What is too extreme when it comes to being a Christian?

[Josheb]

They were a distinct family line...

They were NOT Jews.


Say it. Don't hesitate, obfuscate, or avoid the point in any way. They were not Jews. Acknowledge the fact.

 

[jeremiah1five]

They were NOT Jews.


Say it. Don't hesitate, obfuscate, or avoid the point in any way. They were not Jews. Acknowledge the fact.

All mankind were Adamites.
Eber was the first Hebrew.
God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew
Isaac, Esau, Jacob were Hebrew. God change Jacob's name to Israel.
The children of Jacob were twelve sons. One of these sons was named "Judah" from which we get the name or designation "Jew."
Jew is used in general to identify all Hebrews descendant from Abram.

 

[Josheb]

All mankind were Adamites.
Eber was the first Hebrew.
God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew
Isaac, Esau, Jacob were Hebrew. God change Jacob's name to Israel.

You are still dodging the point. Were any of those men Jews?

The children of Jacob were twelve sons.

That is correct. That fact necessarily means "Noah, Abraham, children of Israel, House of Israel" were not Jews. Now say it: None of those listed in Post #13 were Jews. Acknowledge the facts of scripture.

One of these sons was named "Judah" from which we get the name or designation "Jew."

That is correct. That fact necessarily means "Noah, Abraham, children of Israel, House of Israel" were not Jews. Now say it: None of those listed in Post #13 were Jews. Acknowledge the facts of scripture.

Jew is used in general to identify all Hebrews descendant from Abram.

No, that is incorrect. The New Testament defines the descendants of Abraham, Israel, and Jews, not the Old Testament. Culturally, societally, geo-politically, the word "Jew" was used in ways wholly different than how God used the term covenantally and you have failed to discriminate between the two.

The fact is there were no Jews, there were no Judahites, no Judes, prior to the Hebrews entering the promised land and the tribes dividing the land and taking up residence in their respective places. The fact is the only reason the descendants of Abram/Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became known as Jews is because Judah was the largest tribe, the tribe that had the greatest portion of the land and therefore the largest border with the pagan nations and it was the pagans, NOT GOD, that gave all the tribes the label "Jew." Benjaminites do not properly call themselves Judahites. Neither do Simeonites. The fact they took on the label given to them by outsiders does not make then Jews.

You have been very selective with the facts of both scripture and history.


Now acknowledge the fact: That fact necessarily means "Noah, Abraham, children of Israel, House of Israel" were not Jews. Say it: None of those listed in Post #13 were Jews and say it now. Acknowledge the facts of scripture without further delay.

 

[CrowCross]

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations Which came against Jerusalem
Shall even go up from year to year To worship the King, the LORD of hosts, And to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zech. 14:16.

Christians will celebrate and worship Christ....but there is no longer any need to sacrifice animals and such as Jesus was the final sacrifice.

In your version what is the purpose of sacrificing animals?

 

[Arial]

They were a distinct family line that threaded its way through history to a point in time that when God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew, He (God) created a separation that clearly defined the seed of the woman from the seed of the serpent. There have always been two groups of people on the planet. Those people whom God made His people as opposed to those people He didn't. Circumcision was a sign to everybody as to who those people were that God treated differently and who were made His people.

The distinct family line is Seth, the one who carries the Seed promised in Gen 3.

Noah carried the Seed. Abraham carried the Seed. Judah carried the Seed. David carried the Seed. Christ is the Seed. This covenant, the covenant of redemption, was never made with the nation/state of Israel alone, but with the whole of creation itself. The whole world. Through the redemption of men, who are the cause of creation needing to be redeemed from fallen man. The Redeemer comes through Israel, not for Israel alone.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You are still dodging the point. Were any of those men Jews?

Yes. The tribe of Judah.

That is correct. That fact necessarily means "Noah, Abraham, children of Israel, House of Israel" were not Jews. Now say it: None of those listed in Post #13 were Jews. Acknowledge the facts of scripture.

