Who are they, and where have they come from?

[Marty]

from Got Questions...
These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Are you referring to the coming of Christ at the rapture or the coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation?

Once again we’re does the bible say that the 144 000 preach the gospel?

Jesus says that when He comes back the judgement and separation would happen He didn’t say the second time He comes back

We need to stick with what the bible actually says

 

[CrowCross]

Once again we’re does the bible say that the 144 000 preach the gospel?

Then what were they doing? Standing around? Why would they not proclaim the gospel?

Jesus says that when He comes back the judgement and separation would happen He didn’t say the second time He comes back

Sounds like Jesus comes back and separates those who made it through the tribulation of Revelation.

We need to stick with what the bible actually says

OK....The angels say Jesus returns the same way He left in Acts 1. John tells us Jesus returns on a white horse in Rev 19.

{Edit: Violation of rule 4.7}

 

[Marty]

Then what were they doing? Standing around? Why would they not proclaim the gospel?

Sounds like Jesus comes back and separates those who made it through the tribulation of Revelation.

OK....The angels say Jesus returns the same way He left in Acts 1. John tells us Jesus returns on a white horse in Rev 19.

Now, if you want to stick with what the bible actually says...tell me where it says Jesus left on a white horse? The simple conclusion...Jesus returns twice. This fits like a glove concerning the pre-tribulation rapture then the actual second coming where at the physical return of Jesus on a white horse He stands on the Mt. of Olives and it splits...

If Revelation is literal and the 144 000 proclaim the gospel to the world wouldn’t revelation state that? We need to stick to what the scripture says and not what it doesn’t say.

Just as John hears of the lion of the tribe of Judah he then turns and sees the lamb that was slaughtered John also hears of the 144 000 and then sees the great multitude from every nation thus just as the lion is also the lamb the 144 000 is also the great multitude the church

The only thing revelation shows the 144 000 doing is standing on mount Zion before the throne singing. You do realize that it’s not even the twelve tribes mentioned in Revelation 7 don’t you

In Acts it just says that Jesus went up to heaven so then He will come down from heaven

John doesn’t tell us that Jesus comes down from heaven on a White horse it only says that John sees Jesus riding a white horse up in heaven there is no mention of Jesus coming to the earth in chapter 19 just that he defeats His enemies with the sword of His mouth which is His word not a literal weapon thus it’s not a literal battle

There is no mention of a 7 year tribulation in the entire Bible or a rapture 7 years before the second coming of Jesus. Paul’s tells us that the rapture is at the last trumpet the 7th trumpet in revelation we’re revelation tells us that it’s the time for judging and rewarding the nations

You didn’t answer my yes or no question yet could you please as I am answering all of your questions?

 

[CrowCross]

If Revelation is literal and the 144 000 proclaim the gospel to the world wouldn’t revelation state that? We need to stick to what the scripture says and not what it doesn’t say.

i guess there is no way it could be this.....14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Just as John hears of the lion of the tribe of Judah he then turns and sees the lamb that was slaughtered John also hears of the 144 000 and then sees the great multitude from every nation thus just as the lion is also the lamb the 144 000 is also the great multitude the church

The only thing revelation shows the 144 000 doing is standing on mount Zion before the throne singing. You do realize that it’s not even the twelve tribes mentioned in Revelation 7 don’t you

In Acts it just says that Jesus went up to heaven so then He will come down from heaven

face-palm......whatever. (chuckling.)

John doesn’t tell us that Jesus comes down from heaven on a White horse it only says that John sees Jesus riding a white horse up in heaven there is no mention of Jesus coming to the earth in chapter 19 just that he defeats His enemies with the sword of His mouth which is His word not a literal weapon thus it’s not a literal battle

15From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron.

Would you suggest the nations are on some other planet?

There is no mention of a 7 year tribulation in the entire Bible or a rapture 7 years before the second coming of Jesus. Paul’s tells us that the rapture is at the last trumpet the 7th trumpet in revelation we’re revelation tells us that it’s the time for judging and rewarding the nations

Which trumpet? The trumpet of God? The trumpet of angels....some feat trumpet???? The Donald Trumpet?

You didn’t answer my yes or no question yet could you please as I am answering all of your questions?

