What Happened In Acts?

[Dave]

OT SAINTS SAVED BY FAITH

First, to grasp what was happening in Acts, you must understand that the OT saints were also saved by faith. They put their faith in God that He would provide a Savior. God had passed over their sins until Christ died on the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

No ceremonial things ever saved anybody. This includes animal sacrifices, which pointed towards Christs death on the cross and was a reminder of sin, and also includes water baptism, which is an outward expression of an inward truth. No "types" can save. (read Hebrews 9)

Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God had passed over the sins committed by OT saints until Christ's substitutionary death on the cross. The OT saints still living after Jesus' death on the cross needed to be born again. The OT saints who were already physically dead, by their faith, were saved. They had to wait and were kept in the paradise side of hades until their sins were atoned for on the cross.

See the link for a greater explanation.

HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

WHAT HAPPENED IN ACTS?

A person cannot be born again without being baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him, this is what it means to be born again. This spiritual baptism is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, hence the term 'baptism with the Holy Spirit.' Nobody in the OT could be born again because there was no death or resurrection to be baptized into. They were kept in the paradise side of Hades until then. These OT saints needed to wait for Jesus to die on the cross to pay for there sins (Romans 3:25-26) before they could go to heaven (John 3:13, Ephesians 4:7-9). The OT saints still living needed to be upgraded (Born again), It was due to them (promise of the Father) because they had faith in Jesus, but to be baptized into the Body of Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, they first needed for Jesus to die on the cross to atone for their sins, to be resurrected, and to ascend and be glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. Then, and only then could He send the promise of the Father, 'the' Helper, 'the' Holy Spirit, who is the Agent of this spiritual baptism, so they could be baptized into His death and resurrection, i.e. born again, made one with Him, baptized into the Church-His Spiritual Body-"in Christ". After the transition of bringing OT saints (still living) to NT standards, the norm is "we are all baptized with one Spirit into one Body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). This happens for us now the first moment we believe in faith.


The difference between the nature of the relationship between the Holy Spirit and saints from the OT to the NT can be seen in John 14:16-18.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:23, Colossians 1:24

Christ is the Head of the Church. Ephesians 1:22, Ephesians 5:23

The birth of the Church. Acts 2 (birth = the first born again, the first baptized into the Body)

This is still a future event in Acts 1:5, Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9, Holy Spirit given Acts 2:33.

To be baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus is how we are born again. Romans 6:3-6, Colossians 2:9-12.

Jesus is the prophesied baptizer. Matthew 3:10-12, John 1:33-34, Acts 1:5

The Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13

You cannot be born again unless you are baptized into the Body of Christ. Romans 6:3-6, Colossians 2:9-12.

His baptism with the Holy Spirit is that which saves (not water baptism). 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5


Conditions that needed to be met. Nobody could be born again until.........

----A) Jesus died and was resurrected to atone for our sins.

----B) We were given the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit who is the agent of baptism, who will be the seal of our inheritance.


After Jesus' death and resurrection, 'the' Holy Spirit--'the' Promise of the Father--'the' agent of baptism, could then only be given after these happened first as prophesied.

...........1) Christ must go away, depart, physically seen no more. John 16:7, John 16:10.

...........2) He must be glorified. John 7:39.

...........3) To "send" the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, John 15:26, Acts 1:4-5) He must first go away.

...........4) He must go to the Father. John 16:7-10.


At Pentecost the conditions were met. (Acts 2:33)

1) They were not seeing Him (physically ascended)

2) He was glorified (exalted)

3) He could then "send" the Holy Spirit.

4) He was with the Father, at his right hand.

This is part of the transition from the OT to the NT. After those who were alive, in faith, both before and after Christ's death, resurrection and ascension, received the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit as the Agent of their baptism by Jesus into union with Him, being born again, the transition was over.


For us now...

We are all baptized into one Body. (Spiritual baptism, not water) 1 Corinthians 12:13 (norm for today)

There is one Body, one baptism. (Spiritual baptism, not water) Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

When you are baptized (Spiritual baptism, not water) into Christ and Born again, you are complete in Him. Colossians 2:9-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4

There is no need of a second blessing. John 3:34

Even during this transitional period, the saved by faith (old covenant) Old Testament saints needed to be upgraded to the New Testament baptism (born again, baptized into the body of Christ, the Church.) Acts 19:1-7.

