What type of Calvinist am I?

[Red Baker]

You do not make a lot of sense, no pun intended~ but before i can address this you need to give examples of what I have said using scriptures to support what you are saying, then we can talk.


I'm a Christian...disciple of Jesus Christ, my doctrine concerning Soteriology have people calling me a Calvinist~a label that I'm not ashamed of, yet I do want folks to know that my allegiance is not to a man, though a godly man, yet it is to Christ alone. I believe what I believe because I see it in the word of God as God's truth~and can defend it with scriptures.

So give me some examples of why you said what you did~until you do, there's no point of trying to defend what I have said, if the person who bring the accusation can not provide proof from the scriptures, it would be a fruitless labor. Beside, I will war with flesh and blood, that would be a carnal, God displeasing battle.

Meant to say I will not war with flesh and blood~sorry.

 

[atpollard]

Meant to say I will not war with flesh and blood~sorry.

No worries. I got it.

 

[atpollard]

@Red Baker
Upon closer examination, I owe you an apology for conflating your walls of text with those of @Buff Scott Jr.
I disagree with many of your points, but not the ones addressed in my comments to you.
Another time on another topic, for now … I just owed you an apology and expiation for the confusion.

 

[Ladodgers6]

View attachment 553
I am not keen on the ideas behind Molinism, but there is more TRUTH to that picture than you may realize.

My maternal Italian-American non-practicing Catholic grandparents demanded that their grandchild be baptized (like any good Catholic), while my “Easter and Christmas“ Methodist paternal grandparents were adamant that their grandchild would be raised Protestant and NOT Catholic. To preserve peace in his life, my atheist father had me baptized as an infant in a Lutheran Church.

Since I grew up in an atheist household, learning that “religion is the opiate of the masses”, and believing that there was no objective morality (Nihilism), … and since I set my enemies on fire … I think it safe to say that I was NOT within the New Covenant Community.

However, I think that God HAD chosen to set his mark on me and used people that were clueless of what they were doing to accomplish that will. A Lutheran prologue foreshadowing what God yet intended to do. It was just before I had the opportunity to join names like Kaczinski and McVeigh that God came to claim ownership of the life that He had reserved as an infant.

So there is incredible irony in that picture for me … and THAT is the type of Calvinist that I am. {Edit by Mod}

Thanks for sharing your story with us. I Love Luther by the way, he was the first Reformer I learned a lot from, specifically Justification by Faith Alone, and it's through this that we have peace with God and are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus.​

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

The New Covenant only contains believers.

Your statement assumes that the new covenant doesn't encompass those sheep who are not yet believers. But Jesus said otherwise: "I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." His covenant promises encompassed even those sheep who are not yet believers. So, no, it does not contain only believers. It does, however, contain only sheep. To the goats, he will say, "I never knew you." But he knows his sheep, and they know him, and they will listen to and follow him (become believers).

According to most Christians, Jesus says to people, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." But that is the complete opposite of what he actually said. (It's true. Go read it.) If God is eternal and omniscient, then the new covenant also contains unbelievers—that is, his elect who do not yet believe (including those elect who don't even exist yet, much less believe).

At any rate, one is baptized into the covenant community (the visible church). Even for credobaptists, that is no guarantee that the person is saved. Whether you affirm both infant baptism and believer baptism, or just believer baptism, basically all Calvinists recognize that a baptized person can be lost.

 

[makesends]

Hmmmm... Would you mind explaining that view? Thank you.

5 Views On Sanctification was a useful book. I knew J Robertson McQuilken (who represented the Keswick view in the book) personally, though not closely. Once I heard him give a message in which he said he had not sinned in years.

Yeah.

 

[Ladodgers6]

5 Views On Sanctification was a useful book. I knew J Robertson McQuilken (who represented the Keswick view in the book) personally, though not closely. Once I heard him give a message in which he said he had not sinned in years.

Yeah.

It's about deeds not creeds for these folks. He must be holier than the Apostle Paul who called himself the chief of sinners!

 

[Ladodgers6]

It's about deeds not creeds for these folks. He must be holier than the Apostle Paul who called himself the chief of sinners!

The New Perspective also places all their efforts in human hands, instead of the One Act of Obedience that made many righteous.

 

[Manfred]

Well that depends upon what you have read I think. There's much more to TD than simply saying the will of man is fallen. There's many books on the subject and many of them actually say that men are incapable of doing ANYTHING good. This is simply not the case.

