that these are people living at the time of Jesus' return who were not raised from the dead or judged and who subsequently repopulated the earth during the millennial age.

Your problem is not necessarily with the premil argument, but with frequently inserting the anti-mil argument into it.

You're not objectively investigating the premil argument by Scripture, but disingenuously trying to make it look foolish by other means.

Therefore those who revolt during the millennium

Or, at best inserting sloppy reading of Scripture into the mix. Or, a false accusation about the Lord's righteous reign on earth.

Here is the premil argument from Scripture that I know of:

The saints continue in great tribulation and wrath of wicken man on earth, as yesterday and today, until the moment of the Lord's return in the air. He first resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, and changes to immortality all His saints remaining alive on earth. Then they altogether rise to be recieved with Him in the air. This is the first blessed resurrection of all saints since righteous Abel.

None of His righteous people remain alive on earth. His judgment between His wheat and tares naming His name, leave the hypocrites on earth with the unjustified inhabitors. Then begins the greatest tribulation of God's wrath on earth since the flood and Egypt, with all manner of plagues, not rain.

Then the armies of His enemies gather around Armageddon of Judaea to make war with the Lamb and His saints in the air. They descend with the Lord Himself destroying all His enemies on the field, and establishes His government and throne of glory in Jersualem.

He then judges by works all people of nations remaining alive on earth, dividing the neighborly sheep from the goats. The goats are immediately executed, and the sheep are confessing newborn saints of the Lord.

The Lord and His resurrected saints' thousand year government on earth with rods of iron, begins with only born against saints in Christ Jesus, and their babes. The Lord's rule on earth is blessed with righteous law, just judgment, and swift execution of the wicked by law, sparing the innocent. There is peace on earth, and good will toward all men with the Lord's kingdom come.

When His thousand year reign expires, the outwardly righteous, but inwardly rebellious, will rise up one last time on the earth to make war with the Lord and His saints. When they gather themselves arround the city Jerusalem and the camp of saints, then the Lord destroys them all by fire of God from heaven.

Then is Satan cast into the LOF, the old heaven and earth pass away, and the last resurrection the rest of the dead are judged by works. The righteous are written in the Lamb's book of life, and the wicked are cast into the LOF.

Then is the creation of the new heaven and earth, and the Lord's everlasting city and kingdom coming down, with God and the Lamb dwelling with men. The justified saints written in the Lamb's book of life reign with Him forever, and the nations of natural men and women enter New Jerusalem for light of glory, living water, and healing leaves.

The unjust cannot enter the gates of the eternal city of God. without repenting of the evil deeds.

That about sums it up for me. If you can see error in any of it by Scripture, I'd be glad to see and correct it.

But inserting your own anti-mil beliefs doesn't prove nor disprove anything. Just Scriptural challenges are looked for.

 

[CrowCross]

The saints continue in great tribulation and wrath of wicken man on earth, as yesterday and today, until the moment of the Lord's return in the air.

The saints are resurrected and raptured prior to the tribulation period.
The saints will experience the "birth pangs" until the rapture occurs.

 

[Ghada]

The saints are resurrected and raptured prior to the tribulation period.

Of God's wrath and tribulation on earth, not man's.

The saints will experience the "birth pangs" until the rapture occurs.

True. As today, them that live godly are tried with temptation and tribulation unto the end of this life, whether by the grave of the Lord's return in the air.

 

[Musicmaster]

What I like is the utter absence of any mention whatsoever of the "Church" throughout all the chapters that describe the tribulational events, from chapters 6 through 19. That's like mentioning one family in particular by name, who lived in a neighborhood throughout the first three chapters of a history overview, and then in chapter four, speaking only of those in the neighborhood throughout the rest of the book and what happened to them specifically, with no mention of that family that was present in the first three chapters, but seem to have disappeared after the third chapter. Naturally, the mindful reader would ask, "Where did that family go? Why no mention of them any longer, even though it started out with them center stage?"

Granted, some tend to inject the Church into those wrath chapters, claiming that those who are called the "saints" in those chapters ARE the Church suffering under the very wrath of God being poured out on the earth, and over whom the man if sin was given dominion over to kill...even though it's promised the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church.

