• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

A different gospel?

This is nonsense. The Bible does not have to be a science textbook (it's not), in order for its narrative to be true as written.

Adam was created directly from earth. He did not evolve from an animal. Any teaching claiming that Adam evolved from an animal is anti-Christian and those who proclaim it are heretics.

There can be no "agreeing to disagree" about this. I will not fellowship with people who claim that man evolved from animals.

Death is the result of sin and sin entered the world through Adam.
You don't "accept" that humans and primates, allegedly, had a common ancestor, since it's not true. You refuse to believe the Bible and, instead, you declare a lie.

Adam had no ancestor, since he was created directly from earth. Man did not evolve, he was created, within a period of 24 hours, with an evening and a morning.

Do habitual liars go to hell? If they don't repent, then they do, yes.
You are promoting a false gospel.

We are told to speak the truth in love so I will do my best to. You may disagree vociferously about how to interpret Genesis and think your way is the "biblical" way. You may think believers who recognize evolution are backsliders, compromisers of the worst kind, in grave error, on a slippery slope. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. But when you call fellow believers heretics destined to hell you take it too far, my friend. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Our common salvation does not depend on whether we recognize evolution or whether we think the earth is old or young or whether we accept Calvin or Luther or whether we like or hate NT Wright. None of that matters when it comes to salvation, and I'll thank you to remember that.
 
I would say that the crux of the OP is whether the New Perspective on Paul, is or is not; the epitome of Judaizing. As for the notion of 'always be reforming', it doesn't get more Reforming than the Council of Jerusalem. The New Perspective on Paul can't be valid; because of the Old Perspective of Peter...
I don't see the OP of Peter in the Council of Jerusalem. I see this:

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

This alone does not tell us if it's OP or NP. Best
 
I don't see the OP of Peter in the Council of Jerusalem. I see this:

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

This alone does not tell us if it's OP or NP. Best
What it does tell us is the New Perspective on Saint Peter; right?

And by Fiat, wouldn't this Perspective also have been Paul's Perspective; as the Perspective of the Church?
 
Last edited:
What it does tell us is the New Perspective of Saint Peter; right?
Honestly, I know enough to know I don't know nearly enough about this subject lol 😆 But I always try to stay open to the chance that I could be wrong. As I said I've believed the Old Perspective for over forty years, and only now am reconsidering in light of the new evidence coming out. I just got the new book I mentioned in Post 236. I will let you know what I think after I finish. Blessings.
 
Honestly, I know enough to know I don't know nearly enough about this subject lol 😆 But I always try to stay open to the chance that I could be wrong. As I said I've believed the Old Perspective for over forty years, and only now am reconsidering in light of the new evidence coming out. I just got the new book I mentioned in Post 236. I will let you know what I think after I finish. Blessings.
Okay...

What it does tell us is the New Perspective on Saint Peter; right?

And by Fiat, wouldn't this Perspective also have been Paul's Perspective; as it is the Church's Perspective?

Always be Reforming. The NPP is not Reformation; if it is, the Judaizing Roman Catholic church had a New Perspective on Paul too...
 
Last edited:
Okay...

What it does tell us is the New Perspective on Saint Peter; right?

And by Fiat, wouldn't this Perspective also have been Paul's Perspective; as the Perspective of the Church?

Always be Reforming. The NPP is not Reformation; if it is, the Judaizing Roman Catholic church had a New Perspective on Paul too...
Excellent questions. Gotta run but I'll get back to you. But first I want to sincerely thank you for the tone and demeanor of your comments. You are proof that it is possible to have a respectful exchange on an issue that I know is very emotional and angering to a lot of people. Thank you again. I will return :)
 
I must admit for forty plus years of my life I was taught and have believed the OP that this was all about merit works of righteousness trying to earn salvation, but the evidence for the NP has challenged me to reconsider. I noticed things in Galatians for example I never noticed before how it really does seem to be focused on Jewish customs that are identifying marks of a Jew that distinguish from Gentiles:
That is because that is the particular issue the false teachers were bringing in, and why Paul wrote the letter. Why one would use that to disqualify the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus as sufficient for salvation through faith in His life death, and resurrection, is suspect. Do we still have to merit our salvation through good works? Something that the Law was given to show us we could not do and therefore drive us to Christ? That is the opposite of good news. Did Jesus not do enough to save us? Does what was said of Abraham, that his faith was counted as righteousness mean nothing in Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension?

