WW III and the rebuilding of the temple

[CrowCross]

Then why would God care if a future temple was desecrated?

I don't think the verse talks about God caring....it talks about the anti-christ declaring himself to be God.

No but the beast declared himself god over everything including the church. That’s why the saints were killed because they refused to worship him

OK.

 

[CrowCross]

I suggest you get a good comprehensive study Bible to help with some of these interpretations. I recommend the Reformation Study Bible as it gives historic and cultural things that play into the interpretation. And those things are important. On these disputed matters it also gives all the main interpretations of difficult passages and the reasoning behind it. It is a very good and reliable source.

Let me tell you again....first I agree with and enjoy a lot of your post, BUT, on this issue....show me the history.

It almost seems as if there is a hatred for the pre-trib view.

 

[Arial]

Let me tell you again....first I agree with and enjoy a lot of your post, BUT, on this issue....show me the history.

It almost seems as if there is a hatred for the pre-trib view.

Actually, I was just trying to help so I do not understand where this came from.

And pre-trib what? The history of what?

 

[CrowCross]

Actually, I was just trying to help so I do not understand where this came from.

And pre-trib what? The history of what?

man as it relates to preterism.

 

[TMSO]

The Bible does not say there will be or must be a war that will devastate the world.

It doesn't? The four horsemen? I mean, one of them is named War. He comes after the one that conquers through the power of peace. Kind of like how Trump spent his four years dealing in peace to the point that he almost ended the Korean War. Then Biden came in and undid a lot of what Trump had done. Basically because he is a strong supporter of the military complex that thrives on war.

The Bible does not say that a third temple will be rebuilt. It does not say that the animal sacrifices will be reinstated.

That depends on the interpretation of prophecy, which, in this case, is your belief forced on it. My thoughts have actually changed as I have considered other people's interpreation. Specifically the Early Church Fathers. They speak of a rebuilt temple. This was after 70 AD. It was also only within a century or two of 70 AD. Some also spoke of the one who restrains the unlawful one being Rome. As long as Rome exists, Jesus second coming isn't happening. Rome existly until 1453 AD, when the Turks took Constantinople, I mean Istanbul, not Constantinople. There was an Early Church Father who bemoaned the fact that Paul said we are to pray for those in authority. He bemoaned that they were told to pray for that very institution that held back the final days.

The Bible does not say that we are to be watching for signs of the coming season. So why are so many doing that and using the signs of the times to interpret the Bible?

Then why did Jesus give the parable of the fig tree? We are to be watching, but what we aren't to be doing is trying to figure out when Jesus will return the Kingdom to Israel. That is not for us to know. This is why the parable of the Master and the slave at the end of the Olivet Discourse is so important. The lesson to take is that if Jesus was to tell us when it would take place (if He could), we would be sorely tempted to act exactly as that slave acted, since we would know when to clean up prior to the Master's arrival.

In Matt 16 the Pharisees and Sadducees were testing him as to his identity by asking for a sign from heaven. Jesus replied, 2-3 "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' And in the morning, 'it will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times." And then what did he say? 4.An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.

Just what did Jesus tell them? He gave them a sign. It was a literal sign. There was nothing spiritual/allegorical in the sign. Jonah spent three days and three nights in the somach of a fish. In the same way, the Son of Man would spend three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth. It was EXACT. It was DIRECT. A simile. In like manner. The only thing needed to understand what Jesus said, is to understand just what part of Jonah's story Jesus was alluding to. Once that is figured out, if it is after Jesus death that it is recognized for what it is, it is a face palm event, how could we miss something so exact and direct? As a sign, it is given as notice. One observes the sign and then makes the connection.

Is it any different for the Pharisees and Saducees to seek a sign to verify that Jesus was the promised Messiah, than it is for modern day Christians to look for signs in the world that his return is imminent?

No. Jesus gave them a sign to verify that Jesus said He is who He said He was. He gave them the sign of Jonah. He also gave us the Olivet discourse. I know people like to reinterpret parts of it, such as the part that basically says that Jesus second coming is immediately after the time of Jacob's trouble, which has not happened yet. And this event is a part of the events Jesus said will occur before the end of that generation. Jesus second coming would occur prior to the generation passing away. Since we know Jesus hasn't returned yet "this generation" must mean something different then preterists say. That is the only rational conclusion.

Jesus does not say that we are to be watching for signs of what season it is in that regard. He says be ready. He simply says watch and pray. He says keep your lamps filled with oil, no matter how long the delay.