That thought process suggests that John somehow shifted gears after chapter 3 of Revelation, thus dropping the identifier of "Church" for reasons that none of those folks have yet identified with a reasonable explanation. That there are saved saints in the tribulation doesn't mean that they are a part of the grouping formerly identified as the "Church," especially given that, in chapter 7, we see that the tribulational "saints" are without crowns of reward, but have only palm branches in their hands.

This topic lends credible reason to emphasize not only what is explicitly said in scripture, but also what is NOT said. Silence is sometimes deafening to the point that claims to the contrary fall flat into the realm of allegorical nonsense.

Some have told me that the wrath is not "aimed" at the Church, even though the man of sin is allowed to kill the saints. If that's the wrath not aimed at the saints, then we really need a new dictionary with reversed definitions.

MM

 

[prism]

Some have told me that the wrath is not "aimed" at the Church, even though the man of sin is allowed to kill the saints.

Would this be referring to the wrath of God upon mankind or the wrath of the antichrist?

 

[Musicmaster]

Would this be referring to the wrath of God upon mankind or the wrath of the antichrist?

The seals are opened by the very Hand of Christ, which is therefore His wrath upon all the earth, given that more than 2 Billion will die in the first half at the opening if just the first four seals, and another (more than) 2 Billion will die in the second half, where the Lord's own angels will blast the trumpets, and others will pour out the vials...all by command from the Lord. The beast, he deceives and persecutes, and even will work what appears to be miracles, but all the power if from and of the Lord Himself.

MM

 

[Ghada]

What I like is the utter absence of any mention whatsoever of the "Church" throughout all the chapters that describe the tribulational events

Only if we fail to separate between unrighteous tribulation and wrath of man from righteous tribulation and wrath of God.

The saints only go through the tribulation and wrath of man, which is the warfare from the enemies of God and His people.

Only the unrighteous go through the tribulation and wrath of God. The greatest of it will be immediately following the last great tribulation of the saints and their resurrection to meet the Lord in the air.

, and over whom the man if sin was given dominion over to kill...

This is the wrath of man upon the godly. The saints in Christ have been suffering it on earth since His resurrection, continue today, and will only end with the Lord's return into the air.

even though it's promised the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church.

The gates of hell cannot keep them that repent from being delivered by Jesus from sinning. But the false doctrines of hell can corrupt the faith of Christ, and decieve them naming His name into continued sinning again.

The gates of darkness cannot keep the repented saints from breaking out into the Light. But they can keep the decieved sinning within.

That thought process suggests that John somehow shifted gears after chapter 3 of Revelation, thus dropping the identifier of "Church" for reasons that none of those folks have yet identified with a reasonable explanation.

The identifier of the churches of God is the saints in Christ Jesus.

Mat 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

That there are saved saints in the tribulation doesn't mean that they are a part of the grouping formerly identified as the "Church,"

It means they certainly haven't died yet.

Once again. If anyone doesn't understand that much tribulation and wrath of man has been against the saints, since the beginning. And the last days continue as the beginning with the apostles, then they fail to understand that only the end of these last days is greatest with the last great antichrist beast to come.

The greatest triublation and wrath of God upon the unrighteous on earth, will be immediately following the end of all saints' tribulation and resurrection from the earth.

especially given that, in chapter 7, we see that the tribulational "saints" are without crowns of reward, but have only palm branches in their hands.

Crowns of reward is traditional error. The only crown of reward recieved by the enduring saints, is the crown of life. The only rewards for service are cities on earth during the Millennium of Christ and His resurrected saints.

Silence is sometimes deafening to the point that claims to the contrary fall flat into the realm of allegorical nonsense.

True. Many allegories, parables, and fables are made out of the Bible, in order not to believe what is written in deed and in truth.

Some have told me that the wrath is not "aimed" at the Church, even though the man of sin is allowed to kill the saints.

All the wrath of God is aimed at earth, with inhabiters dwelling there.

All the warth of that man of sin is aimed as steadfast saints alone, while they remain alive on earth.

The former only begins when the latter ends, with the resurrected ascension of all saints, that are taken out of the way from the Lord's wrath to come.

then we really need a new dictionary with reversed definitions.

