What is our participation in the atonement?

[Eleanor]

Can you be glorified without suffering?

Glorification is the result of resurrection, not of anything else.

 

[Eleanor]

No!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

In the Greek there, "If" is not a condition, it is simply a fact. . .better translated "since" we suffer with him.

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Thks

 

[Eleanor]

The verse below is deliberately misquoted. Watch for the revision.

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and
Yahweh has laid on him the punishment of us all." (Isa 53:6)
It doesn't say "punishment" although that was laid on him too (Isa 53:5). No; it
says iniquity. In other words: Jesus didn't only take a beating for everyone's sins,
he also took the blame for them as if he were the one who committed everyone's
sins instead of us.

As in the OT sacrifices, the sins were laid on the animal with the laying on of the hand of the sinner (Lev 1:4, 4:4).

"By his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their
iniquities." (Isa 53:11)

The Hebrew word translated "justify" basically means to make someone innocent of
any wrong doing, i.e. exonerated; which in this case, is an administrative act of
God about which I understand nothing because it is so contrary to rational
jurisprudence.

There is no reason to be so uninformed.
It is not contrary to rational prudence, it is all perfectly according to rational prudence.

Justification is the result of salvation (remission of sin though faith), by the same faith as salvation (Ro 3:28).

Justification is, as you say, a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of sin free.
It is a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness, as is sanctification/holiness (Ro 6:19).

The end result is that when the books are opened at the great white throne event
depicted by Rev 20:11-15, there will be nothing listed with which to accuse me, viz:
it will be as though I have never produced anything but 100% sinless perfection my
entire life!
"Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who
justifies." (Rom 8:33)

The whole process from cross to great white throne seems to me an awful lot like
cooking the books and obstructing justice; but God has somehow figured out how
to do it on the up and up.

FAQ: If true that God is in a position to exonerate everyone and everybody by
means of Isa 53:6-11, then why is it that multiplied thousands will end up on the
wrong side of the afterlife?

REPLY: Because of doubt and indifference; i.e. the few that are chosen from among
the many who are called are selected, and will be selected, because their reaction
was appropriate.
_

 

[ReverendRV]

What is our participation in the atonement?

What does suffer for Christ’s sake mean? What does it include?

Thks

Don, we only participate in the Atonement by causing a need for it, by Sinning...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What is our participation in the atonement?

Nothing

The high priest performed the work in the temple on the day of atonement for all the people

The people did not do anything

What does suffer for Christ’s sake mean? What does it include?

We suffer when we are out doing Gods will. just by proclaiming his name, many suffer. it means sacrificing your needs for the needs of others.

Thks

yw

 

[ReverendRV]

Nothing

The high priest performed the work in the temple on the day of atonement for all the people

The people did not do anything

We suffer when we are out doing Gods will. just by proclaiming his name, many suffer. it means sacrificing your needs for the needs of others.

yw

You remind me of someone I know...

Wasn't the real Atonement for Sin accomplished in the Heavenly Holy of Hollies?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You remind me of someone I know...

Wasn't the real Atonement for Sin accomplished in the Heavenly Holy of Hollies?

Hmm. I do not think I ever heard this. Atonement was made in the cross. He who knew no sin was made sin for us.

 

[David Lamb]

Hmm. I do not think I ever heard this. Atonement was made in the cross. He who knew no sin was made sin for us.

Yes. We cannot "participate in the atonement," in the sense of contributing to it. It is all the work of our Saviour.

 

[ReverendRV]

Hmm. I do not think I ever heard this. Atonement was made in the cross. He who knew no sin was made sin for us.

Hebrews 9:12; He entered the holy of holies once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Jesus made THE Atonement in Heaven with his Blood; only for the Sins which were CONFESSED upon his head. - THIS is Limited Atonement...

Otherwise, Universalism would be True if it Atoned for All...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hebrews 9:12; He entered the holy of holies once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Jesus made THE Atonement in Heaven with his Blood; only for the Sins which were CONFESSED upon his head. - THIS is Limited Atonement...

He made atonement on the cross. He shed his blood on the cross and suffers spiritual death on the cross for all mankind. This is how he made propitiation for all sins. Not only for ours. But the whole world

If he died for just confessed sin there will be no one in heaven. It is impossible for your or I to know every sin we have committed or re committing

Otherwise, Universalism would be True if it Atoned for All...

That could be true but it’s not

He who believes is not condemned. He who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed

Sin is not judged in revelation at the great white. Their works re. As Jesus said they will
Come in that day praising all their works. And Jesus will say depart.

Unbelief is the sin Jesus did not pay for.

 

[ReverendRV]

He made atonement on the cross. He shed his blood on the cross and suffers spiritual death on the cross for all mankind. This is how he made propitiation for all sins. Not only for ours. But the whole world

If he died for just confessed sin there will be no one in heaven. It is impossible for your or I to know every sin we have committed or re committing

That could be true but it’s not

He who believes is not condemned. He who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed

Sin is not judged in revelation at the great white. Their works re. As Jesus said they will
Come in that day praising all their works. And Jesus will say depart.

Unbelief is the sin Jesus did not pay for.

Nah, Atonement is made in the Holy of Hollies by our High Priest. Jesus was Sacrificed outside the Temple; like the Scapegoat of Old. Then the Priest enters the Temple to sprinkle the Sacrificed blood on the Ark of the Covenant. Atonement occured in the earthly Temple; or in the Heavenly Temple...