He gave us the parable of the fig tree. It isn't that we are necessarily solely just watching for signs, but that we recognize the signs to the upcoming season. Why? It is going to come fast, and furious once the signs start showing up. For instance, if what we are seeing now are signs of what premillennialists say is coming, I would say the world is over in one or two decades, if not sooner. That is speculation, but I believe with the things that are going on right now, it bears reconsideration.

God is no more dependent on world events or advances in technology than he is dependent on the weather to walk on the water, or dependent on anything in order to make the sun stand still or the shadow go backwards. He says he will return when you least expect it.

If God gives a prophecy, is God not dependent on that prophecy being fulfilled... ever? If it were as simple as you say, then all these false prophets declaring the word of God could be considered true prophets since prophecies don't always come to pass, so, as a technicality, they wouldn't be speaking presumptuously in the name of the Lord, right? But, God is clear. Prophecy is His Word, and as His Word, it will be fulfilled. It will not fall to the floor. Every jot and tiddle will be fulfilled. You may miss all the nuances, but they are fulfilled.

Is this shown in the Bible to be a prerequisite for the return of Christ? Or that either thing will happen?

Church Fathers seem to believe that the temple is a prerequisite for the return of Christ, for it is their that the Antichrist is revealed/unveiled. And this was written AFTER 70 AD. When they write about the temple, they make it the focal point of the abomination of desolation. In all the cases I looked at, it was the Antichrist blaspheming God in His temple, and declaring himself to be the true God, bringing an end to all religions other then the worship of himself [the Antichrist]. The closest Satan will get to fulfilling his desires.

 

[TMSO]

It's like a big jig-saw puzzle.

That it is. But if it truly is, then pieces start to fall into place, and the picture becomes clearer.

 

[Mr GLee]

Not really....but the Jews will treat it as it is.

The anti-christ is going to stand up in each christian and declare himself to be god?

The antichrists, another teaching authroity other than sola scriptura)

False apostle sent with false prophecy. .Satan the legion . The one spirit of the antichrists'( false teacher) working in many deceived.. . antichrists'

Legion has the potential to work in any man to deceive mankind that God s a Jewish man as King of kings. .

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.( No gospel)

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man whom he forbid from doing the will of the father

Why do you think the the spirit of the antichrists' (plural) choose Peter and not the the Son of Man, Jesus ?

 

[Red Baker]

or colonizing Mars?

I'm reminded of that which Moses wrote:

Genesis 11:6​

“And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.”

God only created this earth to be inhabited and has given it to the children of men.

Isaiah 45:18​

“For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”

Psalms 115:16​

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
The other (Mars, moon, etc.) are there for his own purpose, but not to be inhabited, and they never will be.

Most people don't know just how much work the Jews have put into rebuilding the temple.

Who cares? God certainly does not. God has been working building the true temple of God for two thousand years now and counting.

Acts 15:14-18​

“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

The tabernacle of David, (or the very elect) fell in Adam, and are now being rebuilt in Jesus Christ, for an eternal temple/house for God, not built by hands, but by the Spirit of God, where He shall dwell in, world with out end!

Revelation 21:3​

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

Stephen said these words:

Acts 7:48​

“Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,”

All who think that God desires a temple to be built in the middle east in Jerusalem will be sadly disappointed.

 

[CrowCross]

That it is. But if it truly is, then pieces start to fall into place, and the picture becomes clearer.

That is true....

Right now Trump is the only guy running around saying I and only I can bring peace. He's even tied into the 'deal of the century' and Abrahamic Accord" that his son-in-law was involved in. Trump made Jerusalem the capitol. Now, I'm not saying he is or he isn't....If Trump is, the piece will fit. If he isn't, try another piece.

 

[CrowCross]

Our technology has gotten to the point that we are on the cusp of doing things, planned out and getting ready to go, that the Bible says we are not going to do.

All out nuclear war is an example. A war that destroys the earth.
We can know that because the bible doesn't say it all ends that way.

On the other hand...a city or two or three????

 

[CrowCross]

All who think that God desires a temple to be built in the middle east in Jerusalem will be sadly disappointed.

Who says God desires the temple to be rebuilt? Certainly God won't restore the temple for a sacrifice He accepts as He already came as the savior Jesus Christ...and it is finished.

BUT, end time prophecy speaks of a temple in the last days. So, it will be.