This is true. I sometimes see people trying to change word definitions and grammatical law, in order to change what the Bible says into something else.

Dan 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This is further clarified by Paul, to include changing word meanings and laws of grammar:

1 Tim 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Simply put, it's using the low arts of sophistry and lying rhetoric to change doctrine and prophecy of Scripture, into one's own imagination and faith.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Only if we fail to separate between unrighteous tribulation and wrath of man from righteous tribulation and wrath of God.

It's equally telling that the text doesn't differentiate who will be counted among those who die as a result of the opening of those seals. The assume none of those deaths will involve any followers of Christ, that is an assumption without merited evidence.

The saints only go through the tribulation and wrath of man, which is the warfare from the enemies of God and His people.

Not during the tribulation. The wrath of God is poured out upon ALL the world, unless the text were to say otherwise, which it doesn't.

Only the unrighteous go through the tribulation and wrath of God. The greatest of it will be immediately following the last great tribulation of the saints and their resurrection to meet the Lord in the air.

This assumes the believers will be shielded "within" that wrathful outpouring, which, again, the text does not betray to us.

This is the wrath of man upon the godly. The saints in Christ have been suffering it on earth since His resurrection, continue today, and will only end with the Lord's return into the air.

To downplay the fact that the man of sin will be handed victory over the saints by the Lord who is in charge of all, that betrays the lack in your arguments.

The gates of hell cannot keep them that repent from being delivered by Jesus from sinning. But the false doctrines of hell can corrupt the faith of Christ, and decieve them naming His name into continued sinning again.

Not sure what your point is here since that was never an element in the text nor my comments.

Once again. If anyone doesn't understand that much tribulation and wrath of man has been against the saints, since the beginning.

That's a non-issue in what I have said since the scope of the effects from God's wrath is not limited in any way in its effects overall.

Crowns of reward is traditional error. The only crown of reward recieved by the enduring saints, is the crown of life. The only rewards for service are cities on earth during the Millennium of Christ and His resurrected saints.

And yet the tribulation saints standing before God, who had endured to the end of their lives at the point they were snuffed out, have NO crowns on their heads, but only wreaths or palm branches in their hands. No crowns of life are mentioned as resting upon their heads.

All the wrath of God is aimed at earth, with inhabiters dwelling there.

Yes, with the Church utterly absent.

The former only begins when the latter ends, with the resurrected ascension of all saints, that are taken out of the way from the Lord's wrath to come.

And the Lord's wrath is manifested upon all the inhabitants of the earth at the very beginning is evidenced at the advent of the four horsemen.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It's true what was written in ancient times, at the time it was written, where it is stated that no man "knows" (present tense at that time) the day nor the hour of the Lord's coming for His Church. What was said was indeed absolutely a true statement. However, nowhere was it written that no man will EVER know the hour of His coming before it happens.

As a matter of fact, scripture reveals that those who are watching WILL know the hour of His coming before He comes for us, and that it will only be as a "thief" to those who are NOT watching, and only those NOT watching will not know the hour of His coming for His Church.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB20 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, [that is,] Jesus who rescues us from the wrath to come."

There's no need to worry, for the context doesn't change anything in what this quoted statement means. It says what it means right here without having to try and split nose hairs over whose wrath is in view. The wrath that will be world wide, that will be the wrath of the Lord upon all throughout the tribulation, with the Beast working through governmental powers to do his own mischief and murder.

MM

 

[Ghada]

Not during the tribulation. The wrath of God is poured out upon ALL the world,

True. Not during the tribulation of wrath of God upon the unrighteous.

Only during the wrath of man upon the righteous, are His saints still upon the earth.

This assumes the believers will be shielded "within" that wrathful outpouring

No, it teaches the saints are resurrected and ascended to the Lord in the air, and taken out of the way of His tribulation and wrathful outpouring.

The assumption is that only the tribulation and wrath of God is prophesied in Revelation.

To downplay the fact that the man of sin will be handed victory over the saints by the Lord who is in charge of all, that betrays the lack in your arguments.

To upplay a new personal doctrine into a older argument, betrays a lack of persuasion in the older argument.

