What type of Calvinist am I?

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Non-responsive to my post #132.

ELEANOR:

It seems that both of us are by-passing some elements of each other’s responses, due to, I assume, a lack of time because of our schedules. So perhaps the following will further clarify my position on Calvinism.

In Romans, chapter 9. the great apostle speaks of God’s mercy and compassion, as well as the objects of His wrath. Paul writes that before Esau and Jacob, twins, were born, God elected that Esau would serve Jacob (vs. 10-13). The twins represented two nations or races. One race was loved and the other race hated. God asserted His right to choose or reject nations. Paul does not seem to be addressing the election of some persons to eternal salvation and others to damnation. God’s purpose in election on this occasion related to nations. It was promised—elected—that Jacob should become the father of a great nation.

Then the apostle talks about Pharaoh and how God “raised him up” so that His power might be displayed (vs. 16-18). Again, the election was not of an individual to destruction, but of a man to be king for a special reason—to display God’s glory. Pharaoh’s hardening was at first his own decision. On five occasions, in Exodus, it is said that the king hardened himself. This being the case, God simply helped him along. God’s judgment made it harder for him! God gave him over to his own way (see Romans 1:26).

It should not be argued that God arbitrarily hardens the hearts of some people, thereby compelling them to be lost—as you seem to believe. Nor should we decipher from Paul’s message that because of God’s mercy, he requires others to be saved. This is not what Paul is advancing. I think it safe to conclude that God will have mercy and compassion upon those who are merciful, compassionate, and obedient, but he will demonstrate his wrath upon those who turn away from Him. Even Jesus taught the principle that God will be merciful to those who show mercy (Matthew 18:33).

But did God prepare some people for destruction and others for glory without giving them a will to contest His decision, as some feel verse 22 implies? If this is what Paul is advocating, we might as well trash our Bibles for they are surely contradictory! In verses 22-24, Paul is saying that the ungodly will receive God’s wrath. The “objects of His mercy”—those who show mercy—will receive His glory.

God prepared wrath aforehand for the ungodly, and glory aforehand for the righteous. God foreknew who the ungodly would be. These he “prepared for destruction.” God foreknew who the righteous would be. These He “prepared in advance for glory” (vs. 22-24). To conclude from Paul’s remarks that our Lord is unmerciful by forcing a segment of the world’s population to be lost and the remainder saved, is not the God I personally know.

Those who perish will be of their own accord. It will not be forced upon them. “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thess. 2:10). Perhaps you might want to explain that verse. Paul is strongly saying, indirectly, that if they had loved the truth, they would have been saved. There is no other option, in spite of your doctrinal sentiments.​

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Honestly, I found about half the questions to be mis-guided, containing fundamental errors in the question. The results aren't right - I hold neither Total Depravity nor Perseverance of the Saints. However, I do believe in Limited Atonement.

 

[Eleanor]

ELEANOR:

It seems that both of us are by-passing some elements of each other’s responses, due to, I assume, a lack of time because of our schedules. So perhaps the following will further clarify my position on Calvinism.
In Romans, chapter 9. the great apostle speaks of God’s mercy and compassion, as well as the objects of His wrath. Paul writes that before Esau and Jacob, twins, were born, God elected that Esau would serve Jacob (vs. 10-13). The twins represented two nations or races. One race was loved and the other race hated. God asserted His right to choose or reject nations. Paul does not seem to be addressing the election of some persons to eternal salvation and others to damnation. God’s purpose in election on this occasion related to nations. It was promised—elected—that Jacob should become the father of a great nation.​

That is precisely what he is addressing, as seen in Ro 9:18, 21-23, 27, 30-32

Nor does this address post #132.

Then the apostle talks about Pharaoh and how God “raised him up” so that His power might be displayed (vs. 16-18). Again, the election was not of an individual to destruction, but of a man to be king for a special reason—to display God’s glory. Pharaoh’s hardening was at first his own decision. On five occasions, in Exodus, it is said that the king hardened himself. This being the case, God simply helped him along. God’s judgment made it harder for him! God gave him over to his own way (see Romans 1:26).
It should not be argued that God arbitrarily hardens the hearts of some people, thereby compelling them to be lost—as you seem to believe.​

The unregenerate are born with hardened hearts, until God softens some in rebirth.

All God has to do to "harden" a heart is to not soften it, to leave it to itself, which he does with the non-elect.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

That is precisely what he is addressing, as seen in Ro 9:18, 21-23, 27, 30-32

Nor does this address post #132.

The unregenerate are born with hardened hearts, until God softens some in rebirth.

All God has to do to "harden" a heart is to not soften it, to leave it to itself, which he does with the non-elect.

ELEANOR:

You need to address this paragraph, and especially the passage I submitted.

"Those who perish will be of their own accord. It will not be forced upon them. “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thess. 2:10). Perhaps you might want to explain that verse. Paul is strongly saying, indirectly, that if they had loved the truth, they would have been saved. There is no other option, in spite of your doctrinal sentiments."

They perished BECAUSE they refused to love the truth. They were not FORCED to be lost. It was a voluntary decision on their part.

As to Pharaoh, he hardened his own heart prior to God hardening it. As I said, "On five occasions, in Exodus, it is said that the king hardened himself. This being the case, God simply helped him along. God’s judgment made it harder for him! God gave him over to his own way (see Romans 1:26)."​

 

[Carbon]

Speaking from experience?

Thankfully, no.

 

[Eleanor]

ELEANOR:

You need to address this paragraph, and especially the passage I submitted.

