Why the Fossil Record Can't Be Due To Noah's Flood

[EarlyActs]

TB I have 3 major property or family projects to launch tomorrow, fyi.

 

[TB2]

I will make some preliminary remarks for those of which I have some knowledge

Ager, D. THE NATURE OF THE STRATIGRAPHICAL PROCESS. A peer scientist disputes Lyell's basis for uniformitarianism by evidence about rapid deposition and the Epeiric sea over north America

Ager advocates "neocatastrophism" which is essentially what modern geology endorses today and is still a rejection of YEC flood geology catastrophism and young earth

Baugh, C. PRE-FLOOD ARTIFACT DEVASTATES UNIFORMITARIANISM. Youtube. A hammer made of sophisticated metal from England in a 'strata' where it does not 'belong.'

Debunked. See the new thread on "Arguments Creationists Shoud Stop Using" and the link about Carl Baugh. Carl Baugh and Ron Wyatt are probably the two most 'notorious' when it comes to misinformation and crackpot claims that even AiG and ICM advise against trusting

"Biblical-Type Floods Are Real, and They're Absolutely Enormous" DiscoverMagazine.com. 2012-08-29

Link doesn't work

Boudreaux. NEW THEORY FOR THE PRE-FLOOD CANOPY re sugilite, a trace mineral found all over the earth's surface. Youtube.

Vapor Canopy theory has been rejected by most YECs today. Physics of it don't work. Also puts stars, moon, sun in the Earth's atmosphere based on Genesis 1

Bretz, J H. 1920s. Geologic catastrophism in connection with Lake Missoula.

Recognized by modern geology

Carbera, Dr. A Peruvian surgeon who located a human skull in tertiary material with dinosaurs.

Leading YEC organizations say no definitive proof of dino-human coexistence from these types of things. See new thread.

Coconino. The layer of sandstone at Grand Canyon that is from northeast north America.

One of my former (YEC) profs worked on. Other YECs misrepresented his work said it proved Noah's Flood when he said it isn't definitive. The cross bedding angles >30 degrees are too steep to form underwater and are consistent with eolian (sand dune) interpretation

DARWIN'S DILEMMA. Illustra Media. Even with a major flaw in the system, Darwin proceeded—or could not stop Huxley from pushing it out to the public now that the theory had “geological” support from Lyell and Hutton.

Misrepresents numerous points about Cambrian "explosion." Misunderstands crown vs stem taxa. Unaware of changing significance of phyla taxic designation. Omits significant fossil finds.

Hovind, K. FLOOD OF NOAH. Youtube. Hundreds of flood legends around the world. Hovind tends to wander off topic.



Hovind, K. THOUSANDS OF DRAGON LEGENDS AROUND THE WORLD. Youtube. Hovind tends to wander off topic.

Disreputable, untrustworthy information

Oard, M. THE LAKE MISSOULA FLOOD. Nwcreation.net Seattle creation conference 2015. This event echos the Genesis flood and demonstrates what happens when a half-continent floods.

Not half continent; caused by flooding from lake; recognized by modern geology

Opisthotonic. The feature of many fossils which appear to have been pressed, flattened, or smashed by abrupt overwhelming force against a rock surface.

There is nothing abnormal about this, nor does it occur in all cases. And there are plenty of cases like this that we see in sediments recognized by most YECs as Post-Flood like Green River Formation with millions of flattened fossil fish and fish appearing to be "eating" other fish and contorted fossils---all of these were deposited in an ancient lake (recognized by most YECs)

Siccar Point, Scotland. This site is contested as a clinching site by both uniformitarians and Biblical creation/deluge believers

Siccar Point required horizontal deposition then hardening (lithification) of the layers, then uplift at an angle to form an angular unconformity, then weathering and erosion to flatten the top followed by horizontal deposition of new layers. The entire sequence requires time (just to lithify the sediments)

Snelling, A. WORLDWIDE FLOOD; GEOLOGIC EVIDENCE. Youtube. Demonstrates some calculations of how hundreds of feet of sediment could have been transferred 2000 miles.

2,000 mile transport does not conflict with modern geology

Uniformitarianism. The view that there has been no creation of or interaction by a deity (god) with our universe. It is entirely a matter of ordinary scientific laws and evevents.

