Who are they, and where have they come from?

[XrzrX]

But it wasn't just the physical destruction of the temple or the loss of life that took place in 70 a.d.. What is the most terrible thing you can imagine? The absolute worst. Well, I certainly can't speak for you, but for me it would be God saying to me, "I am done with you. " and walk away from me.

Well that is what the judgement of 70 a.d. was to the Jews who had been his covenant people since he brought them out of Egypt. He was their God, and now he wasn't. They had to worship him at the temple in Jerusalem. That is where he met with them, accepted their sacrifices and forgave their sins, and answered their prayers, and spoke to them through prophets and priests. No more prophets, No more priests, no more relationship with him, no more protection or provision of comfort. No more temple. Jerusalem trampled on.

That had never happened before and it will never happen again. Only those who reject Jesus, as the Jews did, will face his wrath. And that wrath does not last for seven years, that is not what the great tribulation is. That is not the judgement. His wrath will do its work in an instant by the breath of his mouth.

Bingo!

 

[XrzrX]

Yes, i would consider it as future prophecy.

Some say it was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD....which we know the Jews have seen more severe tribulation prior to the event and after the event...the holocost is an example.

Everything Arial said, and I would just posit some scripture that may also put that in context. The verse I mentioned cites the "last days" which would strongly allude to the end of the Covenantal period, then the Song of Moses immediately after the verse., where in Deut 32:43 it introduced "the 'nations' joining the song".. and states that's when God's 'vengeance' comes into play. "[He] will render vengeance to His adversaries." In Luke Jesus verbatim states in relation to the destruction of Jerusalem, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Luke 21:22.. and then in Rev, during the 7 plagues, saints are singing the Song of Moses Rev 15:3. So, this may be something to consider.

 

[Marty]

But it wasn't just the physical destruction of the temple or the loss of life that took place in 70 a.d.. What is the most terrible thing you can imagine? The absolute worst. Well, I certainly can't speak for you, but for me it would be God saying to me, "I am done with you. " and walk away from me.

Well that is what the judgement of 70 a.d. was to the Jews who had been his covenant people since he brought them out of Egypt. He was their God, and now he wasn't. They had to worship him at the temple in Jerusalem. That is where he met with them, accepted their sacrifices and forgave their sins, and answered their prayers, and spoke to them through prophets and priests. No more prophets, No more priests, no more relationship with him, no more protection or provision of comfort. No more temple. Jerusalem trampled on.

That had never happened before and it will never happen again. Only those who reject Jesus, as the Jews did, will face his wrath. And that wrath does not last for seven years, that is not what the great tribulation is. That is not the judgement. His wrath will do its work in an instant by the breath of his mouth.

Yes amen that’s what the worst thing was


It’s just like hell isnt literal fire it’s seeing God and realizing that you chose not to dwell with Him forever it was your own choice

 

[Hazelelponi]

I guess hell is the next topic...

 

[Josheb]

I have seen other post that say....."It is completely unecessary to determine what the great tribulation is in order to know who they are."...which I disagree with.

You post as if you know but have not elaborated.

Once again we know the great tribulation hasn't happened yet...simply from what Jesus said. That is, it's a time like we have never see before or will see agaun. But, heck, some say knowing what it is, is unecessary to know what it is and when it is.

One more post avoiding the logical necessities of Revelation 7:14.


Rev. 7:14 explicitly states the people about whom it is referring come through the great tribulation. They are people who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. They are not Jews who don't believe in Jesus. They are not Gentiles who don't believe in Jesus and consider the gospel foolishness.

1 Peter 1:17-21
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Peter is writing about those chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood (1 Pet. 1:2).

