A Preterist problem passage?

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have been thinking about this and I think the question may be unanswerable.

Really?

Here is the flaw: God is OTHER ... He is not like us, His ways are not like us and His thoughts are not like our thoughts. Imagine being a Nobel Prize Physicist and attempting to explain Quantum Entanglement to a 5 year old. You could use some analogies and explain some of the ideas, but the full depth would just be beyond the mental ability of a 5-year old brain to grasp.

We are made in Gods image, so we are like God at least we have tendencies.

So, too, when we attempt to understand emotional or value judgements about GOD ... WHY does God do ... WHAT does God think ... ultimately, our answers must be HUMAN thoughts about Human EMOTIONS and Human VALUES. We are as incapable of comprehending the THOUGHTS and WAYS of God as a 5-year-old is of comprehending advanced physics.

I think we can. If God creates evil.. then what will stop a rebellion in the future?

So our answers MUST be incorrect. We cannot possible wrap a human brain around what TRULY brings GOD GLORY. We cannot even comprehend the fullness of what God's Glory really is.

I think we can.

God uses our terms when he talking about himself all the time.

So I can give you a HUMAN answer, but not a GOD answer to your question.

God has answered

He so loved the world. He gave up everything to come to earth, live a life and suffer the death of the cross.

The GOD answer is unknowable.
The best we can say is "Whatever God says brings Him glory is what brings God glory."

If we can not know. We have no basis to trust.

Paul says the mystery has been revealed.. And warns gentiles not to boast.. Because God is a God who loves and keeps his promises

 

[atpollard]

Job 42:1-6 [NKJV]
Then Job answered the LORD and said: "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose [of Yours] can be withheld from You. [You asked], 'Who [is] this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; [You said], 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor [myself], And repent in dust and ashes."

Isaiah 55:8-9 [NKJV]
"For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

 

[prism]

V28+. The babies born at that time would see the utter destruction of the country and wish they had never been born. As a bonus, he quotes the same Amos line that is in the Rev about asking the mountains to cover them, to show how quickly these things were fulfilled. It is obviously a timestamp that cannot be tampered with.

Sorry about the misquoted verse (38 instead of 28)...
Luk 23:28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

I still don't see how this answers many of my questions. I was very aware of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. That's still doesn't answer the question as to whether the Deliver came out of Zion at that time.

 

[Arial]

We are made in Gods image, so we are like God at least we have tendencies.

We are similar to God in some ways. We are like him in no way

If God creates evil..

God doesn't create evil. Evil is not a creation.

He gave up everything to come to earth, live a life and suffer the death of the cross.

Did he give up his deity? How is it possible for God to give up anything? He would no longer be who he is.

If we can not know. We have no basis to trust.

We only know what he has shown us and he shows us that he is faithful, trustworthy, and able. There is much more we do not know and that is beyond the limits of the human mind.

Paul says the mystery has been revealed.

A mystery was revealed that Paul was speaking of. Not all mysteries.

 

[EarlyActs]

No it has not. Matt 24 has not been fulfilled yet

Because the Bible tells me things will happen. That have not happened yet.

There is an expectation. Even the disciples saw it.

When will you return

Jesus said it is not for them to know..

Re dies he reign?
You are falling exactly for what he warned about when he said it will not come by recognized signs etc.

He was enthroned and his kingdom is imperative; all men must obey; they don’t at their peril, Ps 2.

 

[EarlyActs]

No it has not. Matt 24 has not been fulfilled yet

Because the Bible tells me things will happen. That have not happened yet.

There is an expectation. Even the disciples saw it.

When will you return

Jesus said it is not for them to know..

There is a sense which you are right about them expecting one; but it was a mistake and he made that clear. In fact that was the zealot problem; they were quite literal. I know of no place where that problem is to be later embraced as good.

 

[EarlyActs]

No it has not. Matt 24 has not been fulfilled yet

Because the Bible tells me things will happen. That have not happened yet.

There is an expectation. Even the disciples saw it.

When will you return

Jesus said it is not for them to know..

My 24 has a very decisive switch at v29. It is very direct and current until that. The details before v29 are 1st century Judean and the quote of Dan 9 shows it is the 70th week.

So a blanket statement does no good.

It has also been suggested that their question ‘the end of the age?’ Is actually ‘when does temple Judaism end and your kingdom take over?’ And in fact there was overlap with a warning to leave the old because they would be ‘crucifying the Son again.’