You see, that view not only kills all hope, it removes His having done anything to put any in a position of being justified before God. It removes all power of the cross by removing the penal substitution of Himself in our place, taking the just penalty for our sins, removing their power from us. It is heresy.
 
That is because that is the particular issue the false teachers were bringing in, and why Paul wrote the letter. Why one would use that to disqualify the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus as sufficient for salvation through faith in His life death, and resurrection, is suspect. Do we still have to merit our salvation through good works? Something that the Law was given to show us we could not do and therefore drive us to Christ? That is the opposite of good news. Did Jesus not do enough to save us? Does what was said of Abraham, that his faith was counted as righteousness mean nothing in Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension?

You see, that view not only kills all hope, it removes His having done anything to put any in a position of being justified before God. It removes all power of the cross by removing the penal substitution of Himself in our place, taking the just penalty for our sins, removing their power from us. It is heresy.
The New Perspective on Paul, is like taking out the Checkerboard; and only using the red Checkers. It excludes the black Checkers of Saint Peter; red can't Lose...

Sound Hermeneutics. This stuff is pretty simple...
 
@Eleanor

I think you both will enjoy and appreciate this if you have a chance.

Very informative read. I would have to say at this point, considering the sources behind NP that yes, it is deliberate and with malicious destructive intent, attack on Christianity. Rather than simply misguided.
 
That is because that is the particular issue the false teachers were bringing in, and why Paul wrote the letter. Why one would use that to disqualify the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus as sufficient for salvation through faith in His life death, and resurrection, is suspect. Do we still have to merit our salvation through good works? Something that the Law was given to show us we could not do and therefore drive us to Christ? That is the opposite of good news. Did Jesus not do enough to save us? Does what was said of Abraham, that his faith was counted as righteousness mean nothing in Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension?

You see, that view not only kills all hope, it removes His having done anything to put any in a position of being justified before God. It removes all power of the cross by removing the penal substitution of Himself in our place, taking the just penalty for our sins, removing their power from us. It is heresy.
I wonder if that's part of the problem/misunderstanding. From what I can tell, no one (in the NP) is saying that we can earn salvation through righteous works. From what I can tell everyone still rejects that. We can't earn our way to heaven! Amen? I think the issue is whether the salvation by works controversy of the Reformation against Catholic Church was inadevertently (and anachronistically) read back into the Bible when Paul was talking about something else. The more we learn about Pharisaic belief of the time the more it seems like the long time assumption that the Pharisees were just legalists trying to earn their way into heaven is an incorrect one or at least an oversimplified and caricatured view, and that they did believe in grace and forgiveness. Their views were certainly more nuanced than the common assumptions give them credit.

So it's not that we can earn our way to heaven through righteous works (that's still false!), it's just to say that it's possible that Paul was talking about something else in the first century than the Catholic-Protestant works controversy 1500 years later (and indeed the first and second century church understanding of Paul seems to back this up).
 