What is your yes or no question?

 

[Marty]

i guess there is no way it could be this.....14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

face-palm......whatever. (chuckling.)

15From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron.

Would you suggest the nations are on some other planet?


Which trumpet? The trumpet of God? The trumpet of angels....some feat trumpet???? The Donald Trumpet?

What is your yes or no question?

(i guess there is no way it could be this.....14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.)

Yes the gospel is proclaimed but it doesn't state that the literal 144 000 do it.

Paul stated more than once that the gospel had been proclaimed all over the world in his day.

(face-palm......whatever. (chuckling.)

Why such a childish reply can you at least debate with respect and not side step the statement?

(15From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron.)

(Would you suggest the nations are on some other planet?)

No but its not a literal battle its showing that Jesus defeats all of HIs enemies with His word.

Revelation 19
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

If the battle is literal then every person on the earth would be dead and if no one knows when the return of Jesus is then how would the beast and all of his armies know and be gathered waiting to make battle with Jesus?

(Which trumpet? The trumpet of God? The trumpet of angels....some feat trumpet???? The Donald Trumpet?)

Here is another ridicules reply that you side stepped the statement again how about the trumpet that Paul said.

(What is your yes or no question?)

Now this is surprising, I have answered all of your questions if you don't know which question then you side stepped again or you haven't even read my post so here it is again please answer yes or no.

Please answer yes or no does the bible show that the great tribulation is on the church in the verses that I provided?

 

[Marty]

i guess there is no way it could be this.....14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

face-palm......whatever. (chuckling.)

15From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron.

Would you suggest the nations are on some other planet?


Which trumpet? The trumpet of God? The trumpet of angels....some feat trumpet???? The Donald Trumpet?

What is your yes or no question?

Hello again did you see my reply in post #45 with the yes or no question?

 

[Josheb]

Who are they, and where have they come from?

In the book of Revelation we read the following account..

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands------->13 Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who are they, and where have they come from...was asked. The answer was given...they have come out of the great tribulation. Simple enough....but, what is the "great tribulation"?

Matt 24:21 helps us with an answer when Jesus says:
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again".

Question....Jesus tells us there will BE a future great tribulation...When and what was Jesus speaking of?
Question....who are the ones that have come out of this "there will be...great tribulation"?

Would you accept any explanation that wasn't consistent with modern futurism/Dispensational Premillennialism?

 

[Josheb]

Who are they, and where have they come from?

In the book of Revelation we read the following account..

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands------->13 Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who are they, and where have they come from...was asked. The answer was given...they have come out of the great tribulation. Simple enough....but, what is the "great tribulation"?

Then the question asked has been answered. The people in question are those who 1) washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and 2) come out of the great tribulation. Not just any tribulation, not just any great tribulation, but the great tribulation.

Matt 24:21 helps us with an answer when Jesus says:
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again".

Which is hyperbole. In order for the great tribulation to be worse than anything ever only seven (or fewer) people would survive. That's how many survived the flood. In order for the great tribulation to be more tribulational than the flood all life on land AND MORE would/will have to die.

Question....Jesus tells us there will BE a future great tribulation...When and what was Jesus speaking of?

No, Jesus told his disciples there would be a great tribulation. He did not tell us. Jesus was speaking to his disciples and he was looking them in the face, not us, when he said, "You will hear...." and "You will see..." ALL of those pronouns refer to his audience, those in attendance when he spoke, the disciples sitting with him on the Mount of Olives, not Christians living thousands of miles away two millennia later. There is absolutely no pronoun in Matthew 24 referencing people in the 21st century.

Question....who are the ones that have come out of this "there will be...great tribulation"?

Revelation 7 answers that question.

Revelation 7:14
These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Matthew 24:20-22
But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Whether past, present, or future, that tribulation is experienced by Christians. Dispensational Premillennialism teaches it incorrectly. Notice that part about "no life would be saved" and tie it to the tribulation being worse than anything ever. If it is literally worse than anything ever then only 1 to 7 people can survive and all other land-based life on the planet and more has to be destroyed. That means either only seven of us right here in this forum, or none of us, will survive. There was no rapture at the flood. If the great tribulation is worse than any other tribulation before or since then there cannot be any rapture removing people from the great tribulation!!!!! Dispensational Premillennialism contradicts itself.