 

[EarlyActs]

Isn't it more of a TYPOLOGY?
[PS. I think it was Hosea 10:8 [NIV] The high places of wickedness will be destroyed--it is the sin of Israel. Thorns and thistles will grow up and cover their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!"]

It seems to be saying that just like Hosea warned Israel and Babylon came and destroyed them [God's punishment for a nation of sin], so I [Jesus] am warning this generation that (Rome) will come and do the exact same thing [in AD 70] for the same reason! A final warning to "turn to God and worship ME correctly, or be destroyed with the city and empty altars!"

But Jesus own lines say that those babies will wish they not lived.

I’m trying to show it’s a timestamp. It’s not any further future than their adult lives.

 

[prism]

V28+. The babies born at that time would see the utter destruction of the country and wish they had never been born. As a bonus, he quotes the same Amos line that is in the Rev about asking the mountains to cover them, to show how quickly these things were fulfilled. It is obviously a timestamp that cannot be tampered with.

I agree with @atpollard, it is more a typology or even a Hebrew idiom. There's even a reference to it here..

Revelation 6:16 NASB95
and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

 

[EarlyActs]

I agree with @atpollard, it is more a typology or even a Hebrew idiom. There's even a reference to it here..

Revelation 6:16 NASB95
and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

It is that, but that does not mean it is not a timestamp about that generation. Look how many serious warnings there are to that generation! This is one of them.

 

[EarlyActs]

Sorry about the misquoted verse (38 instead of 28)...
Luk 23:28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

I still don't see how this answers many of my questions. I was very aware of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. That's still doesn't answer the question as to whether the Deliver came out of Zion at that time.

The Deliverer was Christs Gospel. The verb to take away sins is the same description John B gave of the Lamb. The new covenant came into effect.

You seem to miss the forest for standing too close to a tree.

The event that pulverized that nation in that generation was called by Christ in Luke 21 ‘the fulfillment of all the wrath written against Israel.’ Likewise Paul in I Th 2 saying the wrath was filled up, even before it happened.

This discussion started when you said my view of the destruction of the nation in that generation was “hearsay.”

It is actually and simply exactly what Daniel 9 said would happen if the antecedents are properly assigned.

The Luke narrative is punctuated by reference to the horrid event coming on Israel if it does not serve Christ. Matt 21–24 each have clear reference to it.

That generation of Israel was supposed to be missionaries to the world instead of freedom fighters at the temple in a supposed messianic zealot last stand. The 5000 of Acts 4 was a good start. It is a very dramatic tension, and more than one dramatic presentation has got it right. But others treat the zealots as the tragic heroes!

 

[prism]

It is that, but that does not mean it is not a timestamp about that generation. Look how many serious warnings there are to that generation! This is one of them.

Serious warning yes, but I'm not too sure about a time stamp.

 

[prism]

The Deliverer was Christs Gospel.

This is where it gets weird, the gospel was preached well before 70AD.

The new covenant came into effect.

You seem to miss the forest for standing too close to a tree.

And some people cling to the tree called 70AD.

The event that pulverized that nation in that generation was called by Christ in Luke 21 ‘the fulfillment of all the wrath written against Israel.’ Likewise Paul in I Th 2 saying the wrath was filled up, even before it happened.

It's strange that the Jews continued to suffer persecution throughout the centuries, culminating in the Holocaust, which made 70AD look like child's play in comparison.

This discussion started when you said my view of the destruction of the nation in that generation was “hearsay.”

Heresy. I still do when it comes to preterism.
As far as here-say goes, anything outside of scripture is just that (here-say) which happened in the first century.

It is actually and simply exactly what Daniel 9 said would happen if the antecedents are properly assigned.

I'm not sure which verse you are referring to, but this I know the 70 weeks are up for debate amongst Christians.

The Luke narrative is punctuated by reference to the horrid event coming on Israel if it does not serve Christ. Matt 21–24 each have clear reference to it.

Is that what Christian is divided when it comes to eschatology? Or are all Christians preterists? Even amongst preterists there are differences of opinion.

That generation of Israel was supposed to be missionaries to the world instead of freedom fighters at the temple in a supposed messianic zealot last stand. The 5000 of Acts 4 was a good start. It is a very dramatic tension, and more than one dramatic presentation has got it right. But others treat the zealots as the tragic heroes!

I thought the Jews were to believe in Jesus, their promised Messiah, otherwise Christians today are in big trouble as we sit as freedom fighters on the WWW, instead of going out into the world with the Great Commission as our Lord told us. Or does our salvation depend on how well we evangelize the world?

