What type of Calvinist am I?

[Carbon]

I'm a Keswick 5 point Calvinist. I'm from the Keswick movement theology.

Hmmmm... Would you mind explaining that view? Thank you.

 

[Rockerduck]

Well God "touched" me. literally. He Chose me and I received the Holy Spirit. About 30 yrs later I received the second 'touch", that supercharged the Holy Spirit. God gave me that second touch after a pastor laid his hand on my head to pray for me. I'll cut and paste;

The Keswick movement, also called the Higher Life movement, is a theological movement that originated in England in the early 19th century. It was heavily influenced by the teachings of John Wesley, John William Fletcher, and Adam Clarke. Since 1875 promoters have organized the annual Keswick Convention. Various Christian leaders have been involved in the Keswick Convention through the years, including missionaries Hudson Taylor and Amy Carmichael, devotional writer Oswald Chambers, and evangelist Billy Graham.

Essentially, Keswick theology and Higher life movement teaches that the Christian life consists of two primary crises (or major turning points): justification and sanctification, both of which happen at different times in the life of the believer. After salvation one must have another encounter with the Spirit; otherwise, he or she will not progress into holiness or the “deeper” things of God. This second encounter with the Spirit, in Keswick terminology, is called “entire sanctification,” “the second blessing,” or “the second touch.” This emphasis on a second, post-salvation experience corresponds with the Pentecostal idea of the “baptism” of the Spirit. Some Keswick teachers would even say that sinless perfection is possible after one receives the “second blessing.”

Although it is true that both justification (i.e., getting saved) and sanctification (i.e., becoming more like Christ) are vital aspects of the Christian life, overemphasizing the distinction between them tends to produce two different “classes” of Christian—those who are not being sanctified and those who are being sanctified. Moreover, according to Keswick theology, we can decide which camp we belong in, and the initiation of sanctification is something that depends on us after we are saved.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

“WHAT TYPE OF CALVINIST AM I?”
EDIT BY MOD

Moved to it's own thread

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/what-type-of-calvinist-am-i-discussion.1001/

​

 

[Red Baker]

Moved to the proper thread.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/what-type-of-calvinist-am-i-discussion.1001/post-34092

 

[Red Baker]

“And without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6).

What relation is our faith to regeneration? Not one thing. But, those who profess to believe and do not show forth faith, then let them know.......

without faith it is impossible to please God

Quickened, Made Alive, Regenerated​

But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God?​

Absolutely! Need proof? There are so many, which makes it difficult to know where to start. John 5:24~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

The Lord used a double verily to show us that very few believe what he was about to reveal to a person who loves and seeks after the truth.
The verb tense proves that faith is the results of being first born of the Spirit of God.

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life"~if one can hear and believe, that person hath, past tense, everlasting life, not that you will receive eternal life by believing, as you here are teaching.

A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation

Buff, no sinner can be receptive to the truth....impossible, because he is at enmity against God up until God regenerates him and creates within him a new amn, then and ONLY then, he can be receptive, but not until then. You are going against the scriptures~Romans 8:5-9 said that you are dead wrong in your understanding. I'll go with Paul and the word of God.

Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.”

Again, impossible, many have heard. and left harden, some have heard, and love what they hear, so WHO made the difference between them? 1st Corinthians 4:7~"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process

You are so wrong and have invented another method on how one is born again. Your theory goes against Jesus' teaching, which should make you to reconsider your position, but I'm sure it will not. Moe on this later....

as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17). The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews:

Buff, this tells me that most of the gospel of John is closed to your understanding, for that gospel was written, or given, that we MIGHT KNOW we have eternal life and the strongest evidence of eternal life is faith~it is not a condition as you are laboring to make it be, but faith is the evidence of one having eternal life, a huge difference.

John 20:31~"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

The sense of this scriptures is this:

that believing ye might have life through his name

You might have ( the knowledge of ) eternal life~truly, this is the very purpose of all scriptures for apart from them we would have NO KNOWLEDGE of any truth!