After John saw the intercessor of Revelation 7 in his vision, he saw the archangel Michael and he heard Michael state,

Revelation 12:10-11
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

I have already provided a survey of the seven letters and how the three themes of repentance, perseverance, and overcoming pertain to all seven churches. Here in chapter 12, we find Michael prophetically announcing the brethren overcame, and they overcame because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of their witness because some of them faced death and professed their love of Christ was greater then their love of their own life. That is what the text explicitly states. Scripture tells us. We do not need any man-made eschatology to understand what is being said here (any more than we need some doctrine to tell is what Rev. 7:14 has stated). Reason tells us these brethren are on earth. Why? Because salvation and the kingdom did not come to heaven. Heaven has always been God's throne (see also Isa. 66:1 and Acts 7:49). They come from heaven. The larger text of Rev. 12 provides other information telling us these brethren who overcame did so on earth. Logical also asks, "What kind of overcoming could a person possibly perform if they are removed from all testing? If they do not face tribulation then what, exactly, would it be they are overcoming by risking their own lives?

Furthermore, the mention of the Lamb's blood is a reference to the Passover and Christ as the redeeming sacrifice of the saints, the bondservants, the brethren of Christ. The people asked about in Revelation 7:16 are Christians. Who are these people in the white robes and from whence have they come?

They have come through the great tribulation.

Their robes are white because they washed them in the Lamb's blood.


This is why historical, orthodox Christianity has always agreed and taught - no matter what other differences exist elsewhere - Christians go through the great tribulation. They are not removed from it. If they were/are removed from it then there is nothing to overcome, no need to profess one's faith while the world goes to hell in a band basket, no need for any rewards for overcoming.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Only Dispensational Premillennialism/modern futurism teaches this differently. Darby, Scofield, and the early DPers got it wrong. They deliberately eschewed what Christianity has always taught. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded a Bible college to teach DPism and the teaching became institutionalized. Now, 200 years after Darby, and 100 years after the founding of DTS, the rest of Christendom is left having to deal with the most division theology in the history of Christianity - a theology that is irreconcilable with what orthodox Christianity has taught since its inception.

And all I am asking right now is for you to speak to the fact Revelation 7:14 states what it states and what it states cannot be reconciled with the belief in a pre-tribulation rapture. Christians are stated to come through the great tribulation.



What does what the verse states mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation?



This is the op-relevant cul de sac in this thread right now. We've driven in but cannot exit because of the refusal to answer the question asked. The question has been asked multiple times and avoided just as many times as it's been asked. Would you, if you can,* please answer the question now? Thank you for doing so.









* And if the answer is not known then say, "I do not know."
.

 

[CrowCross]

But it wasn't just the physical destruction of the temple or the loss of life that took place in 70 a.d.. What is the most terrible thing you can imagine? The absolute worst. Well, I certainly can't speak for you, but for me it would be God saying to me, "I am done with you. " and walk away from me.

Now you're speculating. Sure, that would be a bad thing....But the tribulation period is for THE WHOLE WORLD. Why do people forget that?
The times of trouble are what the book of Revelation speaks about. For a glimpse of it go re-read Rev 8.

Well that is what the judgement of 70 a.d. was to the Jews who had been his covenant people since he brought them out of Egypt. He was their God, and now he wasn't. They had to worship him at the temple in Jerusalem. That is where he met with them, accepted their sacrifices and forgave their sins, and answered their prayers, and spoke to them through prophets and priests. No more prophets, No more priests, no more relationship with him, no more protection or provision of comfort. No more temple. Jerusalem trampled on.

But as I said...not the tribulation mentioned in Rev.

That had never happened before and it will never happen again. Only those who reject Jesus, as the Jews did, will face his wrath. And that wrath does not last for seven years, that is not what the great tribulation is. That is not the judgement. His wrath will do its work in an instant by the breath of his mouth.

The book of revelation in partial is about the tribulation of the Jews...time of Jacobs trouble which last 7 years. During that time period God uses 144,000 Jews to restore Israel.

The problem is when one relies on symbology and such there is room for a whole lot of error. I believe you have done that with your amillenist orthodox approach. I have given you several examples...would you like to discuss them again? Besides what's mentioned above with your non-tribulation we can start with the belief satan is currently locked up in your symbolic pit.