Very informative read. I would have to say at this point, considering the sources behind NP that yes, it is deliberate and with malicious destructive intent, attack on Christianity. Rather than simply misguided.
I find a lot of problems and errors in Phil Johnson's analysis. I just don't know if I have the time to do a detailed rebuttal <sigh>

I will note this much, however, Phil's article was written in 2010 prior to the latest evidence (2022) we have on the subject. See the new book I mentioned in Post 236.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if that's part of the problem/misunderstanding. From what I can tell, no one (in the NP) is saying that we can earn salvation through righteous works. From what I can tell everyone still rejects that. We can't earn our way to heaven! Amen? I think the issue is whether the salvation by works controversy of the Reformation against Catholic Church was inadevertently (and anachronistically) read back into the Bible when Paul was talking about something else. The more we learn about Pharisaic belief of the time the more it seems like the long time assumption that the Pharisees were just legalists trying to earn their way into heaven is an incorrect one or at least an oversimplified and caricatured view, and that they did believe in grace and forgiveness. Their views were certainly more nuanced than the common assumptions give them credit.

So it's not that we can earn our way to heaven through righteous works (that's still false!), it's just to say that it's possible based that Paul was talking about something else in the first century than the Catholic-Protestant works controversy 1500 years later (and indeed the first and second century church understanding of Paul seems to back this up).
I guess it is safe to say you have bought into NP?
 
I guess it is safe to say you have bought into NP?
I'm a scientist, my friend, and so I'm skeptical by nature, not given to flights of fancy, and have a pretty thick skull lol 😆 so change doesnt come fast to me but only after careful meticulous study. I will respond the same way I did in post 244:

"Honestly, I know enough to know I don't know nearly enough about this subject lol 😆 But I always try to stay open to the chance that I could be wrong. As I said I've believed the Old Perspective for over forty years, and only now am reconsidering in light of the new evidence coming out. I just got the new book I mentioned in Post 236. I will let you know what I think after I finish. Blessings"

That said, I am very, very committed to following the evidence where it leads even if it goes against long time cherished beliefs that I have held
 
IN ADDITION TO:

Hypothetical question: What if it turned out that the New Perspective view that the “works of the law” refer to Sabbath observance, food laws, and circumcision—those things that identified Jews--- is essentially what the early fathers understood by “works of the law,” while the so-called “old perspective” (that it represents the Judaizers’ attempt to secure salvation through moral effort) lacks similar parallels?
Well, Paul's meaning is not up for debate, for it is clearly stated in Ac 15:
v. 1 - "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." And to that end is
v. 5 - "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.' "
What if it turned out that Calvin in his commentary on Romans says about 3:20 that “it is a matter of doubt, even among the learned, what the works of the law mean.”
Context. . .the issue is whether it means circumcision only, or the ceremonial law only, or all Mosaic law, or all works of merit.
That is not a negation of Paul's meaning of "works of the law."
And what if Calvin then cites Chrysostom, Origen and Jerome as saying these refer to the Jewish “ceremonies” (which is wrong in Calvin’s view), and then Augustine that these are any works done apart from God’s grace (which for Calvin is also an incorrect limitation).
Because Calvin correctly understood it (as usual) to be all works of merit, with or without God's enablement, as the NT shows it to be; e.g.,
2 Tim 1:9, Tit 3:5, Ro 4:2, Eph 2:8-9,
And then, what if (surprisingly and uncharacteristically) Calvin doesn’t cite any of the fathers in favor of his view (that these are all works, even those produced by God in his own people)?
He doesn't need to cite anyone. It is clearly stated by Paul, which is authoritative to the church.
And what if it turned out that Calvin’s assessment is basically right — that the early church holds to a quite different view of “works of the law” than he does?
The only difference Calvin asserts is that "works of the law" refers to all works of merit, whereas the early church's "quite different view of works" is limited to the ceremonial law (if, in fact, that is even the case).

And Calvin's view of "works of the law" is the same as Paul's; i.e., all works of merit (2 Tim 1:9, Tit 3:5, Ro 4:2, Eph 2:8-9).
What if Calvin’s earliest source on this, Origen, says in his Romans commentary (around 240 A.D.) that “the works that Paul repudiates and frequently criticizes are not the works of righteousness that are commanded in the law, but those in which those who keep the law according to the flesh boast; i.e., the circumcision of the flesh, the sacrificial rituals, the observance of Sabbaths or new moon festivals"?
Yes, boasting is precisely the issue, going all the way back to Abraham whose righteousness was not merited, but imputed (Ro 4:2, 1 Co 1:29, Eph 2:9).
It's about removing all means of boasting or taking credit for God's work of salvation and justification (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3;28),
it's about rendering mankind powerless to share in his glory, which is justly due him, and him alone (Isa 42:8, 48:11).
And what if it turned out that even prior to this from Paul to Irenaeus (around 180 AD) that this (so-called "new perspective" type) understanding of “works of the law” is ubiquitous in the tradition prior to Origen.