The Lord allows the wicked to bodily kill His saints. That is not a victory given by the Lord over their souls.

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The warefare of antichrists is always first spiritual and doctrinal, as when Cain 'talked' with his brother more righteous than he.

The victory of the Dragon gotten by false prophets and apsotles and teachers, are only over anyone naming Christ, and persuading them to believe a false doctrine and gospel to their own destruction.

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Such as persuading anyone naming Christ, that they are not judged and condemned by their own urighteous works, so long as they are naming Christ.

That's a non-issue in what I have said since the scope of the effects from God's wrath is not limited in any way in its effects overall.

Only a non-issue to someone solely fixed on their own interpretation of prophecy. Such as all tribulation and wrath in Revelation is from God upon the unrighteous on earth.

However, it's the beginning issue of prophecy in Revelation, that begins with the tribulation and wrath of man upon the saints in Christ Jesus:

Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

That tribulation and wrath of the wicked upon the righteous on earth, began with Cain slaying Abel, and has been ongoing on earth, and much more since Jesus Christ began building His church on earth after His death and resurrection.

1Sa 26:24
And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

And yet the tribulation saints standing before God, who had endured to the end of their lives at the point they were snuffed out,

No, were clothed in white.

have NO crowns on their heads

Correct. I don't read of any crowns on any heads in the first resurrection of the saints, nor on anyone serving God and the Lamb forever on the new earth.

, but only wreaths or palm branches in their hands.

I'm sure if anyone demands a crown rather than some dumb palms, then the Lord will be most happy to accomodate.

Or, rather they just won't be there to make any more demands of the righteous Lord and God, as they did on earth.

No crowns of life are mentioned as resting upon their heads.

So, they are not. Therefore, the crown of life rewarded to the righteous at the resurrection of the blessed, are not seen on their heads.

Or, they are not mentioned.

Yes, with the Church utterly absent.

True. Utterly from the earth, not so utterly from the air. They will be with clouds, and so not so well seen from the earth.

And the Lord's wrath is manifested upon all the inhabitants of the earth at the very beginning is evidenced at the advent of the four horsemen.

Rev 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Lamb's wrath is not come until after the ususal promises, failures, and wrath of man, that ends as usual in death and hell on earth.

Interpretation of Scripture and rightly dividing the word of truth can be as simple as reading the Scripture as written. It's only when words are changed around and/or taken out of order by readers, that things get confusing.

 

[Musicmaster]

No, it teaches the saints are resurrected and ascended to the Lord in the air, and taken out of the way of His tribulation and wrathful outpouring.

Agreed.

Only a non-issue to someone solely fixed on their own interpretation of prophecy. Such as all tribulation and wrath in Revelation is from God upon the unrighteous on earth.

No, you missed what I stated. I said that it was a non-issue in relation to what I had said previously, not that it doesn't have any merit at all.

However, it's the beginning issue of prophecy in Revelation, that begins with the tribulation and wrath of man upon the saints in Christ Jesus:

Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

That tribulation and wrath of the wicked upon the righteous on earth, began with Cain slaying Abel, and has been ongoing on earth, and much more since Jesus Christ began building His church on earth after His death and resurrection.

Interestingly, the death of more than 2 Billion of the earth's population during the first four seals are all still the result of the Hand of the Lord opening those four seals, and thus releasing upon the earth the resulting wars, famines and death. The fact that some of those deaths will be the result of men killing men, that's unremarkable given that the Lord needs no defending against the fact that it is ALL He who is releasing those things upon the earth on the basis of His wrath against Israel's continued rejection of Him and the unbelieving masses who have until then thumbed their noses at that the Lord and His Law.

As an Israeli, this is very disheartening to me, but I bow my knee before the Lord and worship His majesty and speak praises for His perfect Justice.

1Sa 26:24
No, were clothed in white.
Correct. I don't read of any crowns on any heads in the first resurrection of the saints, nor on anyone serving God and the Lamb forever on the new earth.