 

[CrowCross]

Everything Arial said, and I would just posit some scripture that may also put that in context. The verse I mentioned cites the "last days" which would strongly allude to the end of the Covenantal period, then the Song of Moses immediately after the verse., where in Deut 32:43 it introduced "the 'nations' joining the song".. and states that's when God's 'vengeance' comes into play. "[He] will render vengeance to His adversaries." In Luke Jesus verbatim states in relation to the destruction of Jerusalem, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Luke 21:22.. and then in Rev, during the 7 plagues, saints are singing the Song of Moses Rev 15:3. So, this may be something to consider.

The great tribulation in the book of Revelation hasn't happened yet. If so, then explain in history where Rev 8 has happened.
I have found NO orthodox amillennialist here explain it....but they deem it to be so. We can even back up to the 4 horsemen....or the two witnesses.

 

[CrowCross]

This is why historical, orthodox Christianity has always agreed and taught - no matter what other differences exist elsewhere - Christians go through the great tribulation. They are not removed from it.

They are wrong.

Do you believe we are in the great tribulation...or it has already happened?

 

[XrzrX]

The great tribulation in the book of Revelation hasn't happened yet. If so, then explain in history where Rev 8 has happened.
I have found NO orthodox amillennialist here explain it....but they deem it to be so. We can even back up to the 4 horsemen....or the two witnesses.

Well, I don't claim to have all the answers by far.. and don't hold the full preterist view, however.. the alignment of the verses I cited are pretty compelling. They certainly gave me pause. Peter verbatim states:
"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY MALE SLAVES AND FEMALE SLAVES,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR OUT MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
AND I WILL PUT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD COMES.
AND IT WILL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
I mean, he literally say "THIS IS.." Pentecost.
And he's citing Joel 2..
So, there's alot to chew on here. I don't rule out all futurism because prophesy is pretty complex in that there are 'dual, multiple and conditional' prophesies. And the monkeywrench is "Millenial" prophesy. So much of it clearly things that Do Not align with a post Cross reality for Believers, which begs the question... how much of it is what 'would have been' had Israel received their Messiah.
In my estimation, the proper posture to eschatology is a healthy dose of humility... not undue confidence and a dry erase board.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, I don't claim to have all the answers by far.. and don't hold the full preterist view, however.. the alignment of the verses I cited are pretty compelling. They certainly gave me pause. Peter verbatim states:
"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY MALE SLAVES AND FEMALE SLAVES,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR OUT MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
AND I WILL PUT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD COMES.
AND IT WILL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
I mean, he literally say "THIS IS.." Pentecost.
And he's citing Joel 2..
So, there's alot to chew on here. I don't rule out all futurism because prophesy is pretty complex in that there are 'dual, multiple and conditional' prophesies. And the monkeywrench is "Millenial" prophesy. So much of it clearly things that Do Not align with a post Cross reality for Believers, which begs the question... how much of it is what 'would have been' had Israel received their Messiah.
In my estimation, the proper posture to eschatology is a healthy dose of humility... not undue confidence and a dry erase board.

We can know from what you posted that the last days appears to be a period of time...a dispensation?
But, the verse also mentions the Day of the Lord....which I don't think is THE last days but rather a part of the last days. As you said prophecy is pretty complex.

 

[XrzrX]

We can know from what you posted that the last days appears to be a period of time...a dispensation?
But, the verse also mentions the Day of the Lord....which I don't think is THE last days but rather a part of the last days. As you said prophecy is pretty complex.

Right, but the day Peter is declaring is The Great and Terrible Day of The LORD.. which, to my knowledge is "The Day", as opposed to the many other "day of the LORD" mentions.

 

[Arial]

Now you're speculating. Sure, that would be a bad thing....But the tribulation period is for THE WHOLE WORLD. Why do people forget that?
The times of trouble are what the book of Revelation speaks about.

I don't think anyoneis. If you have paid attention to what is being said about my view and other in the thread, as to what the great tribulation is, you would see that we do think it is for the whole world. But you have slipped slightly sideways of what was being discussed. Which was that you claim 70a.d. could not be what Jesus is talking about because he said it would be worse than anything before or after. And so you say something worse must happen.

But as I said...not the tribulation mentioned in Rev.