That is correct. That fact necessarily means "Noah, Abraham, children of Israel, House of Israel" were not Jews. Now say it: None of those listed in Post #13 were Jews. Acknowledge the facts of scripture.

No, that is incorrect. The New Testament defines the descendants of Abraham, Israel, and Jews, not the Old Testament. Culturally, societally, geo-politically, the word "Jew" was used in ways wholly different than how God used the term covenantally and you have failed to discriminate between the two.

The fact is there were no Jews, there were no Judahites, no Judes, prior to the Hebrews entering the promised land and the tribes dividing the land and taking up residence in their respective places. The fact is the only reason the descendants of Abram/Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became known as Jews is because Judah was the largest tribe, the tribe that had the greatest portion of the land and therefore the largest border with the pagan nations and it was the pagans, NOT GOD, that gave all the tribes the label "Jew." Benjaminites do not properly call themselves Judahites. Neither do Simeonites. The fact they took on the label given to them by outsiders does not make then Jews.

You have been very selective with the facts of both scripture and history.


Now acknowledge the fact: That fact necessarily means "Noah, Abraham, children of Israel, House of Israel" were not Jews. Say it: None of those listed in Post #13 were Jews and say it now. Acknowledge the facts of scripture without further delay.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Christians will celebrate and worship Christ....but there is no longer any need to sacrifice animals and such as Jesus was the final sacrifice.

In your version what is the purpose of sacrificing animals?

The Law is spiritual.
In our born-again condition we are made spiritual.
Although still flesh and all flesh is contrary to the Spirit of God, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us believers who have experienced being born from above of the Spirit. The Law God promised to put in our inward parts is the Law given to Moses. It is He whom God promised to put in our inward parts, and it is He, the Holy Spirit who is that Law God gave to the children of Israel. Now, the Law/Holy Spirit instructs, guides, commands us from within and no longer from without. Thus, everything about the Law is spiritual and corresponds to the spiritual Law given to a natural people turned spiritual and so one must interpret the spiritual aspect of the Law not as given to a natural people but a spiritual people and learn the spiritual aspect of the 613 Laws given to the children of Israel. Instead of sacrificing a natural animal we sacrifice our bodies.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom. 12:1.

In what way do we sacrifice our bodies? The same way an animal was sacrificed under the Law except not naturally but spiritually.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it:
Thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Psalm 51:16–17.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The distinct family line is Seth, the one who carries the Seed promised in Gen 3.

Noah carried the Seed. Abraham carried the Seed. Judah carried the Seed. David carried the Seed. Christ is the Seed. This covenant, the covenant of redemption, was never made with the nation/state of Israel alone, but with the whole of creation itself. The whole world. Through the redemption of men, who are the cause of creation needing to be redeemed from fallen man. The Redeemer comes through Israel, not for Israel alone.

You were doing good until you went and added to the bible by adding Gentiles into the covenants.
The Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham is found in Genesis 15 and 17.
The Mosaic Covenant is found in Exodus and this covenant was made between God and the children of Israel/Abraham as per Genesis 15 & 17.
The New Covenant is made between God and the House of Israel and Judah.
None of these covenants include Gentiles because Gentiles are not the seed of Abram the Hebrew.

But there is a covenant made with Noah and his seed (Shem, Eber, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, twelve tribes, etc.), and this covenant is with a people called Adamites, before God caused a division between peoples through circumcision of the flesh which prefigures a circumcision of the "heart"/life later.

The Redeemer was prophesied to the children of Israel and to and for the children of Israel He came. He was not prophesied to Gentiles and was not sent to or for Gentiles. This is a great error. John states He came "appearing to Israel" not Gentiles. Jesus Himself said He was sent to only the lost sheep of the House of Israel not the house of Gentiles.