The believers who are of the Church have golden crowns on their heads. The tribulation saints who died within the tribulation, as you agreed, do not have crowns of gold or even a wreath on their heads. People have asked why the tribulation saints have no crowns, and the only answer that the text seems to betray to us is because they did not set their faith upon Christ until He was pouring out the revelation of Himself through His wrath from which they suffered. Given that they chose to not believe in Him during the Church age, that was a giving up of the reward of crowns when times were better, before the wrath of the Lord was poured out upon all the earth.

I'm sure if anyone demands a crown rather than some dumb palms, then the Lord will be most happy to accomodate.

Based on what scripture?

Or, they are not mentioned.

When the silence is that deafening, the obvious becomes meaningfully apparent.

MM

 

[Eleanor]

It's true what was written in ancient times, at the time it was written, where it is stated that no man "knows" (present tense at that time) the day nor the hour of the Lord's coming for His Church. What was said was indeed absolutely a true statement. However, nowhere was it written that no man will EVER know the hour of His coming before it happens.

But that is the plain meaning of what he goes on to say: that just as it was in the days of Noah--they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away--that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (Mt 24:38-39).

As a matter of fact, scripture reveals that those who are watching WILL know the hour of His coming before He comes for us, and that it will only be as a "thief" to those who are NOT watching, and only those NOT watching will not know the hour of His coming for His Church.

MM

That's not actually what he said, which was, because we do not know the day he will be coming, we are to watch so that we will be ready (living in obedience) when he does come (Mt 24:42, 44, 46, 48-51).

Loose handling of the Scriptures. . .for the sake of one's eschatology?

 

[Musicmaster]

But that is the plain meaning of what he goes on to say: that just as it was in the days of Noah--they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away--that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (Mt 24:38-39).

That's apples to oranges. I have never seen a hard-n-fast rule where the Lord must do the same in all scenarios. We are not talking about an imminent flood, but a deliverance and the wrath of the Lord poured out as never before. There were not stars falling from the heavens in Noah's day, and a number of other differences are also in existence.

But, it gets better:

That's not actually what he said, which was, because we do not know the day he will be coming, we are to watch so that we will be ready (living in obedience) when he does come (Mt 24:42, 44, 46, 48-51).

Loose handling of the Scriptures. . .for the sake of one's eschatology?

Then to bring this into better focus:

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

The condition of not being watchful will lead to the resulting coming of the Lord being as a "thief", AND the non-watchers will not know the hour of His coming upon the world to receive His Church until Himself in the air.

Conversely, for those who are watchful, His coming will therefore NOT be as a thief because they will KNOW the house of His coming, which can only be revealed to the watchers by the Lord prior to His coming for us.

So you see, it doesn't have to say the latter given that it is clearly implied within what IS stated in relation only to those who are NOT watching.

MM

 

[Ghada]

No, you missed what I stated. I said that it was a non-issue in relation to what I had said previously, not that it doesn't have any merit at all.

Ok. Tribulation and wrath of the wicked upon the righteous plays a part in Revelation.

it is ALL He who is releasing those things upon the earth on the basis of His wrath against Israel's continued rejection of Him

Disobedient Israel after the flesh.

Rom 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

I agree the last great antichrist will be a born Jew and convert to Christianity, as well as a great and mighty minister bringing both the Jews religion and Christianity together worldwide.

I believe there is Scripture showing he will be a Syrian Jew by birth.

and the unbelieving masses who have until then thumbed their noses at that the Lord and His Law.

And don't forget the Christians naming Christ in word, and thumbing their noses at the Lord's righteousness and His Law in deeds.

Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him,

The Lord first judges His servants between righteous wheat and unrighteous tares. Only the righteous are resurrected to meet with Him in the air. The tares are appointed with the hypocrites on earth.

As an Israeli, this is very disheartening to me, but I bow my knee before the Lord and worship His majesty and speak praises for His perfect Justice.

Amen. As do all repented saints in the Israel of God.

But neither Jews nor Christians can be much surprised anymore by false messiahs and christs coming and going, rising and falling, like all the rest.

The last great one before the Lord's return, is yet to come. Or at least, is yet to make himself known worldwide. We that are alive and remain will know him by all the world flocking to his own fasle gospel, including many namers of Christ.

2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The believers who are of the Church have golden crowns on their heads.