 

[Marty]

Then the question asked has been answered. The people in question are those who 1) washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and 2) come out of the great tribulation. Not just any tribulation, not just any great tribulation, but the great tribulation.

Which is hyperbole. In order for the great tribulation to be worse than anything ever only seven (or fewer) people would survive. That's how many survived the flood. In order for the great tribulation to be more tribulational than the flood all life on land AND MORE would/will have to die.

No, Jesus told his disciples there would be a great tribulation. He did not tell us. Jesus was speaking to his disciples and he was looking them in the face, not us, when he said, "You will hear...." and "You will see..." ALL of those pronouns refer to his audience, those in attendance when he spoke, the disciples sitting with him on the Mount of Olives, not Christians living thousands of miles away two millennia later. There is absolutely no pronoun in Matthew 24 referencing people in the 21st century.

Revelation 7 answers that question.

Revelation 7:14
These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Matthew 24:20-22
But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Whether past, present, or future, that tribulation is experienced by Christians. Dispensational Premillennialism teaches it incorrectly. Notice that part about "no life would be saved" and tie it to the tribulation being worse than anything ever. If it is literally worse than anything ever then only 1 to 7 people can survive and all other land-based life on the planet and more has to be destroyed. That means either only seven of us right here in this forum, or none of us, will survive. There was no rapture at the flood. If the great tribulation is worse than any other tribulation before or since then there cannot be any rapture removing people from the great tribulation!!!!! Dispensational Premillennialism contradicts itself.

Amen fantastic quote I've been saying the same thing but even though the verse directly tells us that it's the church he just can't see it or even answer a direct question with a yes or no.

 

[Josheb]

Amen fantastic quote I've been saying the same thing but even though the verse directly tells us that it's the church he just can't see it or even answer a direct question with a yes or no.

It is sometimes difficult to recognize an allegiance to a theology is greater than an allegiance to God's word as stated, especially if that is all that someone has ever been taught, and even more so if any alternatives were misrepresented and criticized (made strawmen). The difficulty, where it occurs, is enormous, not slight. It is cases like Revelation 7:14 that make this apparent. There is, ironically, a way to read (interpret) the verse that somewhat salvages modern futurism but @CrowCross has never once presented it to me when I broach Revelation 7. It's not mentioned in the op and we're now three pages worth of posts into this discussion and not a peep about it. It presents its own additional inconsistencies (perhaps that is why it is never attempted) and so the problems with DPism persist and remain unsolvable. The entire theology should be ditched (or radically reformed to be consistent with scripture).

 

[CrowCross]

Hello again did you see my reply in post #45 with the yes or no question?

Yes. I felt no need to reply.

If you can't even respond to the different trumpets...then there is no reason to walk around that block with you.

 

[CrowCross]

Would you accept any explanation that wasn't consistent with modern futurism/Dispensational Premillennialism?

Sure, but you certainly haven't given me any reason to accept the orthodox amillenial position.

 

[Marty]

Then the question asked has been answered. The people in question are those who 1) washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and 2) come out of the great tribulation. Not just any tribulation, not just any great tribulation, but the great tribulation.

Which is hyperbole. In order for the great tribulation to be worse than anything ever only seven (or fewer) people would survive. That's how many survived the flood. In order for the great tribulation to be more tribulational than the flood all life on land AND MORE would/will have to die.

No, Jesus told his disciples there would be a great tribulation. He did not tell us. Jesus was speaking to his disciples and he was looking them in the face, not us, when he said, "You will hear...." and "You will see..." ALL of those pronouns refer to his audience, those in attendance when he spoke, the disciples sitting with him on the Mount of Olives, not Christians living thousands of miles away two millennia later. There is absolutely no pronoun in Matthew 24 referencing people in the 21st century.

Revelation 7 answers that question.