That is not the definition of uniformitarianism. What you're describing is all of science. But science is not anti God just limited to natural causation

-Pre-Flood artifacts and human-dino evidence combination of hoaxes or misinformation. To date there have been no bona fide empirically verified examples

-Flood stories in different cultures are not proof of Noah's Flood. Closest parallels to Genesis Flood are Babylonian and Mesopotamian flood accounts

 

[EarlyActs]

TB I have 3 major property or family projects to launch tomorrow, fyi.

Don't know what you mean by mistaken by 50%. Modern geology is a highly refined, highly sophisticated science. Field observations are correlated with thousands of experiments in labs similar to forensic science. There is no 'arrogance' in conclusions. And all conclusions are tentative and can be modified with additional data. Like any scientific field, conclusions are not concrete set in stone, nor are they all-or-none conclusions. Any conclusion is in degrees of certainty from extremely certain, very, somewhat certain, moderate, tentative to less certain, uncertain and speculative. Conclusions run the gamut range of degrees of certainty.

Don't know what you mean by mistaken by 50%. Modern geology is a highly refined, highly sophisticated science. Field observations are correlated with thousands of experiments in labs similar to forensic science. There is no 'arrogance' in conclusions. And all conclusions are tentative and can be modified with additional data. Like any scientific field, conclusions are not concrete set in stone, nor are they all-or-none conclusions. Any conclusion is in degrees of certainty from extremely certain, very, somewhat certain, moderate, tentative to less certain, uncertain and speculative. Conclusions run the gamut range of degrees of certainty.

To sound as certain when giving a range of Ms of years for an answer as when another is 10s is arrogant.

Q: when a local city nature notice about the mountains in view on a local Alaska nature walk has 90% of the catastrophic features that I routinely refer to , and in a recent time frame, and we are X000 miles from the near East, why is it ridiculous to refer to a recent global catastrophe ?

 

[EarlyActs]

I will make some preliminary remarks for those of which I have some knowledge



Ager advocates "neocatastrophism" which is essentially what modern geology endorses today and is still a rejection of YEC flood geology catastrophism and young earth

Debunked. See the new thread on "Arguments Creationists Shoud Stop Using" and the link about Carl Baugh. Carl Baugh and Ron Wyatt are probably the two most 'notorious' when it comes to misinformation and crackpot claims that even AiG and ICM advise against trusting

Link doesn't work

Vapor Canopy theory has been rejected by most YECs today. Physics of it don't work. Also puts stars, moon, sun in the Earth's atmosphere based on Genesis 1

Recognized by modern geology

Leading YEC organizations say no definitive proof of dino-human coexistence from these types of things. See new thread.

One of my former (YEC) profs worked on. Other YECs misrepresented his work said it proved Noah's Flood when he said it isn't definitive. The cross bedding angles >30 degrees are too steep to form underwater and are consistent with eolian (sand dune) interpretation

Misrepresents numerous points about Cambrian "explosion." Misunderstands crown vs stem taxa. Unaware of changing significance of phyla taxic designation. Omits significant fossil finds.

Disreputable, untrustworthy information

Not half continent; caused by flooding from lake; recognized by modern geology

There is nothing abnormal about this, nor does it occur in all cases. And there are plenty of cases like this that we see in sediments recognized by most YECs as Post-Flood like Green River Formation with millions of flattened fossil fish and fish appearing to be "eating" other fish and contorted fossils---all of these were deposited in an ancient lake (recognized by most YECs)

Siccar Point required horizontal deposition then hardening (lithification) of the layers, then uplift at an angle to form an angular unconformity, then weathering and erosion to flatten the top followed by horizontal deposition of new layers. The entire sequence requires time (just to lithify the sediments)

2,000 mile transport does not conflict with modern geology

That is not the definition of uniformitarianism. What you're describing is all of science. But science is not anti God just limited to natural causation

-Pre-Flood artifacts and human-dino evidence combination of hoaxes or misinformation. To date there have been no bona fide empirically verified examples

-Flood stories in different cultures are not proof of Noah's Flood. Closest parallels to Genesis Flood are Babylonian and Mesopotamian flood accounts

On the last, you are wrong according to UW Montgomery in his 2015 Harvard lecture. His chart has 10-15 features in 10-15 locations. And he says that’s that’s the short list, and that we know people all around the world have writing for a few thousand years, making it recent. And why don’t you recognize the Deucalion like 2Peter 2-3 does?

I read the reply on uniformitarianism; it is gibberish. Please edit.