This Gift from Acts 11:15 (the Holy Spirits permanent indwelling, sealed until the day of redemption) was the same Gift given to the Apostles at the beginning, i.e. The birth of the Church, which is Now for all nations and people. Acts 2:38, Acts 2:39. (also notice it is speaking of "the" Holy Spirit as the Gift.

Christ was the first in preeminence. Colossians 1:18

John 7:39, John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:16, John 16:7, John 16:10 were all fulfilled at Pentecost Acts 2:33, and not John 20:21-22.

Continued...

 

[Dave]

" the believers in Samaria who were converted under the ministry of Philip had to wait a short while to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, until Peter and John came up to Samaria and layed hands on the converts (Acts 8:17). In that unique transitional situation as the Church was beginning, those particular believers had to wait for the Holy Spirit, but they were not told to seek Him. The purpose for that exception was to demonstrate to the apostles, and to bring word back to the Jewish believers in general, that the same Holy Spirit baptized and filled Samaritan believers as baptized and filled Jewish believers--just a short while later Peter and a few other Jewish Christians were sent to witness to Cornelius and his household in order to be convinced that the gospel was for all men and to see that "the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also"(Acts 10:44-45). Those special transitional events did not represent the norm, as our present text makes clear, but were given to indicate to all that the body was one"....

"Why did the Samaritans (and later the Gentiles) have to wait for the apostles before receiving the Spirit? For centuries, the Samaritans and the Jews had been bitter rivals. If the Samaritans had received the Spirit independent of the Jerusalem, that rift would have been perpetuated. There could well have been two separate churches, a Jewish church and a Samaritan church. But God had designed one church, in which "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female," but "all are one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:2.)...

By delaying the Spirit's coming until Peter and John arrived, God preserved the unity of the church. The apostles needed to see for themselves, and give firsthand testimony to the Jerusalem church, that the Spirit came upon the Samaritans. The Samaritans also needed to learn that they were subject to apostolic authority. The Jewish believers and Samaritans were thus linked together in one body....

Today, believers receive the Spirit at salvation (cf.1 Cor. 12:13). There was no need for delay after Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, and Old Testament saints were already included in the church. (Macarthur)


Today...

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Romans 6:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13; cf. Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 4:4-6)

Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9.

While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

 

[Dave]

PARADISE

"While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham's Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25). As we mentioned before, Tartarus may be a specific place in Sheol/Hades.

We know that Jesus Christ went "into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, "in the heart of the earth," for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham's Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took "captivity captive" (see Eph. 4:8-10).

That Paradise was moved to heaven is confirmed to us by the Apostle Paul who speaks of a man who was "caught up into Paradise" where he "heard unspeakable words" (II Cor. 12:3,4). With Jesus Christ's work complete, the believers who had been confined to Sheol/Hades were now taken to Heaven to wait in God's presence until the time of their resurrection to enter His Kingdom on Earth. Since that time, at death all believers go to Paradise in Heaven to await the time of their resurrection. This is true whether they belong to the Kingdom Church of the future or the Body of Christ Church of the present Dispensation of Grace."

 

[Dave]

Old Testament saints all died in faith not having received the promises made to Abraham (Gen. 17:4, 18:18, 22:18; Rom. 4:13; Gal. 3:7, 9, 14, 29...

4:28 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."(see Eph. 2:12-22)

Gal. 3:16, 19 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ....What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Isa. 32:15, Until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, And the fruitful field is counted as a forest.

44:3, For I will pour water on him who is thirsty, And floods on the dry ground; I will pour My Spirit on your descendants, And My blessing on your offspring;

59:21, "As for Me," says the Lord, "this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says the Lord, "from this time and forevermore."

Jer. 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.

Ezek.11:19, Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,

36:27, I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Acts 1:4, 5, And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

John 7:38, 39, He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

16:7, 13: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

14:16, 17: And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

In Eph. 1:13 "Holy Spirit of promise."

Hebrews 11:39. And all these (OT saints), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

Gal. 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

 

[makesends]

A person cannot be born again without being baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him, this is what it means to be born again. This spiritual baptism is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, hence the term 'baptism with the Holy Spirit.' Nobody in the OT could be born again because there was no death or resurrection to be baptized into. They were kept in the paradise side of Hades until then. These OT saints needed to wait for Jesus to die on the cross to pay for there sins (Romans 3:25-26) before they could go to heaven (John 3:13, Ephesians 4:7-9). The OT saints still living needed to be upgraded (Born again), It was due to them (promise of the Father) because they had faith in Jesus, but to be baptized into the Body of Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, they first needed for Jesus to die on the cross to atone for their sins, to be resurrected, and to ascend and be glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. Then, and only then could He send the promise of the Father, 'the' Helper, 'the' Holy Spirit, who is the Agent of this spiritual baptism, so they could be baptized into His death and resurrection, i.e. born again, made one with Him, baptized into the Church-His Spiritual Body-"in Christ". After the transition of bringing OT saints (still living) to NT standards, the norm is "we are all baptized with one Spirit into one Body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). This happens for us now the first moment we believe in faith.