Revelation 7:14
These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Matthew 24:20-22
But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Whether past, present, or future, that tribulation is experienced by Christians. Dispensational Premillennialism teaches it incorrectly. Notice that part about "no life would be saved" and tie it to the tribulation being worse than anything ever. If it is literally worse than anything ever then only 1 to 7 people can survive and all other land-based life on the planet and more has to be destroyed. That means either only seven of us right here in this forum, or none of us, will survive. There was no rapture at the flood. If the great tribulation is worse than any other tribulation before or since then there cannot be any rapture removing people from the great tribulation!!!!! Dispensational Premillennialism contradicts itself.

Yes amen

 

[CrowCross]

Amen fantastic quote I've been saying the same thing but even though the verse directly tells us that it's the church he just can't see it or even answer a direct question with a yes or no.

It's funny how some expect a binary answer to an analog question.

For example...will Jesus return....the answer is YES! Most definitely. That's your simple digital "YES" answer....when the real answer is much deeper....Jesus returns TWICE....once at the rapture and then a second time on a white horse.

 

[Marty]

Yes. I felt no need to reply.

If you can't even respond to the different trumpets...then there is no reason to walk around that block with you.

Yes. I felt no need to reply.

If you can't even respond to the different trumpets...then there is no reason to walk around that block with you.

I did reply in post #45 the trumpet that Paul mentioned the last trumpet

Now this is something I have answered every single question that you have asked, and you won't even answer a simple yes or no question that is not a respectful way to debate. Remember over all we are on the same side, and we are only discussing non-essential doctrine so once more does the bible show that the great tribulation is on the church in the verses that I provided below?

Revelation 7:14
These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[CrowCross]

It is sometimes difficult to recognize an allegiance to a theology is greater than an allegiance to God's word as stated, especially if that is all that someone has ever been taught,

Are you claiming that's all I've been Taught? Have you seen my library? What gives you the right to make such a statement about me?

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 7:14
These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Well...duh.
Who are the ONES?

Perhaps you can reply back with something better than....they are the people who came out of the great tribulation. ...then claim you answered my question.

 

[Josheb]

Sure, but you certainly haven't given me any reason to accept the orthodox amillenial position.

I have not asked you to accept the orthodox amillennial position (although I do not know why any earnest and devoted Christian would eschew an orthodox position for an unorthodox one).

This is part of the problem to be solved. I frequently read appeals to some nowhere stated, supposed intent to persuade you to some other position when I have never once asked you to do any such thing. Every time that comment is posted it is a red herring. All I have ever asked you to do is accept what is explicitly stated in scripture and adjust your thinking, your doctrine(s) and your practice(s) accordingly. Never once have I ever said to you, "You must believe orthodox amillennialism," or "You must believe Reconstructionist Postmillennialism," or "You must believe end-times doctrine X." That's just a load of dross.

Revelation 7:14 clearly, explicitly states those people come through the great tribulation. That is what the verse states. That is how the verse identifies those people. They are the ones who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and came through the great tribulation. If the verse is read exactly as written and no eschatological biases are laid on the verse, then the inescapable conclusion is Christians go through the great tribulation. Several eschatological points of view are compatible with what is stated. Choose from among any of them if you like. One of them is still premillennial! One eschatology, however, is completely incompatible with what that verse explicitly states: Dispensational Premillennialism. If the allegiance is to scripture as written then DPism has to be discarded. An allegiance to DPism requires a discarding of reading that verse as written. That is the choice you're being asked to address, not an allegiance to one other alternative point of view in particular.

Discard that which clearly does not reconcile with scripture as stated and replace it with an alternative of your choosing.


The salient point is singular and simple: Rev. 7:14 answers the question asked in the title, and it does so definitively.




.

 

[Marty]

You guys are funny....if you don't understand something you claim it is symbolic..hyperbole.....and assign some kind of meaning to your symbol.

Is the number of dead the only way to count the level of tribulation severity? Here's a ...think out of it.



Using your logic....John 3:16 means nothing to us because Jesus wasn't speaking to us. As i've said before...you're trying to hard.


Yawn...this again????

How can you make such a ridicules statement like that about John 3:16

​

16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus states "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

 

[Josheb]

Are you claiming that's all I've been Taught? Have you seen my library? What gives you the right to make such a statement about me?

Can you address the subject and not the posters?

Rev. 7:14 answers the question asked in the title, and it does so definitively.


.