 

[QVQ]

You are a 6-Point Calvinist. You believe in all the traditional 5 points of Calvinism, but you also believe that we should burn heretics and burn heretical books.
Your Result: High Calvinist 87%
83% Augustinian Calvinist
83% Reformed Presbyterian
68% Moderate Calvinist
66% Hyper Calvinist
64%Reformed Baptist
40%Dispensationalist Calvinist
10% Low Calvinist
0% Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian

As @prism said "only thing I disavow the burning of heretics. I'll leave that for Rome."
I would disavow burning heretical books also.

 

[Rockerduck]

God chose this sinner and I didn't choose Him at all. God did all the work not me. That makes me agree with the T in Tulip and since I did nothing, I'm a U also. It was unconditional, now I'm an L. But the" I" didn't happen for me because when He touched me, I was saved right then and there. However my prayer life did increase, to get closer. So I'm an "1/2 "I". Yep, I'm a P.

 

[Rockerduck]

I scored 85%

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Shocking.

Considering there were really only 2 "dispensational" questions in the quiz I have to call shenanigans but still fun.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

What relation is our faith to regeneration? Not one thing. But, those who profess to believe and do not show forth faith, then let them know.......


Absolutely! Need proof? There are so many, which makes it difficult to know where to start. John 5:24~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

The Lord used a double verily to show us that very few believe what he was about to reveal to a person who loves and seeks after the truth.
The verb tense proves that faith is the results of being first born of the Spirit of God.

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life"~if one can hear and believe, that person hath, past tense, everlasting life, not that you will receive eternal life by believing, as you here are teaching.

Buff, no sinner can be receptive to the truth....impossible, because he is at enmity against God up until God regenerates him and creates within him a new amn, then and ONLY then, he can be receptive, but not until then. You are going against the scriptures~Romans 8:5-9 said that you are dead wrong in your understanding. I'll go with Paul and the word of God.

Again, impossible, many have heard. and left harden, some have heard, and love what they hear, so WHO made the difference between them? 1st Corinthians 4:7~"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

You are so wrong and have invented another method on how one is born again. Your theory goes against Jesus' teaching, which should make you to reconsider your position, but I'm sure it will not. Moe on this later....

Buff, this tells me that most of the gospel of John is closed to your understanding, for that gospel was written, or given, that we MIGHT KNOW we have eternal life and the strongest evidence of eternal life is faith~it is not a condition as you are laboring to make it be, but faith is the evidence of one having eternal life, a huge difference.


The sense of this scriptures is this:

You might have ( the knowledge of ) eternal life~truly, this is the very purpose of all scriptures for apart from them we would have NO KNOWLEDGE of any truth!

Red Baker:

I'll have more to say on this later today.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Red Baker & A Few Other Calvinists:

Before I specifically get into additional doctrinal aspects of Calvinism with you, allow me to share a few experiences with my Calvinist brothers—yes, they are my blood brothers in Christ although, as I view the matter, they are in error on this topic. Later, I hope to deal with isues such as, 1] Must the Elect Choose to be Saved? 2] Is God’s Grace Irresistible? 3] Must one be “Born Again” Prior to Faith and Repentance?

Most every Calvinist believer I’ve ever confronted has claimed misrepresentation. Their belief system is so multi-colored and in such dire chaos that it is almost impossible to “pin them down” to a specific point. Rarely—if ever—can you find two of them who understand their belief system alike.

The ordinary Calvinist will jump from pillar to post when he sees himself between a theological rock and a creedal hard place, denying this and affirming that—and all in an effort to free himself. The average Calvinist is less than virtuous with his many-sided theology. I’m speaking from experience. There are exceptions, of course, but if my experiences with Calvinists at large embody any validity, the average Calvinist is less than ethical with his Calvinistic perspectives.

I have dealt with various belief systems all of my life, but I must confess that the Calvinistic belief system is among the most perplexing and multicolored I’ve had the experience of encountering. It is not that I have failed to decipher and give fair research into the many-sided facets of Calvinism. I truly have. But irrespective of my efforts through the years to grasp the doctrinal goals and teachings of my Calvinist brothers, I am still at a loss to “tie this belief system down” to a specific order of comprehensible and consistent components.