 

[Arial]

I'm reminded of that which Moses wrote:

Genesis 11:6​

“And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.”

God only created this earth to be inhabited and has given it to the children of men.

Isaiah 45:18​

“For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”

Psalms 115:16​

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
The other (Mars, moon, etc.) are there for his own purpose, but not to be inhabited, and they never will be.

I am beginning to realize how many Christians either forget or never realize the above. In the process the whole world, God's creation that he created as our home, prepared it for us before he created man, begins to be viewed as evil and we long for another world. What is often not recognized in that process, is what Jesus came to do. He came to conquer and destroy evil from out of his creation. It came in through the man he created and all his progeny followed in the footsteps of that father. And through the redemption of mankind and the judgement on those not his people, he has done this. On the cross. Right now but not yet. But the promise is made and its fulfillment is certain.

And I believe, as far as my mind is able to reach, which isn't all that far all things considered, the conquering of evil and the evil one could only be done in the way it was done----with the fall of man and his redemption in Christ. And that really is the message and content of the final book of the Scriptures. We are given a view of the whole war and the various battles, that began when God declared that the seed of the woman would crush the serpents head. Some of what we see applied to what the seven churches who received the letter were experiencing and would experience, some of it seen from the heavenly perspective had happened already, some would happen and be happening throughout the time period between the resurrection and Christ's second coming, (the last days), some has yet to happen, the most dramatic being Christ's return in judgement with the resurrected and glorified (if they are alive when he returns)saints, and redemption is consummated.

I do not find that the intention of Revelation was a giant scrambled puzzle that Christians of all ages are meant to put together in order to decipher how close we are to some imagined seven year tribulation period, and the partial return of Christ to rapture out his people. If it were, that is all they would need to know. The rest that dispensationalism attributes to that seven years would have no application to anyone, not even those who received the letter. And no matter how much they claim they are deciphering the symbols (and using the world to do it, not the Bible) in order to discern how near Christ's return is, that cannot be the case, imo. According to that interpretation, they won't be here. They are trying to ascertain when they will escape tribulation and trouble.

I believe Revelation was given to its recipients in a letter to strengthen and encourage them to stand their ground. They were in great tribulation at the time in some cases, and about to be, and they needed to get rid of false pagan teaching and unredeemed sinners who plagued them in their midst. And it serves the same purpose for every generation that follows. What we are waiting for when we wait for the return of Christ is something we cannot see and no signs in the world will show us, is for the last sheep to be gathered into the fold.

 

[Arial]

t doesn't? The four horsemen? I mean, one of them is named War.

That doesn't tell me much. In fact it tells me nothing except that you jumped from a horse named War to the devistation of the world. How about you exegete your claim using the whole counsel of God.

That depends on the interpretation of prophecy, which, in this case, is your belief forced on it.

Statements like that leave no room for any kind of discussion. It presumes that you are in no way forcing your belief into your interpretations without supporting your interpretation and without even showing how my beliefs are forced into it.

Specifically the Early Church Fathers. They speak of a rebuilt temple. This was after 70 AD. It was also only within a century or two of 70 AD. Some also spoke of the one who restrains the unlawful one being Rome. As long as Rome exists, Jesus second coming isn't happening. Rome existly until 1453 AD, when the Turks took Constantinople, I mean Istanbul, not Constantinople. There was an Early Church Father who bemoaned the fact that Paul said we are to pray for those in authority. He bemoaned that they were told to pray for that very institution that held back the final days.

What the ECF said about it is irrelevant. What they said about it is not even the subject. The quote is completely irrelevant to the discussion so why is it there? What does the Bible say about a third temple being rebuilt? (The answer is nothing.)

I will get to the rest of your post later.

 

[CrowCross]

What the ECF said about it is irrelevant. What they said about it is not even the subject. The quote is completely irrelevant to the discussion so why is it there? What does the Bible say about a third temple being rebuilt? (The answer is nothing.)

It's true...the bible doesn't say the 3rd temple will be rebuilt.

The bible does mention a 3rd temple...and currently there isn't one. Simple deduction tells us if there is no temple now and there will be a temple in the future.....it has to be rebuilt.

 

[Arial]

The bible does mention a 3rd temple...and currently there isn't one.

Where does it mention that?

 

[CrowCross]

Where does it mention that?

If you don't know the verse I'm speaking of by now...you don't belong in the conversation.

 

[Arial]

Then why did Jesus give the parable of the fig tree? We are to be watching, but what we aren't to be doing is trying to figure out when Jesus will return the Kingdom to Israel. That is not for us to know.