So, yes, the Redeemer is called Israel's Redeemer to redeem Israel and the Hebrew people as per the covenant promises of God.
There is no Gentile covenant. God made no covenant with Gentiles. If He did there would be Gentile Scriptures but there is not
And if you have truly been born again then I'd consider that you just might have Abraham's DNA in you for the covenant is with Abraham and his descendants and only those that are his seed are those Israel's Redeemer came to redeem. Through the exiles and scattering of the Hebrew people in history you, I, and everyone who thinks they are Gentile just might be a Hebrew mutt of mixed breed. Just like a Samaritan. They were "half"-Jew and half-Gentile but because they are still Abraham's seed, they will all be saved on/at the last day.

 

[CrowCross]

The Law is spiritual.
In our born-again condition we are made spiritual.
Although still flesh and all flesh is contrary to the Spirit of God, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us believers who have experienced being born from above of the Spirit. The Law God promised to put in our inward parts is the Law given to Moses. It is He whom God promised to put in our inward parts, and it is He, the Holy Spirit who is that Law God gave to the children of Israel. Now, the Law/Holy Spirit instructs, guides, commands us from within and no longer from without. Thus, everything about the Law is spiritual and corresponds to the spiritual Law given to a natural people turned spiritual and so one must interpret the spiritual aspect of the Law not as given to a natural people but a spiritual people and learn the spiritual aspect of the 613 Laws given to the children of Israel. Instead of sacrificing a natural animal we sacrifice our bodies.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom. 12:1.

In what way do we sacrifice our bodies? The same way an animal was sacrificed under the Law except not naturally but spiritually.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it:
Thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Psalm 51:16–17.

It's pretty hard to follow your mixing and matching.

It seems as if you have moved away from a future sacrifice of animals in the 1,000 years...to a sacrifice of ourselves. Which really isn't any different from now.

 

[Josheb]

Yes. The tribe of Judah.

No. Noah was not in or of the tribe of Judah. Abram/Abraham was not in/of the tribe of Judah. Neither were Isaac or Jacob. Neither were the other eleven tribes.

Say it. Acknowledge the facts of scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

No. Noah was not in or of the tribe of Judah. Abram/Abraham was not in/of the tribe of Judah. Neither were Isaac or Jacob. Neither were the other eleven tribes.

Say it. Acknowledge the facts of scripture.

They were in the linage that led up to the tribes. Satan tried to destroy the linage via Gen 6.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It's pretty hard to follow your mixing and matching.

It seems as if you have moved away from a future sacrifice of animals in the 1,000 years...to a sacrifice of ourselves. Which really isn't any different from now.

Christ fulfilled the Law. He is our substitute. He also dwells in us. Thus, as Jesus fulfilled every precept in the Law so have we through our indwelling substitute. The thing you might not understand is that the Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. When He indwells us at our conversion God sees us as fulfilling the Law which is the basis of our justification and being declared "Not Guilty."
And by being type and shadow of God's Law and dwelling in us He, the Holy Spirit, deals with our sin from within and brings conviction to a tender conscience just as the Law did from without to the children of Israel. If in our walk we lie He as the Law of God convicts our tender conscience of that sin and affects us to repent, be remorse, confess it, and hopefully, to repent of it.

The Holy Spirit is Spirit. The Law is spiritual. Both are the same. One is type and shadow, the other is the substance. If you as Gentile would change your beliefs that the Law has been "abolished" or is "obsolete" and study the Law of God and use a spiritual 'eye' and pray God to teach you then you will begin to see that every individual Law in God's Torah has spiritual equivalence. In other words, to a born-again believer who is commanded to obey God's Torah, you may outright see the letter of the Law but can now - as Jesus did - see the spirit of the Law and then your walk with God will deepen because you are honoring God by obeying His Torah, and you are learning the spiritual aspect of all 613 Laws in God's Torah and how they apply to the born-again believer the same way Jesus, the apostles, and the Jews did when they became born-again. But because Gentiles believe the Law is "abolished" and "obsolete" they are in effect saying the Holy Spirit is "abolished" and "obsolete" and displease God. They are living a lie and one day their sin will find them out!

 

[jeremiah1five]

No. Noah was not in or of the tribe of Judah. Abram/Abraham was not in/of the tribe of Judah. Neither were Isaac or Jacob. Neither were the other eleven tribes.