This belief system is so vast, so detailed, so puzzling, so mystifying, and so cluttered with theological “odds and ends” that hardly any two of its adherents can reach a rational consensus. I know whereof I speak, because a few years ago I joined a Calvinistic Yahoo discussion group on the Internet and remained on it for a lengthy period. I tried my utmost to “pin down” the Calvinistic contributors to this list, but without success. They hardly agreed among themselves. Quite a few of them, when looking for an “escape door,” distorted the very scriptures they professed to uphold—seemingly, as least as I saw it, knowingly and deliberately. Well, to make a long story short, they excommunicated me from the list. Some of them were ugly and rude, mean and disrespectful—and all in the name of the Lord.

Yes, as I noted above, Calvinists are my brothers in the Lord. However, they truly do need to drop the Calvinistic persuasion and place the totality of their allegiance in Jesus. The main thrusts of the Calvinistic belief system and Jesus’ precepts and principles are truly at odds, in my opinion.

More later. ​

 

[prism]

@Buff Scott Jr., it would sure help if you were more specific with illustrations and aberrant doctrines. Very general.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Prism:

There's more to come, so hang in there.

 

[QVQ]

@Buff Scott Jr.
Did you take the test?

 

[Red Baker]

You are a 6-Point Calvinist. You believe in all the traditional 5 points of Calvinism, but you also believe that we should burn heretics and burn heretical books.
Your Result: High Calvinist 87%
83% Augustinian Calvinist
83% Reformed Presbyterian
68% Moderate Calvinist
66% Hyper Calvinist
64%Reformed Baptist
40%Dispensationalist Calvinist
10% Low Calvinist
0% Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian

As @prism said "only thing I disavow the burning of heretics. I'll leave that for Rome."
I would disavow burning heretical books also.

Are you speaking to me? I don't even believe in some of the five points of Calvinism. Here's where I stand:

Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Truth​

​

1. Calvinism and Arminianism represent two great camps of “Christendom” that we are outside of in our desire to stick to scripture alone.
   1. Historically and doctrinally, we are outside that great religious movement known as the Protestant Reformation, for it is still Roman.
   2. Currently, we are outside the great body of modern “Christianity,” for it is fulfilling the prophecy of Paul (II Timothy 3:1 – 4:5).
2. Calvinism broadly used is a comprehensive theological system, but we shall limit ourselves to consider salvation unto eternal life.
   1. Since John Calvin, Martin Luther, and other reformers did not return all the way to apostolic Christianity, we shall find Romanism.
   2. They did not expunge the sacramentalism, the ritualism, the form, the ministerial elite, the worldly education, the state church, etc.
   3. Calvin and most Calvinists are in error on the subjects (infants), mode (sprinkling), and purpose (covenant guarantee) of baptism.
   4. They are in error on the purpose (convey literal or spiritual Jesus) and interpretation (not a metaphor) of the Lord’s Supper.
   5. They are in error on the relationship of the first two Persons in the Trinity, as they teach Jesus Christ is a begotten God.
   6. They are in error on the identity of the church and the form of local church government, tracing themselves back to Rome.
   7. They are in error on the relationship of the church to civil authority and government, as they love to create state churches.
   8. It is often called the Reformed faith, but Jesus Christ and His apostles reformed His church (Luke 16:16; John 4:21-24; Heb 9:10).
   9. Rome cannot be reformed, for it is part of the great whore.
   10. Yet, we are thankful for ancient and modern Calvinists that assisted in our conversion from Arminianism to the truth of the gospel.
3. Since we deny freewill and teach God is sovereign in salvation by election and predestination, we are often accused of being Calvinists.
   1. For those not very knowledgeable or intending only the scheme of salvation, we may at certain times allow that we are Calvinists.
   2. However, we are hyper-Calvinists regarding salvation, for we teach regeneration before faith, a different purpose for faith and the gospel, and the definite possibility of God’s elect backsliding into sin and having their faith overthrown (but not losing eternal life).