Hi

Where you have to make the distinction is weather or not these good things done by atheists glorify God.
Who benefits by the good deeds done? The recipient benefits, and the giver expects the glory. It is ultimately selfish (self glorifying) and points right back to the depravity of man.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

 

[atpollard]

Once I heard him give a message in which he said he had not sinned in years.

Sometimes I can go HOURS without sinning in deed, word or thought - either by act or omission ... but then I wake up and I remember what the Greatest Commandments REALLY ask of me. So, I just throw myself on His mercy and trust in His righteousness.

(... but that's just me.)

 

[David1701]

Your statement assumes that the new covenant doesn't encompass those sheep who are not yet believers. But Jesus said otherwise: "I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." His covenant promises encompassed even those sheep who are not yet believers. So, no, it does not contain only believers. It does, however, contain only sheep. To the goats, he will say, "I never knew you." But he knows his sheep, and they know him, and they will listen to and follow him (become believers).

Yes, there are promises to the sheep, whether they are saved yet or not; however, they do not become part of the New Covenant, until they have been born again.

According to most Christians, Jesus says to people, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." But that is the complete opposite of what he actually said. (It's true. Go read it.) If God is eternal and omniscient, then the new covenant also contains unbelievers—that is, his elect who do not yet believe (including those elect who don't even exist yet, much less believe).

I'm well aware that Jesus said to some unbelieving Pharisees that they did not believe because they were not his sheep. I've pointed that out many times, on another forum.

The New Covenant does not contain any unbelievers. We become part of the New Covenant when God saves us.

Here are a couple of OT passages about the New Covenant.

Jer. 31:31-34 (Webster)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ez. 36:26,27 (Webster)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

At any rate, one is baptized into the covenant community (the visible church). Even for credobaptists, that is no guarantee that the person is saved. Whether you affirm both infant baptism and believer baptism, or just believer baptism, basically all Calvinists recognize that a baptized person can be lost.

Yes, I agree with this.

 

[makesends]

It's about deeds not creeds for these folks. He must be holier than the Apostle Paul who called himself the chief of sinners!

To be fair, he may have meant a different definition of sin, where he believed his deeds, if wrong, were not intended against God. "Mistakes". "Stumbling". One of my friends is Wesleyan, and believes in a "Second Work of Grace", after which he claims he never rebels against God.

My problem with both has to do with not only my personal experience, and the examples in Scripture, and the teaching in Scripture concerning sin, but the plain knowledge that the "old man" is still at work in us, warring against God.

 

[David1701]

To be fair, he may have meant a different definition of sin, where he believed his deeds, if wrong, were not intended against God. "Mistakes". "Stumbling". One of my friends is Wesleyan, and believes in a "Second Work of Grace", after which he claims he never rebels against God.

My problem with both has to do with not only my personal experience, and the examples in Scripture, and the teaching in Scripture concerning sin, but the plain knowledge that the "old man" is still at work in us, warring against God.

Yes; Wesleyans have a doctrine that they call "entire sanctification", after which experience they claim that a Christian becomes without sin. It is a heresy that is very destructive; it has landed a great many Christians in mental hospitals. In the honest, it leads to despair, because they never measure up to the standard; in the dishonest, it leads to simpering pride and denial.

I once spoke with a registered mental nurse, who confirmed that many Christians are in mental hospitals, precisely because of this false doctrine (mainly from Pentecostal, Salvation Army and Wesleyan Holiness type churches).

H. A. Ironside has written an excellent book on this subject, called "Holiness the False and the True".

 

[Binyawmene]

To be fair, he may have meant a different definition of sin, where he believed his deeds, if wrong, were not intended against God. "Mistakes". "Stumbling". One of my friends is Wesleyan, and believes in a "Second Work of Grace", after which he claims he never rebels against God.

My problem with both has to do with not only my personal experience, and the examples in Scripture, and the teaching in Scripture concerning sin, but the plain knowledge that the "old man" is still at work in us, warring against God.

There is a Latin phrase called "Ordo Salutis" (or Order of Salvation). But understanding the correct order of Soteriology in a Scriptural and theological context is not an salvation issue. For myself personally, I believe there are two different functional works of the Holy Spirit which is based on "subsequence and separability." The Spirit-baptism is a separate unique second experience from the salvation experience. This second experience is not concurrent with conversion, but rather subsequent to conversion and logically separate from conversion. The work of the Spirit in regard to salvation (like regeneration "Spirit gives birth to spirit" or sanctification "sanctifying work of the Spirit" etc.) and there is a whole separate distinctive work of the Spirit in regard to service in the role of the Church (like speaking in tongues and the doorway for all the other spiritual gift).

