What is grace?

[Rella]

Yes; the reason why is because Grace is Unmerited. Like I said elsewhere, getting words and definitions right; goes a long way is correcting Dogma...

Practically EVERY Christian believes Grace is prevenient, that Grace is the first factor of Salvation. People haven't heard me say it lately, but if Faith is the first factor of Salvation; that person is saved by their very own Prevenient faith. It being their very own, Grace is no longer Grace...

Non Calvinists can't stand it when I mix Terms like Prevenient Grace, with words like Faith; I develop a New Term, 'Prevenient Faith'. This shows how ridiculous it is for them to insist Faith comes before Grace. My doing this works on the average Christian, but not on Posters who can't stand Calvinism. So, they keep on saying Faith is first; even if the Church thinks they're stupid...

Okay,
This makes a semblance of sense, to me.

I ,to be certain I understood the term correctly, looked up Prevenient Grace and find this definition.

Prevenient grace is the grace of God that precedes a sinner's saving faith in Jesus Christ. Learn how different Arminian theologians have explained this concept and how it contrasts with irresistible grace in Calvinism.

prevenient grace

noun​

1. An Arminian doctrine distinctive to Methodism and the broader Wesleyan movement. It holds that man is so fallen that he is utterly incapable of perceiving the need for salvation, but God, in His infinite wisdom, has preveniently extended to humankind sufficient grace that we can, through free will, willingly accept salvation.

And a more complete description of the Arminian thoughts can more easily be understood in this link of Got Questions.

What is prevenient grace? | GotQuestions.org

What is prevenient grace? How do common grace and irresistible grace relate to prevenient grace?

www.gotquestions.org

So... for clarity... "If grace is the first factor of Salvation.

Definition of grace being ~ and my understanding... until now!!!

1. Grace can be variously defined as "God's favor toward the unworthy" or "God's benevolence on the undeserving." In His grace, God is willing to forgive us and bless us abundantly, in spite of the fact that we don't deserve to be treated so well or dealt with so generously.

2. Merriam-Webster's list of definitions for grace includes: "Unmerited divine assistance granted to humans for their regeneration or sanctification ."
(I always thought the only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross)( I, also, always thought
to sanctify someone is to set that person or thing apart for the use by God)

3. Sola gratia, meaning by grace alone, is one of the five solas and consists in the belief that salvation comes by divine grace or "unmerited favor" only, not as something earned or deserved by the sinner.
(I always thought Sola Gratia was applied salvation after I had unwavering "faith" in the shed blood of Jesus who died for my . sins.)

4. Grace, in Christian theology, the spontaneous, unmerited gift of the divine favour in the salvation of sinners, and the divine influence operating in individuals for their regeneration and sanctification.
( I always had thoughts that were self confirmed the more I study that God... through the Holy Spirit... would continue to mold and form me as a child of God ... though I might trip and fall for a season...or two or even three, he would pull me back up and continue His work in me and through my undeniable faith in Jesus I was saved. AND I ALSO always believed that without my faith... I could not be saved.)

5. Grace is the unmerited, unearned love and favor of God. Discover God's riches for our lives through the grace he has given us as a free gift. The greatest gift of all is forgiveness of our sins through salvation in Jesus Christ. Because of the grace God gives us, we are able to then show grace to others as we seek to follow Jesus.
( I had always understood this to be salvation through Juesus Christ. Logic to me seemed to be "faith/belief" comes first.)

6. Grace: ( n.) The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor. 3. ( n.) The prerogative of mercy exercised by the executive, as pardon.

6 definitions that tell us exactly what Grace is, which seemingly all lean toward and overlap each other. GREAT!!!

Thank you for your response....

 

[Behold]

Jesus' atonement was just an offer?

Jesus said that "if I be lifted up (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me".

See that "draw"?

That is the offer of the Salvation, to ALL = that He has accomplished on the Cross, that He told you......"IT is Finished".

So, Salvation is finished, as Jesus is the Redemption and Eternal life. He is the Pardon, the propitiation, and the justification, that God accepts on our behalf.

John 14:6

But to get this acceptance, this "Gift of Salvation", requires that we BELIEVE.

"faith come by hearing", the Gospel.

"Faith is counted as righteousness".