Right?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Nah, Atonement is made in the Holy of Hollies by our High Priest. Jesus was Sacrificed outside the Temple; like the Scapegoat of Old. Then the Priest enters the Temple to sprinkle the Sacrificed blood on the Ark of the Covenant. Atonement occured in the earthly Temple; or in the Heavenly Temple...

Right?

Jesus said it is finished. (Literally paid in full”

Was another sacrifice needed?

The curtain was ripped in two. Because the holy of holies was no more needed to
Teach Jesus fulfilled the law.

Sorry bro this is all I know I am not sure what you mean about heavenly holy if holies

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus said it is finished. (Literally paid in full”

Was another sacrifice needed?

The curtain was ripped in two. Because the holy of holies was no more needed to
Teach Jesus fulfilled the law.

Sorry bro this is all I know I am not sure what you mean about heavenly holy if holies

Those are good things to know, but there's more than that. If Christ were not Risen, we're to be most Pitied; because he couldn't have made an Atonement in Heaven: we'd still be in our Sins...

Think about it; why would we still be in our Sins if it were finished? Yes, the Propitiation was finished, but the Expiation wasn't...

Again, you are giving me the opportunity to speak to any Lurker who may be behind you. You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe Jesus Atoned for his people in Heaven; this is an Orthodox position...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Those are good things to know, but there's more than that. If Christ were not Risen, we're to be most Pitied; because he couldn't have made an Atonement in Heaven: we'd still be in our Sins...

Think about it; why would we still be in our Sins if it were finished? Yes, the Propitiation was finished, but the Expiation wasn't...

Again, you are giving me the opportunity to speak to any Lurker who may be behind you. You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe Jesus Atoned for his people in Heaven; this is an Orthodox position...

I just never heard this position.

Jesus died spiritually on the cross. He cried out My god my god why have you departed
From me

That was the atonement

Yes he was raised For our justification I agree 100 just never heard that. His resurrection proved the father accepted his payment in full

 

[ReverendRV]

Those are good things to know, but there's more than that. If Christ were not Risen, we're to be most Pitied; because he couldn't have made an Atonement in Heaven: we'd still be in our Sins...

Think about it; why would we still be in our Sins if it were finished? Yes, the Propitiation was finished, but the Expiation wasn't...

Again, you are giving me the opportunity to speak to any Lurker who may be behind you. You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe Jesus Atoned for his people in Heaven; this is an Orthodox position...

Propitiation and Expiation ~ by ReverendRV * August 19

Numbers 35:33-34 NASB; 'So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it. 'You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell; for I the LORD am dwelling in the midst of the sons of Israel.

There are two words used in the Bible which define Atonement for Sins; Propitiation and Expiation. I would like to discuss the meaning of both of these words, since both of the words are very rarely talked about. Propitiation means to make an Atonement for something you did wrong; to Pay for the Wrong that was done. In the Old Testament days, this is why they made Bloody Sacrifices; all Sin deserves Death. The animals that were used in these Sacrifices Covered Sins that we needed to be Forgiven for, and they died in place of Israelites as penalty for their Sins. God Commanded Israel not to defile their Land because he wanted to dwell with them; and to have fellowship with them. God cannot have anything to do with Sin though. Sin separated them from God. However, God loved them so much that he is Faithful to provide a Way to Pay for their Sin; IE through Propitiation…

Expiation is like Propitiation. Since Propitiation Pays the Wages of Sin, Expiation Removes Sin from your Record. The only place we see Expiation in the Old Testament is on the Day of Atonement, when two Goats were used for one Sacrifice. One goat was Sacrificed on an Altar for its blood, the other Goat Carried the Sins of Israel away; that’s Expiation. Propitiation and Expiation are often interchangeable but there is a difference; or there was. If only one goat was Sacrificed, Israel’s Sins couldn’t be ‘removed’; only Paid for. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? Yes. Has that Sin been removed? Without the Jewish Temple, you cannot even have a Day of Atonement to slaughter a goat, right? The Wages of Sin is Death, as seen in the Animal Sacrifice; would you be Guilty? Would you go to Hell? Does it bother you? ~ The Good News is that you don’t need a Temple, there’s another Way…

Propitiation and Expiation are no longer divided between two goats; they are now One in the Lord Jesus Christ! ~ For God so loved the world he gave his only Unique Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus kept God’s Ten Commandments his entire Life, so he qualified to be the Lamb who ‘takes away’ the Sin of the world. He did so by shedding his Blood and dying on God’s Alter, a Roman Cross; Propitiation was finished. He was buried but arose from his grave as the Scapegoat for Confessed Sins; if Jesus is not Risen, we are to be Most pitied because there is no Expiation for us. Jesus ascended to the right hand of God his Father, and will return to Judge the Living and the Dead. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith, without Working to Remove our Sin. Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and God, Repent of your Sinful ways; and God will Dwell with you, and in you. Find a local Church which loves this Gospel as much as you do. ~ The Bible says that God is our Savior, right? The duality of the two goats is a Sign Post directing us to the duality of God and Man in Jesus Christ. A Man can be slaughtered, but can he live again? If that Man is also God, he can; and he can Raise you from the Dead too, no Matter how long you have to wait…

Deuteronomy 4:29 NASB; "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find [Him] if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul