Why Are We Here? A Perspective

[Arial]

As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?

 

[makesends]

As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?

Not to say that your observations are not practical —they definitely are— but I'm a monergist concerning Sanctification —not just Justification. Upon reading your last question I'm thinking our yearning is not what is effectual in maturing, though it can be, no doubt, a result of maturing. I can't help but look at my own life. My yearning has to do with being so tired of my sin, and with being rid of it, and with seeing him as he is. It has little to do with actual obedience —that is, unless God uses it for THIS current weak, momentary, decision, then another. It is not my being motivated, not my decision, to do things differently that causes growth.

 

[Hazelelponi]

but I'm a monergist concerning Sanctification —not just Justification.

Perhaps you should clarify. I'm monergist concerning sanctification but what I mean when I say that is that God gives us the desires and the yearnings which are holy. I don't mean there's nothing we do during sanctification.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Sorry for asking the clarification, I just think it might be helpful to better understand your point.

 

[Arial]

Not to say that your observations are not practical —they definitely are— but I'm a monergist concerning Sanctification —not just Justification. Upon reading your last question I'm thinking our yearning is not what is effectual in maturing, though it can be, no doubt, a result of maturing. I can't help but look at my own life. My yearning has to do with being so tired of my sin, and with being rid of it, and with seeing him as he is. It has little to do with actual obedience —that is, unless God uses it for THIS current weak, momentary, decision, then another. It is not my being motivated, not my decision, to do things differently that causes growth.

I am a monergistic concerning sanctification also. I was not suggesting otherwise. But that does not eliminate human responsibility. My point is, would we view the world and our lives a bit differently if we realized that we are a part of, are living in and living out, the greatest story of all? Redemption. It really had nothing to do with obedience directly.

Though it isn't yet the end of the story, we have been told the end of the story. That is what we are walking towards, just as the ancients were in the story walking towards the same thing. Whether they knew it or not. We know it.

 

[makesends]

Arial said:
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?

Perhaps you should clarify. I'm monergist concerning sanctification but what I mean when I say that is that God gives us the desires and the yearnings which are holy. I don't mean there's nothing we do during sanctification.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Sorry for asking the clarification, I just think it might be helpful to better understand your point.

This is one of those situations where the same words in the same sequence can be taken to imply / suggest [at least] two different things, and can be viewed by people of opposite camps as 'truth'. One of the most egregious that we Calvinistic (monergistic) believers run into is those whose worldview seems to us to deny Grace. Some of us, while believing in the grace of God for monergistic Salvation, also consider the subsequent Sanctification of the believer to also be monergistic. While granted, I can see the difference and the importance of the distinction between the monergism of Faith given, vs the monergism of Obedience given, I see it as all still the work of God.

When the Bible says, "...it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.", the Arminian can take it to apply to motivation to bring you to choose to obey, which choosing is the cause of obedience. The Calvinist will say that even that choosing is given by the Spirit of God. I say that even that ability to do, whether chosen or by even sometimes merely finding myself obeying/ preferring to obey 'this time'/ or whatever other description one might want to use, it is so foreign to my bent to sin, that I can only credit it to God. Ha! —Even those words can be accepted by the Arminian, yet their thinking is entirely centered around their actions/willingness toward good and not on the source of all goodness. They even accuse us of denying responsibility.

@Arial spoke in words that the Arminians would happily accept. While she is right, and what she said was well said, the last paragraph/ last sentence speaks in terms of our recognizing that fact giving us the motivation to do what is right. I agree that it does; my comment speaks to the fact that even then, the more wisdom and maturity I gain seems to push me into knowing Christ better, but not into being what is objectively obedient—at least, not according to my conscience and what seems to me empirical evidence. I.e. it is not MY doing that results in obedience, just because I 'finally' (or whatever) realize some fact. I know she did not say it did, but I have a soapbox to stand on, and by golly, I'ma stand on it!

 

[Arial]

Arial said:
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?



This is one of those situations where the same words in the same sequence can be taken to imply / suggest [at least] two different things, and can be viewed by people of opposite camps as 'truth'. One of the most egregious that we Calvinistic (monergistic) believers run into is those whose worldview seems to us to deny Grace. Some of us, while believing in the grace of God for monergistic Salvation, also consider the subsequent Sanctification of the believer to also be monergistic. While granted, I can see the difference and the importance of the distinction between the monergism of Faith given, vs the monergism of Obedience given, I see it as all still the work of God.

When the Bible says, "...it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.", the Arminian can take it to apply to motivation to bring you to choose to obey, which choosing is the cause of obedience. The Calvinist will say that even that choosing is given by the Spirit of God. I say that even that ability to do, whether chosen or by even sometimes merely finding myself obeying/ preferring to obey 'this time'/ or whatever other description one might want to use, it is so foreign to my bent to sin, that I can only credit it to God. Ha! —Even those words can be accepted by the Arminian, yet their thinking is entirely centered around their actions/willingness toward good and not on the source of all goodness. They even accuse us of denying responsibility.

@Arial spoke in words that the Arminians would happily accept. While she is right, and what she said was well said, the last paragraph/ last sentence speaks in terms of our recognizing that fact giving us the motivation to do what is right. I agree that it does; my comment speaks to the fact that even then, the more wisdom and maturity I gain seems to push me into knowing Christ better, but not into being what is objectively obedient—at least, not according to my conscience and what seems to me empirical evidence. I.e. it is not MY doing that results in obedience, just because I 'finally' (or whatever) realize some fact. I know she did not say it did, but I have a soapbox to stand on, and by golly, I'ma stand on it!

Actually, I wasn't speaking about obedience at all, or us being motivated to increase our obedience.

I was simply pointing out something I thought about on different occasions, one of them this morning because of a thread that @EarlyActs started on the historic aspects of Christianity, as opposed to its being simply a personal relationship with Jesus in the sense that much of the church mistakenly think of that relationship. Which is, it is inward looking and inwardly motivated according to what MacAruthur calls "felt needs".

I was simply sharing something I find awe inspiring that if grasped should, at least in the moment we are pondering it, be awe inspiring. And change the way we look at the world and even our lives. We are living, active, members in the midst of the greatest story of all. Historical figures, living our lives as the redeemed in the middle (or end who knows) of the epic historical progression of the Covenant of Redemption.

The lives of those living in Israel during the Old Covenant, were ordinary, as ordinary as ours. All those wars we read of in the OT, were real wars with tons of back story and inner workings among people, political intrigue, fear, conversations with wives and children, meals cooked, children taught, clothes washed. And most probably had no idea that what they were really doing was playing a role in redemption.

 

[makesends]

Actually, I wasn't speaking about obedience at all, or us being motivated to increase our obedience.

I was simply pointing out something I thought about on different occasions, one of them this morning because of a thread that @EarlyActs started on the historic aspects of Christianity, as opposed to its being simply a personal relationship with Jesus in the sense that much of the church mistakenly think of that relationship. Which is, it is inward looking and inwardly motivated according to what MacAruthur calls "felt needs".

I was simply sharing something I find awe inspiring that if grasped should, at least in the moment we are pondering it, be awe inspiring. And change the way we look at the world and even our lives. We are living, active, members in the midst of the greatest story of all. Historical figures, living our lives as the redeemed in the middle (or end who knows) of the epic historical progression of the Covenant of Redemption.

The lives of those living in Israel during the Old Covenant, were ordinary, as ordinary as ours. All those wars we read of in the OT, were real wars with tons of back story and inner workings among people, political intrigue, fear, conversations with wives and children, meals cooked, children taught, clothes washed. And most probably had no idea that what they were really doing was playing a role in redemption.

AMEN all that! Hard to believe sometimes, that we will in Heaven attribute it all to Christ without a tear in the eye—so often here I am reduced to sobs at thanking him for who he is and what he has done and admiring him for what he is and for his wisdom and purity.

 

[Arial]

AMEN all that! Hard to believe sometimes, that we will in Heaven attribute it all to Christ without a tear in the eye—so often here I am reduced to sobs at thanking him for who he is and what he has done and admiring him for what he is and for his wisdom and purity.

Here is a thought relating to the fact that we are living in the midst of the ongoing plan of redemption established in the Covenant of Redemption. The right now/not yet of it.

In the midst of this fallen world Jesus is gathering his flock, his people. They hear his voice and follow him. When all have been gathered, then he will return.

All those who have been gathered are his representatives, and according to his will in his purpose for each of us in this unfolding drama of gathering.

When we look in our minds at all those who have been gathered, and how God sees us now as wearing the robes of Christ's righteousness; and has us sealed in Christ so that he will lose none who the Father has given him; when our mind wanders over the vast number of individuals of all time, but more concentrated in the now (those who are alive), we can see that each one, in the very fact of their redemption and sealing and purpose, are a glory to God. Not for him, but to him. We are a reflection of his glory and power and goodness---all his attributes--in Christ and only in Christ, just as Adam and Eve were created to be.

And doesn't that then, if even for a moment, in the contemplating, cause your heart to burst with love for each of them?

 

[Eleanor]

Arial said:
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?



This is one of those situations where the same words in the same sequence can be taken to imply / suggest [at least] two different things, and can be viewed by people of opposite camps as 'truth'. One of the most egregious that we Calvinistic (monergistic) believers run into is those whose worldview seems to us to deny Grace. Some of us, while believing in the grace of God for monergistic Salvation, also consider the subsequent Sanctification of the believer to also be monergistic. While granted, I can see the difference and the importance of the distinction between the monergism of Faith given, vs the monergism of Obedience given, I see it as all still the work of God.

When the Bible says, "...it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.", the Arminian can take it to apply to motivation to bring you to choose to obey, which choosing is the cause of obedience. The Calvinist will say that even that choosing is given by the Spirit of God. I say that even that ability to do, whether chosen or by even sometimes merely finding myself obeying/ preferring to obey 'this time'/ or whatever other description one might want to use, it is so foreign to my bent to sin, that I can only credit it to God. Ha! —Even those words can be accepted by the Arminian, yet their thinking is entirely centered around their actions/willingness toward good and not on the source of all goodness. They even accuse us of denying responsibility.

@Arial spoke in words that the Arminians would happily accept. While she is right, and what she said was well said, the last paragraph/ last sentence speaks in terms of our recognizing that fact giving us the motivation to do what is right. I agree that it does; my comment speaks to the fact that even then, the more wisdom and maturity I gain seems to push me into knowing Christ better, but not into being what is objectively obedient—at least, not according to my conscience and what seems to me empirical evidence. I.e. it is not MY doing that results in obedience, just because I 'finally' (or whatever) realize some fact. I know she did not say it did, but I have a soapbox to stand on, and by golly, I'ma stand on it!

Well, who in their right mind would deny you your soapbox?

Preach away, brother! And I'll pass the collection plate. . .