Say it. Acknowledge the facts of scripture.

They were Adamites until Eber and then the Hebrew came into existence. This is why God calls Abram a Hebrew in Genesis. So, when I say "Jew" I mean it loosely as applied to all of those elect of God from Adam to the last Jew born. You're just nit-picking.

 

[CrowCross]

Christ fulfilled the Law. He is our substitute. He also dwells in us. Thus, as Jesus fulfilled every precept in the Law so have we through our indwelling substitute. The thing you might not understand is that the Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. When He indwells us at our conversion God sees us as fulfilling the Law which is the basis of our justification and being declared "Not Guilty."

God see's us through the blood of Christ that fulfilled the law. Through Christ ALL of our sins have been removed and we are made innocent...just as if we never sinned in the first place....there is now no law for us to fulfill concerning salvation.

And by being type and shadow of God's Law and dwelling in us He, the Holy Spirit, deals with our sin from within and brings conviction to a tender conscience just as the Law did from without to the children of Israel. If in our walk we lie He as the Law of God convicts our tender conscience of that sin and affects us to repent, be remorse, confess it, and hopefully, to repent of it.

The Holy Spirit is Spirit. The Law is spiritual. Both are the same. One is type and shadow, the other is the substance. If you as Gentile would change your beliefs that the Law has been "abolished" or is "obsolete"

The law concerning salvation is obsolete and abolished for christians because they have been made clean by the blood of Christ shed on the cross. ALL of my sins have been imputed to Christ and Christ righteousness has be imputed to me.

and study the Law of God and use a spiritual 'eye' and pray God to teach you then you will begin to see that every individual Law in God's Torah has spiritual equivalence. In other words, to a born-again believer who is commanded to obey God's Torah, you may outright see the letter of the Law but can now - as Jesus did - see the spirit of the Law and then your walk with God will deepen because you are honoring God by obeying His Torah, and you are learning the spiritual aspect of all 613 Laws in God's Torah and how they apply to the born-again believer the same way Jesus, the apostles, and the Jews did when they became born-again. But because Gentiles believe the Law is "abolished" and "obsolete" they are in effect saying the Holy Spirit is "abolished" and "obsolete" and displease God. They are living a lie and one day their sin will find them out!

No, Christians are not saying the Holy Spirit is "abolished" and "obsolete".

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

[Josheb]

They were in the linage that led up to the tribes. Satan tried to destroy the linage via Gen 6.

That is not a point in dispute. It was argued the covenant(s) is ONLY with Jews, and there is no covenant with Gentiles, and "Noah, Abraham, children of Israel, House of Israel, etc., are all identified as being made covenant with God." The fact of scripture is that Noah was not a Jew, nor was he Hebrew. Abram was a Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), but he was NOT a Jew. Likewise, the "children of Israel" (Jacob) and "house of Israel" (Jacob) were not Jews, either. The first mention of "Jews" in scripture is 2 Kings 25:25!!!

In other words, our brother @jeremiah1five is woefully uniformed and posted multiple incorrect positions. His entire theology is built on falsehoods and not just one or two buy many. Many posters here have posted scores of posts correcting those arguments in many diverse/different ways and while some modicum of amendment has been made the overall position is still wrong.

And if you do not and cannot follow the arguments made so far or stick to the subject then do not expect me to collaborate. I consider it subterfuge.




The facts of scripture are that the Jews were brought into the covenant(s) God first established with their non-Jewish predecessors AND those covenants were not based on genetics, ethnicity, or bloodline. The promises made to Abraham were also made to Christ and Gentiles have been grafted into the exact same tree as Israel, the Israel that is Israel (not the Israel that is not Israel).


Luke 2:29-32
Now Lord, You are releasing Your bondservant to depart in peace, According to Your word; for my eyes have seen Your salvation, which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light of revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel.

Ephesians 3:4-12
By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

Gentiles have obtained righteousness where Israel has not.

Part of the everlasting covenant God made with Israel included Israel's destruction. That is a fact. It's an often-ignored fact, a fact just as true and undeniable, just as enduring as the promises of blessing.