There is something about Revelation I don't think you have noticed. That happens when one gets so focused on solving the "puzzle" of symbolic representation of visions. It has the same things happening from different viewpoints. It has clear images relating to some things that have already played out in our history such as Rev 10, 11, 12. Scenes are replayed using different images, indicating the perspective being shown. It is not a chronological depiction of seven years.

The book of revelation in partial is about the tribulation of the Jews...time of Jacobs trouble which last 7 years. During that time period God uses 144,000 Jews to restore Israel.

The book of Revelation is revealing Jesus. Try reading it according to its title. The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Exactly what scriptures do you use to come up with a literal 144,000 Jews walking around Israel restoring Israel. Seriously, I would like to examine everyone of them with you to see if it is really referring to 144,000 Jews doing as you say. The JW's made that same literalistic mistake, they just identified them as different people----something they have had to adjust over the years.

The problem is when one relies on symbology and such there is room for a whole lot of error. I believe you have done that with your amillenist orthodox approach.

When something is written primarily with the use of symbolic images, figures of speech, symbology is the very thing that must be employed in order to understand it. And with the "code", if you will, given within the same source from which they come. Especially when at the very beginning of the writing it becomes known as a series of visions and states that it will be signifying things. We have the entire OT, rife with these same symbols and figurative language, and that were well known, and well understood, by those who used them and heard them. Revelation is in large part, a spiritual book about spiritual things, things that played out in the temporal and historically, as we saw them. What we did not see, was the invisible power and actions and purpose behind those things. That is what Revelation is showing us. It is not tea leaves to read, or a crystal ball to consult. It is for comfort and steadfastness and a hope that is a certain.

I have given you several examples...would you like to discuss them again? Besides what's mentioned above with your non-tribulation we can start with the belief satan is currently locked up in your symbolic pit.

No. When we did it before I was supposed to listen to your side of the story, as though there was only one side, but mine was to be ignored. I do not need to repeat myself even if you have a compulsory need to repeat yourself.

 

[CrowCross]

Right, but the day Peter is declaring is The Great and Terrible Day of The LORD.. which, to my knowledge is "The Day", as opposed to the many other "day of the LORD" mentions.

I'm glad you can keep them all straight.

 

[CrowCross]

If you have paid attention to what is being said

Edit: violation of rules 2.1, 2.2,. If you cannot speak to me without violating rules, then don't speak to me at all}

There is something about Revelation I don't think you have noticed. That happens when one gets so focused on solving the "puzzle" of symbolic representation of visions. It has the same things happening from different viewpoints. It has clear images relating to some things that have already played out in our history such as Rev 10, 11, 12. Scenes are replayed using different images, indicating the perspective being shown. It is not a chronological depiction of seven years.

The only way you can be sure one of your events in Revelation is symbolic is when the bible tells us what the symbol means.....other wise...you speculate. Sometimes you may get it right, while other times you get it wrong. The orthodox amillennialist seem to thrive on speculation.

Do you actually think they'll put a "mark" on your right hand or forehead???? Of course not, a literal mark is crazyness....we all know it's purely symbolic.

Then again we do have the technology to pretty much do it right now.....Right now in 2025! Not on a world wide scale yet, but that's coming.

That is what Revelation is showing us. It is not tea leaves to read, or a crystal ball to consult. It is for comfort and steadfastness and a hope that is a certain.

Yes, this sounds comfortable....In reference to the symbolic Rev 13.... 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.....sound comforting. Right?

 

[XrzrX]

I'm glad you can keep them all straight.

Well, it would definitely be difficult.. had not Joel chosen to add "And Terrible". It's just not kickin' the goads.. it stands out precipitously.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, it would definitely be difficult.. had not Joel chosen to add "And Terrible". It's just not kickin' the goads.. it stands out precipitously.

From what I see the first part pertains to pentecost and the second part pertains to the tribulation. As we know the second part didn't happen at pentecost.

 

[XrzrX]

From what I see the first part pertains to pentecost and the second part pertains to the tribulation. As we know the second part didn't happen at pentecost.