In all of the NT, only Revelation speaks of crowns of gold. The 24 elders around the throne. The ministers of king Abaddon with crowns like gold.

There are crowns without gold mentioned on the Dragon, the first beast, and the Lord returning to earth.

There are no crowns mentioned for any saints on earth, resurrected saints, nor eternal servants of the Lord in the new heaven and earth.

The tribulation saints who died within the tribulation, as you agreed, do not have crowns of gold or even a wreath on their heads. People have asked why the tribulation saints have no crowns,

They aren't mentioned.

And it's the same reason why no saints of history nor in future ever have any mentioned in Scripture.

and the only answer that the text seems to betray to us is because they did not set their faith upon Christ until He was pouring out the revelation of Himself through His wrath from which they suffered.

God does not hold any past lives against those repented for His sake, and are born again completely and holy new by Him.

{5:17} Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. {5:18} And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.

Those saints coming our of tribulation washed in the blood of the Lamb, are called blessed as any faithful member of the Lord's body.

And the first recorded saint in Christ Jesus martyred by tribulation and wrath of unrepentant Jews, led by Saul of Tarsus, is Stephen.

Given that they chose to not believe in Him during the Church age

The church age on earth at present, only ends at the Lord's return to resurrect all His saints unto Himself in the air.

The church age begins again on earth with the Lord's Mellinium, and the judgment of nations between neighborly sheep and uncharitable goats.

Based on what scripture?

The writ of sarcasm.

When the silence is that deafening, the obvious becomes meaningfully apparent.

When Scripture is silent, then any teaching becomes obvious: Not Scripture.

The first step to rightly dividing the word of truth is to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not.

The first rule of ministry is only to minister that which is written, and keep any private ideas to ourselves, or as speculation only.

Num 16:28
And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[Eleanor]

But that is the plain meaning of what he goes on to say: that just as it was in the days of Noah--they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away--that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (Mt 24:38-39).
That's not actually what he said, which was, because we do not know the day he will be coming, we are to watch so that we will be ready (living in obedience) when he does come (Mt 24:42, 44, 46, 48-51).

Loose handling of the Scriptures. . .for the sake of one's eschatology?

That's apples to oranges. I have never seen a hard-n-fast rule where the Lord must do the same in all scenarios.

I'm sure you'll understand if I choose to go with the words of Jesus over your own.

 

[Musicmaster]

They aren't mentioned.

And it's the same reason why no saints of history nor in future ever have any mentioned in Scripture.

Actually, the Church is shown to have crowns, so yes, there is a grouping of saints who do have that reward portrayed within scripture, they being the 24 elders, who are representative of the Church in Heaven before the seals are opened.

Those saints coming our of tribulation washed in the blood of the Lamb, are called blessed as any faithful member of the Lord's body.

Can you provide a reference for that?

The church age on earth at present, only ends at the Lord's return to resurrect all His saints unto Himself in the air.

The church age begins again on earth with the Lord's Mellinium, and the judgment of nations between neighborly sheep and uncharitable goats.

That sounds like Replacement Theology. The Millennium is focused upon Israel and Jerusalem as the government over the world at that time, not the Church.

The writ of sarcasm.

Would you clarify your meaning in this response?

When Scripture is silent, then any teaching becomes obvious: Not Scripture.

The first step to rightly dividing the word of truth is to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not.

The first rule of ministry is only to minister that which is written, and keep any private ideas to ourselves, or as speculation only.

There is a level of sanctimonious disregard in some systems of thought concerning this aspect of rightly dividing the word of truth. For John to have written down the very dictation from Yahshuah Himself in stating that it is those who are not watching are the ones who will not know the hour of His coming are those to whom it was be as a thief. It becomes glaringly clear that it is not the unbelievers who will know the hour of His coming. Given that the active element is to "watch," and then excluding the clear meaning for what is not specifically mentioned, that's a hermeneutic that creates more problems than it answer. The scriptures do not expressly say that it's ok to board a jet and fly to one's destination, but we do so regardless. So, please don't assume that rightly dividing the word of truth cannot provide a meaningful truth from what is stated in one regard, and that has an obvious connection by way of the flip-side (so to speak) that has solidity well rooted in what is expressly stated.

MM