"Justification BY faith".

This is the OFFER< that is : John 3:16

This is explained as :

2nd Corinthians 5:19

John 3:17

and Romans 4:8

 

[ReverendRV]

Okay,
This makes a semblance of sense, to me.

I ,to be certain I understood the term correctly, looked up Prevenient Grace and find this definition.

Prevenient grace is the grace of God that precedes a sinner's saving faith in Jesus Christ. Learn how different Arminian theologians have explained this concept and how it contrasts with irresistible grace in Calvinism.

prevenient grace

noun​

1. An Arminian doctrine distinctive to Methodism and the broader Wesleyan movement. It holds that man is so fallen that he is utterly incapable of perceiving the need for salvation, but God, in His infinite wisdom, has preveniently extended to humankind sufficient grace that we can, through free will, willingly accept salvation.

And a more complete description of the Arminian thoughts can more easily be understood in this link of Got Questions.

What is prevenient grace? | GotQuestions.org

What is prevenient grace? How do common grace and irresistible grace relate to prevenient grace?

www.gotquestions.org

So... for clarity... "If grace is the first factor of Salvation.

Definition of grace being ~ and my understanding... until now!!!

1. Grace can be variously defined as "God's favor toward the unworthy" or "God's benevolence on the undeserving." In His grace, God is willing to forgive us and bless us abundantly, in spite of the fact that we don't deserve to be treated so well or dealt with so generously.

2. Merriam-Webster's list of definitions for grace includes: "Unmerited divine assistance granted to humans for their regeneration or sanctification ."
(I always thought the only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross)( I, also, always thought
to sanctify someone is to set that person or thing apart for the use by God)

3. Sola gratia, meaning by grace alone, is one of the five solas and consists in the belief that salvation comes by divine grace or "unmerited favor" only, not as something earned or deserved by the sinner.
(I always thought Sola Gratia was applied salvation after I had unwavering "faith" in the shed blood of Jesus who died for my . sins.)

4. Grace, in Christian theology, the spontaneous, unmerited gift of the divine favour in the salvation of sinners, and the divine influence operating in individuals for their regeneration and sanctification.
( I always had thoughts that were self confirmed the more I study that God... through the Holy Spirit... would continue to mold and form me as a child of God ... though I might trip and fall for a season...or two or even three, he would pull me back up and continue His work in me and through my undeniable faith in Jesus I was saved. AND I ALSO always believed that without my faith... I could not be saved.)

5. Grace is the unmerited, unearned love and favor of God. Discover God's riches for our lives through the grace he has given us as a free gift. The greatest gift of all is forgiveness of our sins through salvation in Jesus Christ. Because of the grace God gives us, we are able to then show grace to others as we seek to follow Jesus.
( I had always understood this to be salvation through Juesus Christ. Logic to me seemed to be "faith/belief" comes first.)

6. Grace: ( n.) The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor. 3. ( n.) The prerogative of mercy exercised by the executive, as pardon.

6 definitions that tell us exactly what Grace is, which seemingly all lean toward and overlap each other. GREAT!!!

Thank you for your response....

That is well said. I'm not Arminian but they are right about a lot; IE GRACE Prevenes Faith. Arminianism calls Prevenient Grace "Illumination", and Calvinism calls God's prevening Grace "Regeneration". Calvin's Irresistible Grace is prevenient, and Arminius' Grace is Irresistible; because Arminius believed in Total Depravity. This means Illumination trespasses the Enmity of the Lost to thwart their Total Depravity against their Will...

Arminianism and Calvinism are closer than people think they are...

 

[Behold]

Arminianism and Calvinism are closer than people think they are...

Avoid both, completely.

Read and study the Apostle Paul instead.

And i didnt say, study Paul through them... as that is the Theological problem, for millions.

 

[Carbon]

First, thank you for your reply.

Jesus said that "if I be lifted up (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me".

See that "draw"?

Do you mind if I use context? Do you realize Jesus was not only talking to Jews but Greeks also? Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. John 12:20.

And you do know according to the Jews the Gentiles were unclean, they were dogs, etc...
Now think of Jesus' words. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. John 12:32.

Now, when Jesus ascended to the Father, did he draw all men (everyone) to himself? If he did, he failed miserably.