Sinless Perfection is a deceiving false doctrine and its basically calling God a liar.

1 John 1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

To be fair, he may have meant a different definition of sin, where he believed his deeds, if wrong, were not intended against God. "Mistakes". "Stumbling". One of my friends is Wesleyan, and believes in a "Second Work of Grace", after which he claims he never rebels against God.

My problem with both has to do with not only my personal experience, and the examples in Scripture, and the teaching in Scripture concerning sin, but the plain knowledge that the "old man" is still at work in us, warring against God.

We are to walk in the Spirit, we are to practice righteousness, but we will struggle with sin, because we are still in these sinful bodies of flesh. I do not condone sin, for we must walk in the Spirit and not the flesh, as the Spirit keeps conforming us in the image of Christ everyday. But to say we have no sin, is to call God a liar.

15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.​

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Yes, there are promises to the sheep, whether they are saved yet or not; however, they do not become part of the New Covenant, until they have been born again. ... We become part of the New Covenant when God saves us.

(1) What are these promises made to the sheep? If they are not covenant promises, then what are they? If they are covenant promises, then which covenant? Not the new, you said.

(2) On what terms were the elect chosen before the foundation of the world and predestined if not the new covenant?

Here are a couple of OT passages about the New Covenant.

It is not clear how those passages support your argument. I will need you to do a bit more than just quote them—like make a case.

 

[Agra Man]

I always wonder why there's so many different belief systems within Christianity. What leads some to be so absolute to the Scripture, and others take it figuratively.

follow that train of thought what is truth really? does the understanding of what real truth even matter if his word is so easily misused and adapted to fit our our own version of what truth is?

He is far more than anyone realizes we are far more than anyone realizes and the bond and connection with humanity and the kingdom of God is not something that any average Christian can find
And don;t get me wrong I am not by any means better than anyone else but I have found the truth only because this was not a game to me not a hobby to me and trust me it comes with attacks you go against the norm the flow the dictation that the enemy has laid out.

Either we are dead serious about this or not and it is not going to be easy when you are a threat to the enemy he will attack and your resolve will be tested but the truth of all truths will be shown to you the wonder that comes with it the glory of the kingdom the life that he alone gives it is more than worth it

I myself have almost died so many times this year alone because I dared to go that far with him but resides with me he literally lives in my room with me I can always see him in the exact spot he always is at I can confidently say he was telling the truth that he woul eat and drink withg us that he would reside with us

Believe me I know more than more most the cost of seeking after the real thing the enemy will attack he will use every tactic every weakness you hold but my friend if I could express to you the realness of himself his very presence being so deep and rich in your home it is more than worth the attacks

Jesus is the key this is a common thing but never understood never truly sought after I'm telling you this is not about what we believe or what denomination we abide by this is the main tactic of the enemy to seperate to confuse and divide yet everyone accept it everyone abides by it

I am legally blind I have had to go to the er so many times from almost dying that is why it is so hard for me to come online yet I believe I keep going I refuse to accept anything less than the truth.

We need to decide here and now why do we fight? why do we claim to call ourselves Christians? what is our reason for being strong and what does being strong even mean?

Either we are all in or not the world sees us as liars judgemntal hypocrites and for good reason. Jesus himself said it plain and simple it only take the faith of a mustard seed that we can ask anything of him in his name yet do you see this in this world?

We have salvation but after that what do we do with it? all the scripures we study all the so called truth we are seeking and what do we do with it?

By all means I myself should have given up the mental damage almost dying all the time is intense yet I still believe I still dare to go where no one else will and even with all this he resides and lives with me I know him personally I can tell you the traits atributes of himself and his nature I can tell you the actual truth of his kingdom what it actually is weho we are in it

Sadly though it falls of deaf ears everyone is far more concerned with their theology their vision of truth

I wish I could impart all he has given me to others I know the actual truth but we as the body are divided and broken and if it defies their own concept people tend to not hear or see

you want the real thing? you want to know who he really is? you have to decide for yourself who you serve you have to be dead serrious and willing to take all the enemy will go to to break you down this isn't a game he is not playing around and if anyone understands where we are in the end times we would know time is not our friend

I may not even survive but i speak anyways I can't even afford to eat I weigh 109
i have had to call 911 so many times yet I am here I still keep going and I dare to believe if someone like me is not enough to create that spark if my testimony still will not get people to be dead serious about him and their so called title of a believer than nothing else will

Either you seek the real thing or not give up your doctrines your understanding where you stand as a Christian seek the real thing defy the flow go where no one else will

 

[David1701]

(1) What are these promises made to the sheep? If they are not covenant promises, then what are they? If they are covenant promises, then which covenant? Not the new, you said.