I disagree rather vehemently. I get your point, and it has its merits, but it presupposes the pervasiveness of temporal sequence in causal sequence. The necessity of Christ's death and resurrection is not in question. But, the lamb appeared at it were slain from the foundation of the world.

Not that I am right, because I can only say what seems reasonable to me, but in keeping with the notion that God himself is not subject to time, I say that what he does is also not subject to time except as he subjects it to time. I believe it makes sense that he spoke the finished product of his whole intent in 'even creating at all' into completion with a word. It was done, and he sees it and is satisfied. The fact that to us it takes eons is irrelevant.

There is a very definite dividing line between this life and the next —in our experience usually marked with physical death. That is where I disconnect, in my mind, temporal sequence from causal sequence. As in one of my arguments with @Tambora the notion that time is only sequence of events does not impinge on sequence of fact, (i.e. mere causality via authority), which may well be the way of God. (After all, "events" assumes the passage of time, in our minds, so it would seem circular to me to use it to prove the worthiness of temporal sequence after our point-of-view has been changed.)

Another objection will be posted below; I separate them for brevity's sake, and because the below is less philosophy than Scriptural POV.

 

[makesends]

A person cannot be born again without being baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him, this is what it means to be born again. This spiritual baptism is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, hence the term 'baptism with the Holy Spirit.' Nobody in the OT could be born again because there was no death or resurrection to be baptized into. They were kept in the paradise side of Hades until then. These OT saints needed to wait for Jesus to die on the cross to pay for there sins (Romans 3:25-26) before they could go to heaven (John 3:13, Ephesians 4:7-9). The OT saints still living needed to be upgraded (Born again), It was due to them (promise of the Father) because they had faith in Jesus, but to be baptized into the Body of Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, they first needed for Jesus to die on the cross to atone for their sins, to be resurrected, and to ascend and be glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. Then, and only then could He send the promise of the Father, 'the' Helper, 'the' Holy Spirit, who is the Agent of this spiritual baptism, so they could be baptized into His death and resurrection, i.e. born again, made one with Him, baptized into the Church-His Spiritual Body-"in Christ". After the transition of bringing OT saints (still living) to NT standards, the norm is "we are all baptized with one Spirit into one Body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). This happens for us now the first moment we believe in faith.

According to the reasoning of the Reformed and Calvinists, regeneration is necessary for there to even be salvific faith, itself a gift by the indwelling Spirit of God, made valid by the person of the Godhead that he is, and upheld by his continued dwelling (not a mere visit) therein. I find the OT saints no less the Temple of the Holy Spirit than the new.

I will easily enough admit that my view here seems at odds even with the majority of the Reformed on this site. I can't complain that they are wrong, as far as Reformed teaching, and by numbers, my view seems to be an outlier (but I don't claim to be Reformed, . —just monergist). I hope it comes across to them as mere wrong use of the evidences presented by Acts 2 and the OT methods and statements. But, I can't get away from the basic facts concerning the way of the Gospel. Nor do I see the time sequence (as I showed in part above) to be necessary in the "calculations".

If indeed Pentecost was when the Spirit of God of God came, and not before, to me it is satisfactory to consider it a 'sign' representation of what happens with the indwelling, which in one way or another to me was necessary in the OT for the very salvation by grace through faith in the Old Testament saints —there has only ever been one Gospel. But Pentecost may be closer to a representation of the sort of filling that occurred from time to time to the OT prophets and others —even to pagan Balaam, and, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"

Again. I see no way that the indwelling common (and necessary) to NT saints for their sinful nature to be changed from death to life, is not the same way for the OT saints.

I will read further what you say, and engage as I see necessary, but for now, consider, at least, that the temporal sequence of our view does not govern the acts of God. And, BTW, where the Scriptures seem to absolutely say that the temporal sequence is substantive, I don't argue that it is not, but in the main, God talks according to the ability of our poor concepts. I call it anthropomorphism, and it is legal where God does it. Beyond that, what God says is also absolutely true, word for word, and I can't get into the math, but what he speaks in anthropomorphisms, "we (generally) look at backwards" —what God means by it is true; OUR use of it, necessarily suspect.