Don't you think "all men" in context could be all men, Jew and Gentile?

That is the offer of the Salvation, to ALL = that He has accomplished on the Cross, that He told you......"IT is Finished".

So, Salvation is finished, as Jesus is the Redemption and Eternal life. He is the Pardon, the propitiation, and the justification, that God accepts on our behalf.

Okay, but this does not help you at all with John 12:32. Do you want to stick with that for now?

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
Again, nothing in support of your view on John 12:32.

But to get this acceptance, this "Gift of Salvation", requires that we BELIEVE.

"faith come by hearing", the Gospel.

"Faith is counted as righteousness".

"Justification BY faith".

Okay. But according to scripture how does this happen?

This is the OFFER< that is : John 3:16

This is explained as :

2nd Corinthians 5:19

John 3:17

and Romans 4:8

How does this help you?
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. John 3:17.
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Rom 4:8.

All I see is you presenting some gospel verses. We know Christ is reconciling the world to himself. But you need to explain how this works with man's free will.
I also know Jesus did not come to condemn the world but to save it. You didn't have to tell me that, I already know, But hey, thanks for the reminder.

Again bud, How do you figure any of the above verses you presented helps you with your beliefs? It does not help at all.

Unless you want to take it as a literal, he meant to draw all men to himself. Then it would show he utterly failed. And therefore isn't worthy.

Jesus said that "if I be lifted up (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me".

See that "draw"?

 

[Carbon]

Avoid both, completely.

Read and study the Apostle Paul instead.

And i didnt say, study Paul through them... as that is the Theological problem, for millions.

Instead of giving another Christian brother advice on what to study and read, why not help yourself? Because so far you're not doing well with John 12:32.

Your teaching that Jesus' atonement was just an offering, an atonement which makes it possible for salvation, your way off the mark.

 

[Behold]

Now think of Jesus' words. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Your verse is Jesus speaking Prophetically about what is to come..

That is the same idea, (prophetically speaking) as something like Jesus saying..>"he that endures to the end" shall be saved.
And the person who isn't a real student of the word says..."that is what we have to do to stay saved"...
However, the context of Jesus's words is..."the abomination of Desolation".... so, this shows us that Jesus is speaking about the GREAT Trib, while talking to the Apostles.
So, if a person ends up there, then they missed the rapture, they are not born again, and now they have to endure to the END..... of the Great Trib, to be "saved". And that means more then likely they are going to be martyr'd.
Its beter to "believe in Jesus" now, in the "time of the Gentiles" and miss all that horror.

See....We know that Jesus was sent to the "House of Israel", and not to the Gentiles.
So, when we read.... that The Cross of Christ is given to "ALL" and not just the elect of course, then we are in agreement with Paul and John.

2nd Corinthians 5:19

John 3:16-17

And, After Jesus is On the Cross, then the "Church" is now about to begin.
He has to shed His blood so that the Believer's sin can be redeemed.
"without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, no pardon, no forgiveness"... ect.
The "Church" is ... "whosoever will believe" in the Eternal Redeemer who has now given Himself for ALL..

Who is "all"?

That's John 3:16.... = The WORLD. Its this... "Christ came into the world to save SINNERS"..

So, there is your "ALL". "If i be lifted up i will draw ALL".... Sinners. And who is that? Its "All have sinned".
Thats ALL of us, ever born.

Now, we have a NT, and what we do to avoid "doctrines of devils", is to always read the NT, Study it, "in LIGHT of the Cross".

In other words.... there is a transition from Old Testament to New, and from Old Covenant To New, as shown by this verse..

1.) The LAW came by MOSES... but "GRACE and TRUTH, came by Jesus". = Those are not the same.

This Transition is based on the CROSS of Christ, whereby verses that came before it, now have to be discerned in its Light.

What is this?
This is "progressive revelation".. as that is the Bible. Its ... what was before, and what is now, and what is to come".

One of the Keys to "rightly dividing" is to recognize that God never changes, but the way He deals with Man, does., and those changes have to be theologically understood, or you get into a fog of confused theology, and stay there.
We have to be careful that we dont apply something given to an Old Testament Jew, as if its doctrine for the Body of Christ
And we have to be double careful that we dont follow some MAN who isn't making that theological distinction in their theology, because they dont know how to : "rightly divide" and "the word of God is spiritually discerned".