Right, and I would agree obviously Pentecost was not the event where God poured His wrath out.. (quite the opposite) but, to say "THIS is.." would at least denote the series of events both happening, and I would argue 'about to..', rather than a 2 Millenia time span is what's in view. It just doesn't read naturally otherwise, so at some point you have got question this drastic futurist "only" paradigm, which I would argue, is as, if not more, problematic than a full preterist view.

 

[CrowCross]

Right, and I would agree obviously Pentecost was not the event where God poured His wrath out.. (quite the opposite) but, to say "THIS is.." would at least denote the series of events both happening, and I would argue 'about to..', rather than a 2 Millenia time span is what's in view. It just doesn't read naturally otherwise, so at some point you have got question this drastic futurist "only" paradigm, which I would argue, is as, if not more, problematic than a full preterist view.

Well, we know it's still future as it hasn't happened yet..along with what is mentioned in Rev 8.

I'm sticking with what they call futurist.

 

[XrzrX]

Well, we know it's still future as it hasn't happened yet..along with what is mentioned in Rev 8.

I'm sticking with what they call futurist.

But again, Jesus stated about the destruction of Jerusalem "For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are written may be fulfilled.".. how do you parse that?

 

[Arial]

The only way you can be sure one of your events in Revelation is symbolic is when the bible tells us what the symbol means.....other wise...you speculate. Sometimes you may get it right, while other times you get it wrong. The orthodox amillennialist seem to thrive on speculation.

Something is symbolic when symbols are used. In the interpretations given from Reformed amil theologians who do so, they obtain the meanings from within their use in the OT. And I don't just go around making up my own. I lean on the writers I trust to do that extensive work, and then I check to see that it isn't far fetched. They will usually give the places from which the symbolism is drawn. And no one gets everything right all the time. Revelation is not a map. What is your basis for saying that Orthodox amillennialist (whatever Orthodox means in that sentence) seem to thrive on speculation. Serious question that I would like an answer to.

Give me just two examples and the Amillennialist that presented it, and why you think it is speculation.

Do you actually think they'll put a "mark" on your right hand or forehead???? Of course not, a literal mark is crazyness....we all know it's purely symbolic.

Is that sarcasm? Would you consider a seal a mark? The believer is sealed in Christ. Is that a visible mark?

Compare these two passages:
Rev 13:16-17 It (the beast) causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast and the number of its name.

Deut 6:4-8 "Hear, O Israel: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might, And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to our children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between our eyes.

Symbolic or literal?

Yes, this sounds comfortable....In reference to the symbolic Rev 13.... 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.....sound comforting. Right?

Comfort isn't a matter of being comfortable. The comfort is that nothing not, even death, can take us out of God's hands. Romans 8. The devil, through world systems has always been making war on the saints. That is what is evident in the news of the day.

Now, could you please address the other points in my post. Post #112

It has the same things happening from different viewpoints. It has clear images relating to some things that have already played out in our history such as Rev 10, 11, 12. Scenes are replayed using different images, indicating the perspective being shown. It is not a chronological depiction of seven years.

Exactly what scriptures do you use to come up with a literal 144,000 Jews walking around Israel restoring Israel. Seriously, I would like to examine everyone of them with you to see if it is really referring to 144,000 Jews doing as you say. The JW's made that same literalistic mistake, they just identified them as different people----something they have had to adjust over the years.

When something is written primarily with the use of symbolic images, figures of speech, symbology is the very thing that must be employed in order to understand it. And with the "code", if you will, given within the same source from which they come. Especially when at the very beginning of the writing it becomes known as a series of visions and states that it will be signifying things. We have the entire OT, rife with these same symbols and figurative language, and that were well known, and well understood, by those who used them and heard them. Revelation is in large part, a spiritual book about spiritual things, things that played out in the temporal and historically, as we saw them. What we did not see, was the invisible power and actions and purpose behind those things. That is what Revelation is showing us. It is not tea leaves to read, or a crystal ball to consult. It is for comfort and steadfastness and a hope that is a certain.