Who really limits the Atonement?

[Carbon]

Spurgeon (a calvinist) said,

As to whether it is the Calvinist or the Arminian who limit the atonement, are to the point. "We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a sacrifice for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, 'No, certainly not.' We ask them the next question - Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer 'No.' They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, 'No. Christ has died that any man may be saved if' - and then follow certain conditions of salvation.
Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.' We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.

 

[Carbon]

Spurgeon (a calvinist) said,

As to whether it is the Calvinist or the Arminian who limit the atonement, are to the point. "We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a sacrifice for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, 'No, certainly not.' We ask them the next question - Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer 'No.' They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, 'No. Christ has died that any man may be saved if' - and then follow certain conditions of salvation.
Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.' We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.

I believe all calvinists agree that Christ's obedience and suffering were of infinite value, and if God had so willed that Christ's satisfaction would have saved everyone ever born, then it would have been so. It would have required no more obedience, nor any greater suffering for Christ to have secured the salvation for every man, woman and child ever born than it did for him to secure the salvation for only the elect. But as scripture teaches, he came into the world to represent and save only those given him by the Father. Thus, Christ's saving work was limited in that it was designed to save some and not others, but it was not limited in value for it was of infinite worth and would have secured salvation for everyone if this had been God's intention.

 

[Carbon]

Thus, Christ's saving work was limited in that it was designed to save some and not others, but it was not limited in value for it was of infinite worth and would have secured salvation for everyone if this had been God's intention.

Arminians place a limitation on Christ's work. They teach that christ's saving work was designed to "make possible" the salvation of all men on the condition that they believe, but that Christ's death in itself did not actually secure or guarantee the salvation of anyone.

 

[Carbon]

But I believe it is obvious, a limited atonement must be applied since all men will not be saved.

It's either the atonement was limited in that it was designed to secure the salvation for certain sinners but not for others, or it was linmited in that it was not intended to secure the salvation for any, but was designed to only make it possible for God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe.

I agree with, "the atonement was limited in that it was designed to secure the salvation for certain sinners but not for others."


Thoughts? Agree, disagree?

 

[Carbon]

I believe scripture describes the end intended and accomplished by Christ's work as the full salvation of His people.

He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21.

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, Gal 1:3-4.

14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:14.

Thos are some clear and explicit scriptures to argue against.

 

[Carbon]

Consider that Jesus was sent into the world by the Father to save the people that the Father gave him, by fulfilling what the Father sent him to accomplish, which was agreed upon in the Covenant of Redemption.
Jesus, the good Shepherd, lays down his life for these, "his sheep," and all those who are his sheep are made to hear his voice and they follow him. Notice the father has given the sheep to him.

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ... 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." John 10:11, 14-18

 

[makesends]

But I believe it is obvious, a limited atonement must be applied since all men will not be saved.

It's either the atonement was limited in that it was designed to secure the salvation for certain sinners but not for others, or it was linmited in that it was not intended to secure the salvation for any, but was designed to only make it possible for God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe.

I agree with, "the atonement was limited in that it was designed to secure the salvation for certain sinners but not for others."


Thoughts? Agree, disagree?

To play Devil's Advocate, no, nevermind. I lost the argument already...

 

[makesends]

Those insisting on self-determinism are, as usual, imprecise in their thinking. They always have a vague notion, be it "Love", or even as precise as "Prevenient Grace". It is still vague, not defined.

But take Prevenient Grace for an example: They want to say that God works in the so-far unregenerated, so as to enable him to produce faith unto salvation. The don't have anything to say just how God does it. But the Calvinist says, that God does regenerate first, and that the regeneration is accomplished by the Spirit of God, and that the Spirit of God does this work in them by his indwelling them, making them IN CHRIST.

Here you have the self-determinist with an umbrella of vague atonement for nobody in particular, with all sins sorta paid for though not exactly. And that is the best they can do. If you hold them down squirming onto the grill of reason, they will invent this notion or that, a favorite among them being that Christ did indeed pay for all sins, but the unforgiveable sin of rejection of the Gospel. There is no Scripture to back it up—it is only invention.

It is astounding to me, the things that they must to do uphold their right to self-determinism.