This is "rightly DIVIDING".. and that is always based on seeing the verse in the Light of the Cross.

that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them

That is "The Gift of Salvation".

This is Jesus on the Cross.

This is "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"... as "the one time eternal sacrifice for Sin".

When we believe in Jesus, God allows Jesus to die for all our sin, and He then imputs the "righteousness of God in Christ" as our Redemption, "in Christ".

 

[Behold]

Instead of giving another Christian brother advice on what to study and read, why not help yourself?

Apply your own words to yourself, is your best idea today, Carbon.
Point your finger, at yourself and not at me.

So, im here to teach,.
I was invited here by another member and another moderator. And that's why im here...... SO, if someone asks me a question, lets hope that you dont mind if i respond to them.
Maybe its better if you just sit there and let members have a discussion as this is a FORUM that is designed for that to occur, or no?
What do you think?

Perhaps that's possible. ???

And if you have something to ask me, then feel free.
Absolutely.
Let's DISCUSS.... the word.. theology, opinions, whatever..
Its why we're here.

 

[ReverendRV]

Apply your own words to yourself, is your best idea today, Carbon.
Point your finger, at yourself and not at me.

So, im here to teach, and if someone asks me a question, lets hope that you dont mind if i respond to them.

Perhaps that's possible.

And if you have something to ask me, then feel free.
Absolutely.

Posters have been Banned for teaching Heresy. Be careful how you teach and what you say...

Calvinism is within the Pale of Christianity; right?

 

[Behold]

Posters have been Banned for teaching Heresy. Be careful how you teach and what you say...

Calvinism is within the Pale of Christianity; right?

Christians have been crucified, burned, and fed to lions by people who think that what they believe is "heresy"



So, is Calvinism within the pale of Christianity?

Well, its a particular Doctrine that many who claim to be Calvinists, adore.
There are even forums created just to spread John Calvin's Doctrine.
Did you know that, ReverendRV?

What i teach my Students is to study Paul's Doctrine, as Jesus called Paul to deliver to the Body of Christ, the Doctrine for the Church.

Paul said something, teaches something very interesting...
He said.
"Be a follower of ME.....as i follow Christ"

So, that is what i do, and that is what i teach., and nothing else.

I only teach "Pauline Theology".

 

[Carbon]

Apply your own words to yourself, is your best idea today, Carbon.
Point your finger, at yourself and not at me.

Sure bud, sure.

So, im here to teach,.
I was invited here by another member and another moderator. And that's why im here...... SO, if someone asks me a question, lets hope that you dont mind if i respond to them.

You were not invited here to teach, that's for sure. I know the mods.

Maybe its better if you just sit there and let members have a discussion as this is a FORUM that is designed for that to occur, or no?
What do you think?

Again, you were not invited to teach. If that is what you desire to do, then expect correction. Perhaps that's possible. ???

perhaps that possible?

And if you have something to ask me, then feel free.
Absolutely.
Let's DISCUSS.... the word.. theology, opinions, whatever..
Its why we're here.

Wake up. I don't know who you think you are, but if you have come here to teach your stuff, just be prepared, we can spot a wolf.

 

[Carbon]

Christians have been crucified, burned, and fed to lions by people who think that what they believe is "heresy"

And this has to do with what???

 

[Behold]

You were not invited here to teach, that's for sure. I know the mods.

Im not going to name their names....
But i can assure you that a mod from this forum, and a member, came to my PM box, on another Thread, based on my TEACHING, and asked me to come here, and not just once.
That's a fact. and you can believe it or not.
I just had a Berean Forum Mod do the same thing, and now im there as well.

And you are welcome to present your theology to me , and if you like to believe that its "correction" then feel free to believe it.

 

[Behold]

And this has to do with what???

It has to do with the idea that the member was stating that teaching heresy can get you banned.

So, what is interesting about that, is what i said..

Heretics are always trying to burn you, ban you, and lie about you......to other members.

You've heard this??

Believe me when i tell you that its not a rumor.

 

[Carbon]

Im not going to name their names....

You don't have to.

