What type of Calvinist am I?

[Dave_Regenerated]

I don't believe in Total Depravity. That's because it's clear that every person is born with a conscience. I see no getting around that. I've read the scriptures that people use to claim this teaching and I'm not convinced. There are other scriptures, especially the words of Jesus himself, that strongly suggest it is wrong.

I don't know what that makes me then. Labels aren't very helpful in general. Apparently the T in TULIP is supposed to be the entire basis of the rest of ULIP. But I wouldn't agree with that either. For example, I believe that when God presents Himself to a person they can't say it wasn't irresistible grace, because it clearly is. As for Perseverance of the saints and the other Letters, it seems to be a yes and no thing.

I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist but I'm very impressed by the teachings of Reformed theology concerning the Sovereignty of God in general. I just love God's pure Holiness. I like the fact God is in control.

I also lean towards a more "mystical" view of encounters with God. I do not deny experiences people have except when they are clearly delusional or fantastic in various different ways that fall aside of Biblical parameters. I'm very much in favour of the teachings of Paramahansa Yogananda, a Hindu saint or mystic that blended Christianity and certain bits of Hinduism. I think a more spiritual approach to Christianity makes more sense. Theology tends to divide people. When some Christians in the Calvinist camp downgrade experience it literally makes zero sense to me. I am not a naive and gullible person that accepts everything that comes along in the spiritual marketplace, but very reason based and even skeptical. I do not believe that any church or denomination of Christianity is right about everything, and see many ways they have serious faults.

I believe in believers baptism too. I think the Charismatic or Pentecostal churches contain extremely ridiculous components that make Christians in the entire world look stupid to everybody else.

So I don't know how I would label myself. Perhaps "saint" (although I am no such thing) or Spiritual Christian with a general Protestant leaning. I find some parts of Catholicism true too but I don't subscribe to most of it.

 

[ReverendRV]

I don't believe in Total Depravity. That's because it's clear that every person is born with a conscience. I see no getting around that. I've read the scriptures that people use to claim this teaching and I'm not convinced. There are other scriptures, especially the words of Jesus himself, that strongly suggest it is wrong.

I don't know what that makes me then. Labels aren't very helpful in general. Apparently the T in TULIP is supposed to be the entire basis of the rest of ULIP. But I wouldn't agree with that either. For example, I believe that when God presents Himself to a person they can't say it wasn't irresistible grace, because it clearly is. As for Perseverance of the saints and the other Letters, it seems to be a yes and no thing.

I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist but I'm very impressed by the teachings of Reformed theology concerning the Sovereignty of God in general. I just love God's pure Holiness. I like the fact God is in control.

I also lean towards a more "mystical" view of encounters with God. I do not deny experiences people have except when they are clearly delusional or fantastic in various different ways that fall aside of Biblical parameters. I'm very much in favour of the teachings of Paramahansa Yogananda, a Hindu saint or mystic that blended Christianity and certain bits of Hinduism. I think a more spiritual approach to Christianity makes more sense. Theology tends to divide people. When some Christians in the Calvinist camp downgrade experience it literally makes zero sense to me. I am not a naive and gullible person that accepts everything that comes along in the spiritual marketplace, but very reason based and even skeptical. I do not believe that any church or denomination of Christianity is right about everything, and see many ways they have serious faults.

I believe in believers baptism too. I think the Charismatic or Pentecostal churches contain extremely ridiculous components that make Christians in the entire world look stupid to everybody else.

So I don't know how I would label myself. Perhaps "saint" (although I am no such thing) or Spiritual Christian with a general Protestant leaning. I find some parts of Catholicism true too but I don't subscribe to most of it.

Total Depravity doesn't deny the existence of the Conscience; this shouldn't be a reason to deny Total Depravity. Total Depravity basically means the Will of Man is Fallen; not that Man doesn't have a Conscience...

The Staff is always watching for Posters who begin as Calvinists, but start to deny it...

For reasons...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Total Depravity doesn't deny the existence of the Conscience; this shouldn't be a reason to deny Total Depravity. Total Depravity basically means the Will of Man is Fallen...

The Staff is always watching for Posters who begin as Calvinists, but start to deny it...

For reasons...

Well that depends upon what you have read I think. There's much more to TD than simply saying the will of man is fallen. There's many books on the subject and many of them actually say that men are incapable of doing ANYTHING good. This is simply not the case.

I don't think you have to worry about me denying Calvinism. I just stated I enjoy it's teachings on the Sovereignty of God, among other beliefs..

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Total Depravity doesn't deny the existence of the Conscience; this shouldn't be a reason to deny Total Depravity. Total Depravity basically means the Will of Man is Fallen; not that Man doesn't have a Conscience...