@jeremiah1five..... you are wrong. You are wrong in many ways, not just one or two. The errors are demonstrable and objectively provable and verifiable, not matters of interpretation or opinion.

 

[Josheb]

They were Adamites until Eber and then the Hebrew came into existence. This is why God calls Abram a Hebrew in Genesis.

You're still dodging the question and refusing to answer what should be an answer readily given. Yes, Abraham was a Hebrew, but he was not a Jew. You have argued in many posts Jews are the only ones having a covenant with God and Gentiles do not. Noah was not Hebrew. Abraham was Hebrew but he was not a Jew. Neither were Isaac, or Jacob. There were no Jews until well after the sons of Israel (the sons of Jacob) entered the promised land. Those are the facts of scripture.

When you deny, neglect, or hide from the facts you are wrong. Always.

More importantly. the New Testament defines what makes a son of Abraham, a Jew, and an Israelite in ways that are not obvious in the Old Testament. Holding an OT-only view of Abraham, Hebrews, Jews, and covenant is wrong. The newer revelation is very import and very necessary. The Jews who had only Tanakh made A LOT of mistakes and their theology, their religion, reflected those mistakes. When God saw fit to reveal new, restored, and reformed information they refused to listen and they killed the messenger (as they had done many times previously).

So, when I say "Jew" I mean it loosely as applied to all of those elect of God from Adam to the last Jew born.

Where'd you learn to do that? It is not what scripture teaches .

So, when I say "Jew" I mean it loosely as applied to all of those elect of God from Adam to the last Jew born.

Yes, and when that happens it is wrong. It is unscriptural. Hiding behind over-generalization makes the problem worse, not better.

You're just nit-picking.

Whole scripture proves otherwise. Stop saying Noah was Hebrew. Stop saying Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were Jews. Stop saying the covenant was made only with Jews.

Stop it.

If you do not over-generalize then I will have nothing to nit-pick. Take responsibility for your own words. Stop posting claims that are not factually correct.



The promises made to Abraham were also made to Jesus, his seed. Few, if any, Jews in the Old Testament understood that. Those that did understand did so because God revealed it to them. The covenant was not made with the Jews; they were brought into an already-existing covenant made with their forefather who was not Jewish.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God see's us through the blood of Christ that fulfilled the law. Through Christ ALL of our sins have been removed and we are made innocent...just as if we never sinned in the first place....there is now no law for us to fulfill concerning salvation.

The law concerning salvation is obsolete and abolished for christians because they have been made clean by the blood of Christ shed on the cross. ALL of my sins have been imputed to Christ and Christ righteousness has be imputed to me.

No, Christians are not saying the Holy Spirit is "abolished" and "obsolete".

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:13–14.

His commandments are what He taught the people of God when He was on the planet. He taught Jews.
He taught Jews to be obedient to the Torah.
Those are His commandments.
The commandments He gave Moses for the people to obey.
IF you are His people, that is.

 

[CrowCross]

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:13–14.

His commandments are what He taught the people of God when He was on the planet. He taught Jews.
He taught Jews to be obedient to the Torah.
Those are His commandments.
The commandments He gave Moses for the people to obey.
IF you are His people, that is.

Can you list His commandments?

...I don't want to mss any of them. Thing is, I know I won't/can't keep all of them so according to you I will not have the right to eat from the tree of life and enter through the kingdoms gates.

But I know you're a super christian and know all of the commandments and keep them all....so, can you list them all so we here can keep them like you do?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Can you list His commandments?

...I don't want to mss any of them. Thing is, I know I won't/can't keep all of them so according to you I will not have the right to eat from the tree of life and enter through the kingdoms gates.

But I know you're a super christian and know all of the commandments and keep them all....so, can you list them all so we here can keep them like you do?

613 of them in the Torah (at least)

I am what I am.

 

[CrowCross]

I am what I am

Sounds like Popeye..

Now, your list???

We're all trying to get saved like you and have eternal life...so, can you post the commandments we need to follow?