If you are referring to Matt 24:32-35, that is not a parable. If we keep the Bible consistent in its teaching on Christ's second coming, 33. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near. at the very gates. 34. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place, must be things that happened in the lifetime of the disciples so the consummation that comes with Chris't return cannot be included in "all these things." It likely refers to those things found in v 8. The beginning of birth pains. All the elements of the prophecy occurred
in one form or another, including the fall of Jerusalem, during the lifetime of the disciples, except his return and the consummation. And they have continued and do continue even now and will do so until his return. Which suggests to me that there are two ages that Jesus and Paul speak of. This age. The age the disciples lived in and we live in. The beginning of birth pains that will lead to the age to come. The consummation and restoration of all things.

But the Lesson of the Fig Tree says absolutely nothing about Jesus returning the kingdom to Israel. That is the very thing the Jews were expecting of the Messiah and for which Jesus told them they could not read the signs of the times. Jesus did not come to restore the kingdom to national/ethnic Israel. He came to restore the whole creation and populate it with a new people----those who the Son died to redeem.

What became national Israel were his servants ( and unfaithful servants they were) leading to faithful Israel who conquered the enemy (sin and death)Jesus the Christ.

 

[Arial]

If you don't know the verse I'm speaking of by now...you don't belong in the conversation.

Just name the verse or are you afraid I will challenge it?

 

[Arial]

This is why the parable of the Master and the slave at the end of the Olivet Discourse is so important. The lesson to take is that if Jesus was to tell us when it would take place (if He could), we would be sorely tempted to act exactly as that slave acted, since we would know when to clean up prior to the Master's arrival.

Jesus is not speaking of the kingdom being restored to national Israel. He is referring to his second coming. 44.Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. And here you would have him saying watch for the signs of his coming, but you can't expect it by what you see.

And we do act like the wicked servant a great deal of the time. Has looking for signs and thinking you see them caused you to change any of that?

You need to show that any of what you have said in that post so far is speaking of Israel being restored.

Just what did Jesus tell them? He gave them a sign. It was a literal sign. There was nothing spiritual/allegorical in the sign. Jonah spent three days and three nights in the somach of a fish. In the same way, the Son of Man would spend three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

I don't know where spiritual and allegorical came into the discussion. It did sidestep the issue though. What did Jesus mean when he said they could not discern the signs of the times?

No. Jesus gave them a sign to verify that Jesus said He is who He said He was. He gave them the sign of Jonah.

He didn't give them a sign. He referred them back to something they were familiar with---Jonah. And not just the three days and nights, but that entire book. There is no way they could have connected that to his death and resurrection until he had died and been resurrected. Then, maybe, some of them might make that connection. They should have recognized him from the things he was doing and saying in their time.

I know people like to reinterpret parts of it, such as the part that basically says that Jesus second coming is immediately after the time of Jacob's trouble, which has not happened yet

Why change the subject?

And this event is a part of the events Jesus said will occur before the end of that generation. Jesus second coming would occur prior to the generation passing away. Since we know Jesus hasn't returned yet "this generation" must mean something different then preterists say. That is the only rational conclusion.

"This generation" clearly applies to those he was speaking to in that instance, but that does not mean that Jesus returned while they were alive. It is not a case of Preterists misinterpreting "generation" it is a case of misapplying "all these things." Which I have already discussed in another post.

It isn't that we are necessarily solely just watching for signs, but that we recognize the signs to the upcoming season.

Just us in the here and now, or for everyone who has been born and redeemed since Christ's ascension? Think about that for a minute or two.

It is going to come fast, and furious once the signs start showing up. For instance, if what we are seeing now are signs of what premillennialists say is coming, I would say the world is over in one or two decades, if not sooner. That is speculation, but I believe with the things that are going on right now, it bears reconsideration.

I guess 2000 years or so is pretty fast. Read some history. People have always been looking at the world in times of famine and persecution, upheavals of the earth and strange lights in the sky, martyrdom, years without rain and portions of the world termed a dust bowl, WWI WW2, and saying "This is it!" That should make you pause a bit and rethink a tad. And the world is never going to come to an end. If it did, God would have been defeated in his purpose of restoration.

 

[Red Baker]

Where does it mention that?

He probably may never get back to answer that question, since he truly has no answer. It is one of those many Jewish Fables, that men about two hundred years ago begin to give Israel a false hope to expect.