What common hydrological features do ‘ the bursting fountains of the great deep’ and the museum sign ‘mega-flora was suddenly encased in mile-deep ice’ have? 5th request.

The mistake of Lyell was that rates had to be low, whether sedimentation or lithification. Because of closed natural processes. Nonsense. There are locations near me with snapped edges and we have storms and icing. Those faces are not Bs of years old. A few thousand like the city nature walk signage says.

 

[EarlyActs]

I will make some preliminary remarks for those of which I have some knowledge



Ager advocates "neocatastrophism" which is essentially what modern geology endorses today and is still a rejection of YEC flood geology catastrophism and young earth

Debunked. See the new thread on "Arguments Creationists Shoud Stop Using" and the link about Carl Baugh. Carl Baugh and Ron Wyatt are probably the two most 'notorious' when it comes to misinformation and crackpot claims that even AiG and ICM advise against trusting

Link doesn't work

Vapor Canopy theory has been rejected by most YECs today. Physics of it don't work. Also puts stars, moon, sun in the Earth's atmosphere based on Genesis 1

Recognized by modern geology

Leading YEC organizations say no definitive proof of dino-human coexistence from these types of things. See new thread.

One of my former (YEC) profs worked on. Other YECs misrepresented his work said it proved Noah's Flood when he said it isn't definitive. The cross bedding angles >30 degrees are too steep to form underwater and are consistent with eolian (sand dune) interpretation

Misrepresents numerous points about Cambrian "explosion." Misunderstands crown vs stem taxa. Unaware of changing significance of phyla taxic designation. Omits significant fossil finds.

Disreputable, untrustworthy information

Not half continent; caused by flooding from lake; recognized by modern geology

There is nothing abnormal about this, nor does it occur in all cases. And there are plenty of cases like this that we see in sediments recognized by most YECs as Post-Flood like Green River Formation with millions of flattened fossil fish and fish appearing to be "eating" other fish and contorted fossils---all of these were deposited in an ancient lake (recognized by most YECs)

Siccar Point required horizontal deposition then hardening (lithification) of the layers, then uplift at an angle to form an angular unconformity, then weathering and erosion to flatten the top followed by horizontal deposition of new layers. The entire sequence requires time (just to lithify the sediments)

2,000 mile transport does not conflict with modern geology

That is not the definition of uniformitarianism. What you're describing is all of science. But science is not anti God just limited to natural causation

-Pre-Flood artifacts and human-dino evidence combination of hoaxes or misinformation. To date there have been no bona fide empirically verified examples

-Flood stories in different cultures are not proof of Noah's Flood. Closest parallels to Genesis Flood are Babylonian and Mesopotamian flood accounts

Bretz was not about one lake. The entire ice field of the Cordilleron was breaking—Elwha and Morse, the Columbia smashing through the Cascades, the Minnesota edge which the Vikings used as late as 1000, and Niagara.

Are you seeing the obvious instated component from the AK museum line? The Mile-deep ice could not stay as such, just through natural modulation. Not that it gets tropical again, as it was, but ice as far south as Olympia could not stay. By 1760 that kind was as far retreated as Glacier Bay’s mouth. GB ice is now about 40 north of that mouth. It’s been something like 0.4 miles per year since the cataclysm, as far as the south to north movement goes. You might call it stubborn. But the rates at the first were much higher. The energy of the event is \____.

If you’ve been in the Palouse and you have seen a sandy stream make the same undulations as miniatures, you can visualize the amount of water and slurry in motion. It broke through the Cascade barrier! Why do you splinter and splinter like Ager? You repeatedly minimize connection and isolate, like ‘God forbid 2Peter3 actually be accurate. ‘. Some events are 100 year and some are 10000 year, so big that everything is affected. Everything—even indigenous narratives. Like the back cover of the WA geology hiking book says.

 

[TB2]

Bretz was not about one lake. The entire ice field of the Cordilleron was breaking—Elwha and Morse, the Columbia smashing through the Cascades, the Minnesota edge which the Vikings used as late as 1000, and Niagara.

Are you seeing the obvious instated component from the AK museum line? The Mile-deep ice could not stay as such, just through natural modulation. Not that it gets tropical again, as it was, but ice as far south as Olympia could not stay. By 1760 that kind was as far retreated as Glacier Bay’s mouth. GB ice is now about 40 north of that mouth. It’s been something like 0.4 miles per year since the cataclysm, as far as the south to north movement goes. You might call it stubborn. But the rates at the first were much higher. The energy of the event is \____.