"Those who perish will be of their own accord. It will not be forced upon them. “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thess. 2:10). Perhaps you might want to explain that verse. Paul is strongly saying, indirectly, that if they had loved the truth, they would have been saved. There is no other option, in spite of your doctrinal sentiments."
They perished BECAUSE they refused to love the truth. They were not FORCED to be lost. It was a voluntary decision on their part.
As to Pharaoh, he hardened his own heart prior to God hardening it. As I said, "On five occasions, in Exodus, it is said that the king hardened himself. This being the case, God simply helped him along. God’s judgment made it harder for him! God gave him over to his own way (see Romans 1:26)."​

Agreed.

 

[David1701]

Honestly, I found about half the questions to be mis-guided, containing fundamental errors in the question. The results aren't right - I hold neither Total Depravity nor Perseverance of the Saints. However, I do believe in Limited Atonement.

View attachment 576

Limited Atonement (better: "Definite Atonement") necessitates Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints, otherwise you could have the anomaly of people whose sins have been atoned for, being punished for those same sins, in hell.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Limited Atonement (better: "Definite Atonement") necessitates Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints, otherwise you could have the anomaly of people whose sins have been atoned for, being punished for those same sins, in hell.

If one holds to the mis-understanding that the atonement is for pre-selected individuals, that would be true.

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved. Yet the atonement is not universal, but only for a selected group.

-Jarrod

 

[David1701]

If one holds to the mis-understanding that the atonement is for pre-selected individuals, that would be true.

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved. Yet the atonement is not universal, but only for a selected group.

-Jarrod

All of which is completely unscriptural...

John 5:24 (MKJV) Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:44 (MKJV) No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:25-29 (MKJV)
25 Jesus answered them, I told you and you did not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you,
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

As you can see, salvation is individual, not by group membership. It is also irreversible.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

All of which is completely unscriptural...

John 5:24 (MKJV) Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:44 (MKJV) No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:25-29 (MKJV)
25 Jesus answered them, I told you and you did not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you,
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

As you can see, salvation is individual, not by group membership. It is also irreversible.

None of those verses say anything like that.

Also that isn't what this topic is about. If you want to talk about it, make a new topic and I'll be happy to discuss it with you there.

 

[David1701]

None of those verses say anything like that.

Also that isn't what this topic is about. If you want to talk about it, make a new topic and I'll be happy to discuss it with you there.

You brought up the claim that atonement is not for individuals and that salvation can be lost. I just provided proof that atonement is for individuals and that salvation is irreversible.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

You brought up the claim that atonement is not for individuals and that salvation can be lost. I just provided proof that atonement is for individuals and that salvation is irreversible.

No, you didn't.

 

[David1701]

No, you didn't.

Yes, I did.

Your turn.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Yes, I did.

Your turn.

Like I said, if you want to have the discussion, I'm happy to do it... just not in this topic. Here's a new topic:

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/who-has-been-elected-individuals-or-a-group-israel.1034/

Your turn, but for real this time.

 

[His clay]

All of which is completely unscriptural...

John 5:24 (MKJV) Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:44 (MKJV) No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:25-29 (MKJV)
25 Jesus answered them, I told you and you did not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you,
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

As you can see, salvation is individual, not by group membership. It is also irreversible.

It's amazing how a little scripture can refute a load of opinion.

 

[makesends]

Eleanor:

You noted, "We have no more to do with our spiritual rebirth than we did with our natural birth."

I think I need a clarification. The apostle wrote, "Without faith it is impossible to please God." If faith is not warranted on my part, I am not pleasing God. Consequently, I cannot experience the new birth without faith.

Additionally, "...God commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). Can a man be spiritually born without repenting or reforming his life? If not, then we most certainly do have something to do prior to being born again. Our God does not force or compel anyone to be born again.​

Where do you think the faith comes from? Are YOU capable of such faith —as weak, silly, selfish, self-centered, self-important and self-involved and fickle and ignorant, foolish and presumptuous as are all humans? Or must it after all be generated by the Spirit of God who possesses the very will and mind and wisdom of God, not to mention every other attribute of God?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Eleanor:

You noted, "Where do you think the faith comes from? Are you capable of such faith?"

If God has given us the ability to disbelief, and He has, He has also given us the ability to believe. To deny this is to entertain the idea that we are mere robots. There are hundreds of scriptures that totally disprove your doctrinal analysis.​

 

[Arial]

Eleanor:

You noted, "Where do you think the faith comes from? Are you capable of such faith?"

If God has given us the ability to disbelief, and He has, He has also given us the ability to believe. To deny this is to entertain the idea that we are mere robots. There are hundreds of scriptures that totally disprove your doctrinal analysis.​

Believe or disbelieve what?
If there are hundreds of scriptures that totally disprove that we do not have the faith necessary for salvation, why are none given here? How about you give four of these hundreds, not as proof texts isolated from their immediate context and also isolated from the full teaching of scriptures on the subject. And having done so, then explain their meaning in your own words.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

ELEANOR:

I have provided those scriptures in my other posts on this subject. Look them up. I'm busy with other matters. But it will not make any difference which scriptures I provide, you will probably reject or distort them. Such has been the case with every Calvinist I have ever dealt with.​

 

[Arial]

ELEANOR:

I have provided those scriptures in my other posts on this subject. Look them up. I'm busy with other matters. But it will not make any difference which scriptures I provide, you will probably reject or distort them. Such has been the case with every Calvinist I have ever dealt with.​

Did you mean this for Arial? I will take your answer as able to give the scriptures but unable to exegete them.