The Staff is always watching for Posters who begin as Calvinists, but start to deny it...

For reasons...

By the way "Charlie" Mr Spurgeon didn't agree with everything Calvinistic either.

I think I'm going to have to get a new keyboard now as my comma button just got stuck...

 

[ReverendRV]

Well that depends upon what you have read I think. There's much more to TD than simply saying the will of man is fallen. There's many books on the subject and many of them actually say that men are incapable of doing ANYTHING good. This is simply not the case.

I don't think you have to worry about me denying Calvinism. I just stated I enjoy it's teachings on the Sovereignty of God, among other beliefs..

Please, what books specifically?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Please, what books specifically?

I believe the Belgic Confessions says it. That's just one. Do you want me to trawl through all my books just to locate specific statements made about the subject to post it here? Ain't going to happen

 

[ReverendRV]

I believe the Belgic Confessions says it. That's just one. Do you want me to trawl through all my books just to locate specific statements made about the subject to post it here? Ain't going to happen

Start with the Belgic Confession...

 

[ReverendRV]

and who shall be convicted by the testimony of their own consciences, and being immortal, shall be tormented in that everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels.

Article 37: Of the Last Judgment

Finally we believe, according to the Word of God, when the time appointed by the Lord (which is unknown to all creatures) is come, and the number of the elect complete, that our Lord Jesus Christ will come from heaven, corporally and visibly, as he ascended, with great glory and majesty to...

www.prca.org

This Calvinist Confession doesn't deny the existence of a Fallen Conscience...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

and who shall be convicted by the testimony of their own consciences, and being immortal, shall be tormented in that everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels.

Article 37: Of the Last Judgment

Finally we believe, according to the Word of God, when the time appointed by the Lord (which is unknown to all creatures) is come, and the number of the elect complete, that our Lord Jesus Christ will come from heaven, corporally and visibly, as he ascended, with great glory and majesty to...

www.prca.org

This Calvinist Confession doesn't deny the existence of a Fallen Conscience...

I didn't say the conscience isn't fallen. I said people have a conscience. If they were Totally Depraved and incapable of doing anything good at all, which the Belgic Confession says, then the conscience would be non-existent. And it clearly does exist in people that aren't regenerated.

 

[Red Baker]

Also once it became obvious that Servetus would be executed he ( Calvin ) requested that the more merciful option of beheading by sword was used. The council refused his request and burned Servetus.

I have read that as well.

 

[Red Baker]

I didn't say the conscience isn't fallen. I said people have a conscience. If they were Totally Depraved and incapable of doing anything good at all, which the Belgic Confession says, then the conscience would be non-existent. And it clearly does exist in people that aren't regenerated.

I agreed~

John 8:1-9~"Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."

The Pharisees had a active conscience~but, I would say the conscience and heart are not one and the same.

I want to look more into this later in the day, I'm too busy now.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I may respectfully disagree with you~

John 8:1-9~"Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."

The Pharisees had a active conscience~I would say the conscience and heart are not one and the same.

I want to look more into this later in the day, I'm too busy now.

You aren't disagreeing with me, obviously. You definitely aren't based on what you just said.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

@Buff Scott Jr.
Did you take the test?

QVQ:

Not interested in a Calvinist test. I'm a free believer in Jesus Christ, not a Calvinist disciple.

 

[Rella]

Hmmmm ...

What Type of Calvinist Am I?
Your Result: Moderate Calvinist

80%
You are a 3-4 Point Calvinist. You probably believe in Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Perseverance of the Saints. You are most likely a Lutheran.

4 beliefs suggested and ummmmm only yes to one....

The fence is getting more comfortable every day

 

[David1701]

I don't believe in Total Depravity. That's because it's clear that every person is born with a conscience. I see no getting around that. I've read the scriptures that people use to claim this teaching and I'm not convinced. There are other scriptures, especially the words of Jesus himself, that strongly suggest it is wrong.

You have misunderstood something...

The people who believe in Total Depravity also believe that man has a conscience. These truths are not at odds with each other.

Total Depravity is the teaching that every aspect of man is corrupted by sin, not that man is as sinful as he could be.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

You have misunderstood something...

The people who believe in Total Depravity also believe that man has a conscience. These truths are not at odds with each other.

Total Depravity is the teaching that every aspect of man is corrupted by sin, not that man is as sinful as he could be.

I know you believe that and you think that is the case, but that is not what a lot of Reformed churches have believed historically. They outright state that man is incapable of anything good due to being corrupted by sin. As far as I am concerned, this is not a debate at all, it is a fact. Because it is irritating when people assert or state their opinions as if they were true facts about Reformed theology in concise statements, like you have just done here.

 

[Binyawmene]

Well, I'm not Dispensational, and I AM a Cessationist.

I hold to a Calvinistic Soteriology and Classical Pentecostal when it comes to Spirit-baptism. And it fits together quite perfectly in Scriptures and with my spiritual experiences. The doctrine is based on "subsequence and separability." The work of the Spirit in regard to salvation and a whole separate distinctive work in regard to service in the role of the Church. Although this can be misleading and can create confusion. The confusion usually arises based on someone's experience and not discerning your experience in accordance with Scriptures.
There are two different functions and works of the Holy Spirit, for instance:

a). The work of the Spirit in our salvation, like regeneration "Spirit gives birth to spirit" or sanctification "sanctifying work of the Spirit" etc. A person has salvation/already saved and has the dwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

b). The Spirit-baptism is a separate work and purpose. And is one of the subsequences in salvation, but after conversion, speaking in tongues usually accompanies or is evident of that Spirit-baptism, and the doorway for all the other spiritual gifts.​

Pentecostal doctrine is not saying a person is not saved or don't have the Holy Spirit. But suggesting a saved person doesn't have empowerment to equip them for service. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc. A person can be saved without having the Spirit baptism. Again, after conversion, faith itself is continuous and on-going process in one of the subsequences following after regeneration, and Spirit baptism is received by faith (Galatians 3:2, 14 "...so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit"). But the Spirit baptism always happens after conversion, it can be either immediate or an unspecified timing when receiving the Spirit baptism, as long it occurs after conversion.

Acts 19:1-7 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I hold to a Calvinistic Soteriology and Classical Pentecostal when it comes to Spirit-baptism. And it fits together quite perfectly in Scriptures and with my spiritual experiences. The doctrine is based on "subsequence and separability." The work of the Spirit in regard to salvation and a whole separate distinctive work in regard to service in the role of the Church. Although this can be misleading and can create confusion. The confusion usually arises based on someone's experience and not discerning your experience in accordance with Scriptures.
There are two different functions and works of the Holy Spirit, for instance:

a). The work of the Spirit in our salvation, like regeneration "Spirit gives birth to spirit" or sanctification "sanctifying work of the Spirit" etc. A person has salvation/already saved and has the dwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives.​

​

b). The Spirit-baptism is a separate work and purpose. And is one of the subsequences in salvation, but after conversion, speaking in tongues usually accompanies or is evident of that Spirit-baptism, and the doorway for all the other spiritual gifts.​

Pentecostal doctrine is not saying a person is not saved or don't have the Holy Spirit. But suggesting a saved person doesn't have empowerment to equip them for service. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc. A person can be saved without having the Spirit baptism. Again, after conversion, faith itself is continuous and on-going process in one of the subsequences following after regeneration, and Spirit baptism is received by faith (Galatians 3:2, 14 "...so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit"). But the Spirit baptism always happens after conversion, it can be either immediate or an unspecified timing when receiving the Spirit baptism, as long it occurs after conversion.

Acts 19:1-7 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

You would do better to dismiss any labels people use for Christianity and just say you are a Christian that believes in miracles today. Labels like "pentecostal" don't help anybody and confuse a lot of people.

 

[David1701]

I know you believe that and you think that is the case, but that is not what a lot of Reformed churches have believed historically. They outright state that man is incapable of anything good due to being corrupted by sin. As far as I am concerned, this is not a debate at all, it is a fact. Because it is irritating when people assert or state their opinions as if they were true facts about Reformed theology in concise statements, like you have just done here.

What I stated is not only true, but very well known.

Regarding unbelievers not being capable of anything good: this is also true. Whatever is not of faith is sin; so, anything any unbeliever does is sin, by definition, because it is not done in faith in the Lord. This does not mean that what he does is necessarily bad in man's sight, e.g. if he helps an old lady across the road, people will see that as a good deed; however, if it is done in unbelief, it is a sinful "good deed". Naturally, it would have been greatly worse if he had pushed her in front of a car; nevertheless, even the "good" thing that he did was sinful (because done in unbelief), just not as sinful as it could have been.

 

[Binyawmene]

You would do better to dismiss any labels people use for Christianity and just say you are a Christian that believes in miracles today. Labels like "pentecostal" don't help anybody and confuse a lot of people.

Thanks for the friendly advice. But I'm not concern about labels, and of course, nothing new under the sun. Besides, I know half of the posters here from CARM. And I've been called everything in the scribble book. I've been labeled as Catholic based on the Trinity views to Charismatic based on my Spirit-baptism views to Evolutionist based on my Old Earth views to a philosopher based on my Formal Logic studies, etc. Even the quiz "What type of Calvinist am I?" labeled me as a high 6-point Calvinist. You shouldn't take things so seriously, just do what you do, and keep up the good work.