 

[EarlyActs]

Serious warning yes, but I'm not too sure about a time stamp.

It had to happen when those babies were adults...

 

[EarlyActs]

This is where it gets weird, the gospel was preached well before 70AD.

And some people cling to the tree called 70AD.

It's strange that the Jews continued to suffer persecution throughout the centuries, culminating in the Holocaust, which made 70AD look like child's play in comparison.

Heresy. I still do when it comes to preterism.
As far as here-say goes, anything outside of scripture is just that (here-say) which happened in the first century.

I'm not sure which verse you are referring to, but this I know the 70 weeks are up for debate amongst Christians.

Is that what Christian is divided when it comes to eschatology? Or are all Christians preterists? Even amongst preterists there are differences of opinion.

I thought the Jews were to believe in Jesus, their promised Messiah, otherwise Christians today are in big trouble as we sit as freedom fighters on the WWW, instead of going out into the world with the Great Commission as our Lord told us. Or does our salvation depend on how well we evangelize the world?

 

[EarlyActs]

Hi,
I answer one line per post.

re the Gospel before 70.
It was preached for 40 years and that should ring a bell. It should ring the bell of Hebrews that was also comparing that decisive generation to the wilderness generation that would perish.

Paul said many terminal things ahead of time anyway, like I Th 2: that the full wrath was already upon Israel.

So there is nothing weird about saying that the Deliverer came from Zion as being a completed thing in Rom 11 from the OT quotes usee which has the intention of getting as many Jews to be evangelists as possible. It is not any sort of a prediction about the race-nation, because it is already based 'Israel' on the alterations made in ch 2, 3, 9 'not all Israel are Israel.'

Of course, it has been preached since then, too, but it had the dynamic in that generation of
diverting that people from a dangerous road. They ignored it.

 

[prism]

It had to happen when those babies were adults...

I still know of those Jews who have come to saving faith, even after 70AD.

 

[prism]

not all Israel are Israel.

That is dividingline of the true Israel (believing line of Abraham-->Isaac-->Jacob) from the non believing line of (Abraham-->Isaac-->Jacob).
The former are the true Israel, not believing Christians. Thus all Israel will be saved!

 

[EarlyActs]

This is where it gets weird, the gospel was preached well before 70AD.

And some people cling to the tree called 70AD.

It's strange that the Jews continued to suffer persecution throughout the centuries, culminating in the Holocaust, which made 70AD look like child's play in comparison.

Heresy. I still do when it comes to preterism.
As far as here-say goes, anything outside of scripture is just that (here-say) which happened in the first century.

I'm not sure which verse you are referring to, but this I know the 70 weeks are up for debate amongst Christians.

Is that what Christian is divided when it comes to eschatology? Or are all Christians preterists? Even amongst preterists there are differences of opinion.

I thought the Jews were to believe in Jesus, their promised Messiah, otherwise Christians today are in big trouble as we sit as freedom fighters on the WWW, instead of going out into the world with the Great Commission as our Lord told us. Or does our salvation depend on how well we evangelize the world?

the forest
There is an abundance of demonstration that the Gospel and that generation were the decisive time that the prophets were speaking of. There is abundant expectation that the world would end after the destruction of Israel. Paul even said in two different ways that the Gospel had reached the known world, Col 2, I Tim 3, so that he believed that had been accomplished.

 

[EarlyActs]

This is where it gets weird, the gospel was preached well before 70AD.

And some people cling to the tree called 70AD.

It's strange that the Jews continued to suffer persecution throughout the centuries, culminating in the Holocaust, which made 70AD look like child's play in comparison.

Heresy. I still do when it comes to preterism.
As far as here-say goes, anything outside of scripture is just that (here-say) which happened in the first century.

I'm not sure which verse you are referring to, but this I know the 70 weeks are up for debate amongst Christians.

Is that what Christian is divided when it comes to eschatology? Or are all Christians preterists? Even amongst preterists there are differences of opinion.

I thought the Jews were to believe in Jesus, their promised Messiah, otherwise Christians today are in big trouble as we sit as freedom fighters on the WWW, instead of going out into the world with the Great Commission as our Lord told us. Or does our salvation depend on how well we evangelize the world?

the new covenant
do you have any doubt that the new covenant is in effect? that Hebrews makes that clear? that 2 Cor 3-5 make it clear?