Would the "new perspective" view of "works of the law" still be heretical and anti-Christian?
It matters not what early Christians believed if it does not correspond to what can be demonstrated from Scripture.
And that "works of the law" means all works of merit is clearly demonstrated in the NT.
 
Last edited:
I'm a scientist, my friend, and so I'm skeptical by nature, not given to flights of fancy, and have a pretty thick skull lol 😆 so change doesnt come fast to me but only after careful meticulous study. I will respond the same way I did in post 244:

"Honestly, I know enough to know I don't know nearly enough about this subject lol 😆 But I always try to stay open to the chance that I could be wrong. As I said I've believed the Old Perspective for over forty years, and only now am reconsidering in light of the new evidence coming out. I just got the new book I mentioned in Post 236. I will let you know what I think after I finish. Blessings"

That said, I am very, very committed to following the evidence where it leads even if it goes against long time cherished beliefs that I have held
What about the New Perspective on Peter?
 
But what if the merit view is incorrect and not supported by early church history? What if turns out that the "new perspective" take on works of the law us actually the original first and second century church perspective that Calvin knew about but rejected?
It is demonstrated from the whole NT that it is not incorrect.
 
What about the New Perspective on Peter?

Shoot.png
 
I wonder if that's part of the problem/misunderstanding. From what I can tell, no one (in the NP) is saying that we can earn salvation through righteous works. From what I can tell everyone still rejects that. We can't earn our way to heaven! Amen? I think the issue is whether the salvation by works controversy of the Reformation against Catholic Church was inadevertently (and anachronistically) read back into the Bible when Paul was talking about something else.
Read Ac 15:1, you can see what the issue is, and stop beating this dead horse.
The more we learn about Pharisaic belief of the time the more it seems like the long time assumption that the Pharisees were just legalists trying to earn their way into heaven is an incorrect one or at least an oversimplified and caricatured view,
What do you conclude from Ac 15:1?
and that they did believe in grace and forgiveness. Their views were certainly more nuanced than the common assumptions give them credit.

So it's not that we can earn our way to heaven through righteous works (that's still false!), it's just to say that it's possible that Paul was talking about something else in the first century than the Catholic-Protestant works controversy 1500 years later (and indeed the first and second century church understanding of Paul seems to back this up).
No need for all the hypothasizing, what do you conclude from Ac 15:1?
 
I'm a scientist, my friend, and so I'm skeptical by nature, not given to flights of fancy, and have a pretty thick skull lol 😆 so change doesnt come fast to me but only after careful meticulous study. I will respond the same way I did in post 244:
"Honestly, I know enough to know I don't know nearly enough about this subject lol 😆 But I always try to stay open to the chance that I could be wrong. As I said I've believed the Old Perspective for over forty years, and only now am reconsidering in light of the new evidence coming out. I just got the new book I mentioned in Post 236. I will let you know what I think after I finish. Blessings"
That said, I am very, very committed to following the evidence where it leads even if it goes against long time cherished beliefs that I have held
But you are leaving out the major part of evidence, your thorough grasp of Paul's teaching.
Is your Biblical understanding of Paul thorough enough to evaluate Wright's assertion?
Are you in a position to see all the things impacted and/or contradicted in the NT by Wright's assertion?
Are you having to take Wright's word regarding this NP?
As long as you are bouncing one man's word off another, you are not in a position to correctly evaluate NP.
 
Back
Top