(2) On what terms were the elect chosen before the foundation of the world and predestined if not the new covenant?




It is not clear how those passages support your argument. I will need you to do a bit more than just quote them—like make a case.

Oh, good grief!

I didn't think that I would have to explain the passages I quoted; they are self-evident. Anyway, here goes...

Jer. 31:31-34 (Webster)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, saith the LORD: {although...: or, should I have continued an husband unto them?}
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

P.S. The promises to God's sheep are in John 10. They will be brought to Jesus and there will be one fold and one Shepherd. They are clearly not part of that fold until they are brought to Jesus in faith.

This is God's promise of the New Covenant: God promises to put his law in their inner man and to write it upon their hearts. He also promises that everyone who is in the New Covenant will know him, that he will forgive their iniquity and not remember their sin.

Ez. 36:26,27 (Webster)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is also God's promise of the New Covenant, adding some more detail: God will give everyone in the New Covenant a new heart/spirit, taking away the hard heart and replacing it with a soft one. He will also put his Holy Spirit within everyone in the New Covenant and cause them to walk in his ways.

To summarise: everyone in the New Covenant has the following:

1) A new soft heart/spirit (i.e. born again)
2) Forgiveness of sin
3) God's law written in the heart
4) God's Holy Spirit indwelling
5) Caused to walk in God's ways

This obviously does not apply to infants who have been sprinkled, but who have not been born again. Entry to the New Covenant is not by being born physically, to Christian parents, but by being BORN AGAIN, by the Spirit of God, resulting in repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Actually, this is true of most all groups


who profess faith in the word of God, regardless which faith community one belongs to~Baptist, church of Christ, Church of God and its sisters~all except RCC and EOC, most in these two sects just follow what the Pope, or their priest tells them to believe~and most of them are not sincere in what they confess to believe. They use their religion as a policy to get them out of hellfire into heaven, etc.

Calvinist are overall not like them~they will earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints. Most all theological works have been done by the Calvinist starting with Augustine and his City of God works; Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion; Luther's book on the bondage of the will; Jonathan Edwards: Freedom of the will, on and on we could go~but the greatest of all was written by Samuel Richardson~Justification by faith! one of the best ever written as far I'm concerned~John Brine runs a close second, but he had the privileged to read Richardson.

All of these men basically taught the same truth with one voice! So you point is moot.


Now that's a down right untrue! You are dreaming, wishing that this is so~try to be honest with what you write. I have never seen a debate, or being in one, where those holding to arminianism even come close to exposing any weak link as far as Soteriology teaching in what is know as the doctrine of pure, free grace ~ never seen it and will never see it. Very confidence in saying this.

First, he does not have many sided theology as far as the doctrine of being saved from sin and condemnation~he has mainly one side. THere is a difference concerning where faith comes into play~but, bottom line they hold to free grace, and man's inability to cooperate with God in this salvation.

I have an appointment may come back and say more..RB

Red Baker:

BUFF: "The ordinary Calvinist will jump from pillar to post when he sees himself between a theological rock and a creedal hard place, denying this and affirming that—and all in an effort to free himself."

I have personally experiences this many dozens of times over the past few decades. So how can you say otherwise, unless you have the supernatural gift of discernment?

 

[Red Baker]

Red Baker:

BUFF: "The ordinary Calvinist will jump from pillar to post when he sees himself between a theological rock and a creedal hard place, denying this and affirming that—and all in an effort to free himself."

I have personally experiences this many dozens of times over the past few decades. So how can you say otherwise, unless you have the supernatural gift of discernment?

Well, I reckon the same way you said:

BUFF: "The ordinary Calvinist will jump from pillar to post when he sees himself between a theological rock and a creedal hard place, denying this and affirming that—and all in an effort to free himself." I have personally experiences this many dozens of times over the past few decades.

By being in the faith almost fifty years~and through thousands debates with different men of different faith throughout this world.