If you’ve been in the Palouse and you have seen a sandy stream make the same undulations as miniatures, you can visualize the amount of water and slurry in motion. It broke through the Cascade barrier! Why do you splinter and splinter like Ager? You repeatedly minimize connection and isolate, like ‘God forbid 2Peter3 actually be accurate. ‘. Some events are 100 year and some are 10000 year, so big that everything is affected. Everything—even indigenous narratives. Like the back cover of the WA geology hiking book says.

It was one lake: ancient Ice Age Lake Missoula. It also was not a single flooding event. The ice dam broke several times, so there were several flooding events (and it was a failed ice dam at a single point near the present day border of Montana and Idaho, not the entire Cordilleran Ice Sheet). The flooding also did not "break through the Cascade barrier" but terminally followed the Columbia River Valley Gorge to the Pacific.

 

[TB2]

To sound as certain when giving a range of Ms of years for an answer as when another is 10s is arrogant.

Q: when a local city nature notice about the mountains in view on a local Alaska nature walk has 90% of the catastrophic features that I routinely refer to , and in a recent time frame, and we are X000 miles from the near East, why is it ridiculous to refer to a recent global catastrophe ?

Geochronology is a very refined, sophisticated science today with checks and cross checks and triple checks to ensure accuracy. INDEPENDENT lines of evidence are used to confirm dates. When INDEPENDENT lines of evidence yield the same geochronologic dates, that is strong empirically confirming evidence.

 

[TB2]

God forbid 2Peter3 actually be accurate.

You are making the mistake of conflating Scripture with modern YEC flood geology theories. Denying YEC flood geology is NOT a denial of Scripture, but a denial of man-made theories about the flood.

 

[TB2]

I will try to examine the rest of your post when I have more time because there is much to consider, but with regard to this, I wanted to address it right now. I do not need to provide support that I believe what the Bible says, and that it is absolute truth, at least not for me. I have spent a lot of time in scripture, and I am thoroughly convinced and unmovable, but I can see how someone else might want support. I just don't see what kind of support will make them believe. If they don't believe the Bible, what can I possibly say to make them believe?

Believe it or not, my view is very similar to yours, and I would even take it a step further. I think it is a mistake to bring modern science into the Bible at all. The Bible has to be understood in the proper historical context in which it was written, not through the lens of modern science. Many misinterpretations of the Bible have happened that way.

 

[TB2]

The mistake of Lyell was that rates had to be low, whether sedimentation or lithification. Because of closed natural processes. Nonsense. There are locations near me with snapped edges and we have storms and icing. Those faces are not Bs of years old. A few thousand like the city nature walk signage says.

Yep, you just keep attacking that uniformitarianism strawman that modern geology already killed and buried all the way back in 1965

 

[David1701]

The Hebrew is Ashur. The same word for the ancient capital city of Ashur (from which Assyria gets it name) is the same Hebrew word translated Assyria.

Yes, I know.

Either way---Ashur or Assyria--the Pre-Flood Tigris River is identified in relation to a Post-Flood city or country!

I've mentioned this a few times before, but you have always ignored it, still, I'll try again: have you considered that there could have been an Assyria, or Asshur, before the Flood and that the post-Flood city and/or country was named after it?

 

[TB2]

What common hydrological features do ‘ the bursting fountains of the great deep’ and the museum sign ‘mega-flora was suddenly encased in mile-deep ice’ have? 5th request

And I will reply a fourth time (on this thread and the Noah's Ark one) that "great fountains of the deep" has nothing to do with hydrology or plate tectonics but the deep was understood in ancient Bible times to be the primeval waters of chaos from which creation was ordered and differentiated.

I will further add (as I already have said before here and on the Noah's Ark thread) that the fossil record evidence contradicts theories of hydrological sorting and ecological zonation. For example, slow growing stromatolites and reefs globally distributed throughout the fossil record with the most massive enormous reefs in the middle to upper part of the fossil record and the smallest reefs at the bottom contradict and are the reverse of what hydrological sorting and ecological zonation predicts.

 

[TB2]

Yes, I know.


I've mentioned this a few times before, but you have always ignored it, still, I'll try again: have you considered that there could have been an Assyria, or Asshur, before the Flood and that the post-Flood city and/or country was named after it?