But i can assure you that a mod from this forum, and a member, came to my PM box, on another Thread, based on my TEACHING, and asked me to come here, and not just once.
That's a fact. and you can believe it or not.
I just had a Berean Forum Mod do the same thing, and now im there as well.

And you are welcome to present your theology to me , and if you like to believe that its "correction" then feel free to believe it.

Just be careful of what you teach. If it isn't biblical then it will be addressed. Happy posting.

 

[David1701]

That is well said. I'm not Arminian but they are right about a lot; IE GRACE Prevenes Faith. Arminianism calls Prevenient Grace "Illumination", and Calvinism calls God's prevening Grace "Regeneration". Calvin's Irresistible Grace is prevenient, and Arminius' Grace is Irresistible; because Arminius believed in Total Depravity. This means Illumination trespasses the Enmity of the Lost to thwart their Total Depravity against their Will...

Arminianism and Calvinism are closer than people think they are...

Arminianism and Calvinism are close on many things; but, not about "prevenient grace" vs "saving grace"; in fact, this is one of the hottest points of contention.

If we take a scenario in which two men hear the same gospel message, but one repents and believes, while the other continues in unbelief: who makes them to differ? The Arminian teaching makes man the one who makes himself to differ (his will, allegedly, having been freed by "prevenient grace"), while biblical saving grace teaches that God is the one who makes them to differ, by making one of them born again, giving him repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

This difference is so profound that I've often thought that it makes Arminianism another "gospel" of a different kind.

 

[Carbon]

This difference is so profound that I've often thought that it makes Arminianism another "gospel" of a different kind.

Same here.

 

[Josheb]

What is grace?

What kinds of grace are there?

Thanks

There is a popular acronym that says grace is God's Riches At Christ's Expense, and grace is commonly understood as "unmerited favor," but I learned from studying the Greek in Bill Mounce's website that the conjugation of "charis" proves relevant and important. For example, in the Ephesians 2:5-10 text charis is used genitively and datively. In verse 8 grace is an act of asserting causal effort or power. The salvation asserted is done with and by chariti (not faith absent grace, or faith of the sinner's flesh). This "gift" is given, but not as we might give someone a wedding present that they can leave unopened, or in which they can take joy but never use, consider nice but not important, re-gift, or treat any number of other ways (my wife and I just gave wedding gifts to three young couples marrying this weekend). It is a life-changing gift, a person-changing gift. The dependent construction of verses 8 through 10 is not one in which anything is dependent upon faith, but one in which the salvation and the person being saved, and his/her salvation are causally dependent upon the grace. It is not a passive voice; the chariti of Ephesians 2:8 is an assertion of divine might, an assertion of causal might that saves. It is not a dependency.

 

[Red Baker]

When considering grace as favour, we must define it as merited, unmerited, or demerited favour.

Sin has put us way outside God’s favor and under His righteous and terrible wrath upon sinners.

Merited favour would be a reward for good works, so the Catholics and foolish conditionalists, which takes in most sects.

Unmerited favour would be a gift to a neutral party, so we see the election and preservation of elect angels.

"Demerited" favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel.

True grace is demerited favour without obligation, worth, or conditions. Works are totally excluded.

By God’s definition, grace and works are mutually exclusive by their definition (Romans 11:5-6).

If a man works for righteousness before God, even by faith, it is debt and not grace (Romans 4:4-5). Faith is the system God has ordained whereby we come to know of our free justification~ it is the evidence and is no way the condition, medium, by which we receive God's free grace. It is by faith we receive the knowledge of our great salvation that we have freely in Christ.

Grace used as an acronym may properly define Biblical grace … God Rewards and Clears Enemies.

Grace = God does not judge and punish the elect as they do deserve, but He does honor and reward them with blessings they do not deserve.

This enhanced definition is like we do with justification.

 

[donadams]

Your initial statement was 'grace requires works to bear fruit'; I asked 'how much works?' and now instead of answering the question, you slipped in the topic of 'abiding' (Jn 15:5) which I take as our union with Christ..which is by grace! So we have gotten nowhere.
Let me start over, "How much works are needed before fruit bearing starts?"

Don’t we have to choose to abide in Him
It bears fruit immediately