Arminianism​

1. Arminianism essentially is a complete system of conditional salvation based upon man using inherent ability to perform conditions for it.
   1. It is not improperly called theistic humanism – it glorifies man as the determiner of his destiny and yet tries to glorify God as well.
   2. God is limited by man’s concept of fairness: man is a very capable creature still, and he must be in total control of his destiny.
   3. It begins with human rationalization about God that is comforting to the flesh rather than with God’s own revelation of Himself.
   4. In general, this is a very palatable theology, in that it makes man precious, God uncontrollably in love, and salvation for the taking.
   5. Arminianism will degenerate to modernism or other heresies, for God is lenient, and the need to save the lost justifies any means.

Calvinism​

1. Calvinism essentially is a complete system of salvation based unconditionally upon God, Who will cause man to fulfill his conditions.
   1. It is not improperly called theistic fatalism – it subordinates means to predestination and logically undermines human responsibility.
   2. It brings from Romanism several of the features of sacramental salvation and eventually reduces exertion through secondary means.

The Truth​

1. The truth distinguishes between unconditional and conditional aspects of God’s salvation, dividing between God’s work and our duty.
2. Arminianism in its five points is totally rejected as unscriptural and blasphemous against the intentions and accomplishments of Christ.
   1. Man is neither free nor able to cooperate with God for salvation (John 3:3; 8:43,47; 10:26; Rom 8:7-8 I Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1-3).
   2. God’s foreknowledge in election did not find any conditions met; it was of persons, not actions (Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Rom 8:29).
   3. Jesus Christ’s death accomplished salvation for His elect; it did not merely make it possible (Matt 1:21 Rom 5:10; Hebrews 9:15).
   4. The Holy Spirit’s work in applying salvation through regeneration is effectual and sure (John 3:8; Eph 1:19; Titus 3:5; I Pet 1:2).
   5. The elect cannot be lost nor separated from the purpose of God in salvation (John 6:38-39; Rom 8:28-39; II Timothy 2:16-19).
3. Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by brother Paul.
   1. Man’s nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation.
   2. God’s election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion.
   3. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeem.
4. However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistable Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth.
   1. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect.
   2. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things.
   3. This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it.
   4. They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc.
   5. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few.
   6. The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion.
   7. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer.
   8. The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect.
5. However, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding.
   1. Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail.
   2. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary.
   3. If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible?
   4. God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.

 

[Red Baker]

You are a 6-Point Calvinist. You believe in all the traditional 5 points of Calvinism, but you also believe that we should burn heretics and burn heretical books.

If you are speaking to me, then please consider: I do not know of any Calvinist that have burn heretics.

If you are thinking of Calvin then read the history concerning him and Michael Servetus~it was Servetus who went to Geneva to pick a theological fight with John Calvin~Calvin did not go looking for him.

Even after he was there, it was Calvin who spent hours trying to convert him and it was NOT Calvin who put him to death by burning, Calvin had no say so in the matter, if history is correct~I'll leave that up to others to determined but I have read enough to know NO CALVINIST has ever put to death those who disagree with them. Many Calvinist have been put to death, if you would like to see the list, read Foxe's book of Martyrs

Foxe's Book of Martyrs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I will say this~it was Calvin's strong position on the Trinity which I would say played a main part in Servetus being put to death. MIchael Servetus was more correct on his understanding than Calvin was on this subject, not to say he had it down perfectly but he was not far off from what we read others said he believe. Since Servetus' books were burnt we will never know exactly is beliefs on this subject, but they are close to what I see~that Jesus "as the Son of God" had a beginning, he is not the eternal Son which Calvin brought with him from the great whore! His last words:

27 October, Servetus was burnt alive atop a pyre of his own books at the Plateau of Champel at the edge of Geneva. Historians record his last words as: "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me."

 

[Red Baker]

Red Baker & A Few Other Calvinists:

Their belief system is so multi-colored and in such dire chaos that it is almost impossible to “pin them down” to a specific point. Rarely—if ever—can you find two of them who understand their belief system alike.
​

Actually, this is true of most all groups

The ordinary Calvinist will jump from pillar to post when he sees himself between a theological rock and a creedal hard place, denying this and affirming that—and all in an effort to free himself.

who profess faith in the word of God, regardless which faith community one belongs to~Baptist, church of Christ, Church of God and its sisters~all except RCC and EOC, most in these two sects just follow what the Pope, or their priest tells them to believe~and most of them are not sincere in what they confess to believe. They use their religion as a policy to get them out of hellfire into heaven, etc.

Calvinist are overall not like them~they will earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints. Most all theological works have been done by the Calvinist starting with Augustine and his City of God works; Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion; Luther's book on the bondage of the will; Jonathan Edwards: Freedom of the will, on and on we could go~but the greatest of all was written by Samuel Richardson~Justification by faith! one of the best ever written as far I'm concerned~John Brine runs a close second, but he had the privileged to read Richardson.

All of these men basically taught the same truth with one voice! So you point is moot.

The ordinary Calvinist will jump from pillar to post when he sees himself between a theological rock and a creedal hard place, denying this and affirming that—and all in an effort to free himself.

Now that's a down right untrue! You are dreaming, wishing that this is so~try to be honest with what you write. I have never seen a debate, or being in one, where those holding to arminianism even come close to exposing any weak link as far as Soteriology teaching in what is know as the doctrine of pure, free grace ~ never seen it and will never see it. Very confidence in saying this.

The average Calvinist is less than virtuous with his many-sided theology. I’m speaking from experience. There are exceptions, of course, but if my experiences with Calvinists at large embody any validity, the average Calvinist is less than ethical with his Calvinistic perspectives.

First, he does not have many sided theology as far as the doctrine of being saved from sin and condemnation~he has mainly one side. THere is a difference concerning where faith comes into play~but, bottom line they hold to free grace, and man's inability to cooperate with God in this salvation.

I have an appointment may come back and say more..RB

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Even after he was there, it was Calvin who spent hours trying to convert him and it was NOT Calvin who put him to death by burning, Calvin had no say so in the matter, if history is correct~I'll leave that up to others to determined but I have read enough to know NO CALVINIST has ever put to death those who disagree with them. Many Calvinist have been put to death, if you would like to see the list, read Foxe's book of Martyrs

Also once it became obvious that Servetus would be executed he ( Calvin ) requested that the more merciful option of beheading by sword was used. The council refused his request and burned Servetus.

 

[David1701]

If you are speaking to me, then please consider: I do not know of any Calvinist that have burn heretics.

If you are thinking of Calvin then read the history concerning him and Michael Servetus~it was Servetus who went to Geneva to pick a theological fight with John Calvin~Calvin did not go looking for him.

Even after he was there, it was Calvin who spent hours trying to convert him and it was NOT Calvin who put him to death by burning, Calvin had no say so in the matter, if history is correct~I'll leave that up to others to determined but I have read enough to know NO CALVINIST has ever put to death those who disagree with them. Many Calvinist have been put to death, if you would like to see the list, read Foxe's book of Martyrs

Foxe's Book of Martyrs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I will say this~it was Calvin's strong position on the Trinity which I would say played a main part in Servetus being put to death. MIchael Servetus was more correct on his understanding than Calvin was on this subject, not to say he had it down perfectly but he was not far off from what we read others said he believe. Since Servetus' books were burnt we will never know exactly is beliefs on this subject, but they are close to what I see~that Jesus "as the Son of God" had a beginning, he is not the eternal Son which Calvin brought with him from the great whore! His last words:

Umm...

Many who practised biblical believer's baptism were drowned, by Calvinists who still practised infant "baptism" (a hangover from Roman Catholicism), during the Reformation. This is indisputable historical fact.

I believe in TULIP and the Solas, but I also believe in believer's baptism.