Not biblically supported when we look at the Genesis 5 genealogies and Post-Flood Genesis 10 Table of Nations. And it would further require that Gen 2.14 be the sole exception that we understand as a reference to a Pre-Flood city/country by the same name, which amounts to special pleading. And that sole exception we are only making in order to try to harmonize modern YEC flood geology assumptions.

 

[David1701]

Not biblically supported when we look at the Genesis 5 genealogies and Post-Flood Genesis 10 Table of Nations. And it would further require that Gen 2.14 be the sole exception that we understand as a reference to a Pre-Flood city/country by the same name, which amounts to special pleading.

You claim that it's the "sole exception", but I claim that the rivers Tigris and Euphrates also belong to this category, especially since the modern ones are not as described in Gen. 2.

 

[TB2]

You claim that it's the "sole exception", but I claim that the rivers Tigris and Euphrates also belong to this category, especially since the modern ones are not as described in Gen. 2.

But do you see how we are only trying to reinterpret and not follow the plain, literal meaning of Scripture simply in order to make the Bible try to fit with man-made YEC theories and assumptions about the flood and flood geology. Shouldn't we interpret Scripture in terms of Scripture?

 

[David1701]

But do you see how we are only trying to reinterpret and not follow the plain, literal meaning of Scripture simply in order to make the Bible try to fit with man-made YEC theories and assumptions about the flood and flood geology. Shouldn't we interpret Scripture in terms of Scripture?

LOL!

No, I don't share your presuppositions, so I don't "see" through your glasses.

The plain, literal meaning is that there was a large river that branched into four. This situation no longer exists, which may be a mystery to you, but not to those who believe that a global flood completely changed the Earth's geography, as it would.

 

[TB2]

LOL!

No, I don't share your presuppositions, so I don't "see" through your glasses.

The plain, literal meaning is that there was a large river that branched into four. This situation no longer exists, which may be a mystery to you, but not to those who believe that a global flood completely changed the Earth's geography, as it would.

The presuppositions are not mine. Genesis 2.14 identifies the Pre-Flood Tigris River in relation to the Post-Flood ancient city/country of Ashur/Assyria. That is the straightforward, literal understanding of Scripture. A plain, literal understanding of Scripture is that the Pre-Flood Tigris River was still identifiable after the Flood in relation to Post-Flood city/country.

 

[David1701]

The presuppositions are not mine. Genesis 2.14 identifies the Pre-Flood Tigris River in relation to the Post-Flood ancient city/country of Ashur/Assyria. That is the straightforward, literal understanding of Scripture. A plain, literal understanding of Scripture is that the Pre-Flood Tigris River was still identifiable after the Flood in relation to Post-Flood city/country.

There would be no river or country identifiable after the global flood! This is cloud cuckoo land.

 

[EarlyActs]

It was one lake: ancient Ice Age Lake Missoula. It also was not a single flooding event. The ice dam broke several times, so there were several flooding events (and it was a failed ice dam at a single point near the present day border of Montana and Idaho, not the entire Cordilleran Ice Sheet). The flooding also did not "break through the Cascade barrier" but terminally followed the Columbia River Valley Gorge to the Pacific.

But all the catastrophists I know of speak of 4-500 years of activity (the \ in the \____ graph). Which would include puncturing the Cascades. This is not complicated. The wholeness is being constantly splintered by 'established' dates with 50% error allowances. When people throw around 50% error margins, why is it unthinkable that we are talking about the same thing, and that, being about as far as you can get from the ANE, the same event, and even much of the same narrative--considering the Sequalish narrative about creation, evil, restriction against evil experimentation, fixing of species--is presented? Why do Psalms and Quileyute indians speak of the Creator defeating a monster, last associated with the sea? Why do the Payute have evidence of actually dealing with hostile giants near Lovelock NV? Keep in mind the account was heard by a tribe princess from the grandfather actually in the raid, and was apologetic, not victory-smitten, about it?

Have you read Mayor's geo-mythology?

Have a great day,

Marcus

 

[EarlyActs]

Remember the quake and tsunami in Indonesia in 2000? When I read you, it's like someone saying they were two separate events. Sure, they are different kinds, but I mean as though unrelated, with no possibility of connection into a climactic whole, whether it sounds like 2 Peter 3 was true or not.