 

[Dave]

I will easily enough admit that my view here seems at odds even with the majority of the Reformed on this site. I can't complain that they are wrong, as far as Reformed teaching, and by numbers, my view seems to be an outlier (but I don't claim to be Reformed,

I'll get back in more detail later. I just wanted to say that this view from the OP, as far as I know, wasn't really touched on by the reformers. If I remember correctly, this was a reason why I didn't care for the puritan John Owens. I didn't agree with his view of being born again. The way that I look at the old reformers, is that they had many more obstacles than we do today, and as a result, fewer people to bounce things off of. Plus, many times, they had to deal with a hierarchy that would send one to his death if he disagreed with the "church". I actually get just as much push back on this topic from reformers today as anyone else. Take a reformer out of his comfort zone, and he can get just as bad as the liberal theologians. That's been my experience. Reformers, sometimes, can be like the OT Jews, very stubborn. That can be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending...

My two favorite teachers, Macarthur, and Begg, as far as a I know, never really touched on this topic in any great detail.

Starting out in a Pentecostal church and needing to know what was true or false, my understanding of this topic was a natural byproduct of studying 1 Corinthians 12-14, and Acts. It's my thing, if you will, so I spent a lot of time on it. It's actually a lot to consider, as it branches out all through out scripture. In my studies, sometimes I run across someone who has gone over it already and done a much better job of explaining it than I could, in full or in part. Those would be some of the links that I provided. As Solomon said, nothing new under the sun.

I think it comes down to God's timing. Though I've noticed that I don't learn much of anything without the effort. It's like God wants to see if we're serious about wanting to know and learn, or is it just a passing curiosity. This one took quite a bit of study and just time contemplating it all in my mind. Sometimes I take that for granted and expect that people should see it right out of the gates because it's easy for me to see now. I forget how much it took to get me to this point.

Dave

 

[makesends]

I'll get back in more detail later. I just wanted to say that this view from the OP, as far as I know, wasn't really touched on by the reformers. If I remember correctly, this was a reason why I didn't care for the puritan John Owens. I didn't agree with his view of being born again. The way that I look at the old reformers, is that they had many more obstacles than we do today, and as a result, fewer people to bounce things off of. Plus, many times, they had to deal with a hierarchy that would send one to his death if he disagreed with the "church". I actually get just as much push back on this topic from reformers today as anyone else. Take a reformer out of his comfort zone, and he can get just as bad as the liberal theologians. That's been my experience. Reformers, sometimes, can be like the OT Jews, very stubborn. That can be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending...

My two favorite teachers, Macarthur, and Begg, as far as a I know, never really touched on this topic in any great detail.

Starting out in a Pentecostal church and needing to know what was true or false, my understanding of this topic was a natural byproduct of studying 1 Corinthians 12-14, and Acts. It's my thing, if you will, so I spent a lot of time on it. It's actually a lot to consider, as it branches out all through out scripture. In my studies, sometimes I run across someone who has gone over it already and done a much better job of explaining it than I could, in full or in part. Those would be some of the links that I provided. As Solomon said, nothing new under the sun.

I think it comes down to God's timing. Though I've noticed that I don't learn much of anything without the effort. It's like God wants to see if we're serious about wanting to know and learn, or is it just a passing curiosity. This one took quite a bit of study and just time contemplating it all in my mind. Sometimes I take that for granted and expect that people should see it right out of the gates because it's easy for me to see now. I forget how much it took to get me to this point.

Dave

My eyes aren't good for reading books anymore. Here I use a black background with white letters.

At one time, and maybe still, John Owen was my favorite author, but I haven't read him in quite some time. I'm not sure what of his teachings concerning soteriology —specifically, his view of being born again— there is that you could object to. Maybe you could be more specific.

Begg, I will credit with a more ecumenically acceptable presentation —something like how I read Spurgeon— though Calvinistic at the core. MacArthur, I see as mostly acceptable, besides to Calvinists and the Reformed, to the more Wesleyan-ish Dispensationalists, who accept some of his statements without seeing the contradiction to their Arminianistic self-determinism.

I assume from your statements concerning the past to refer to a vague Pentecostal/Charismatic notion that the filling and the indwelling of the Spirit are one and the same thing. Not sure. But I can see that you would want to remove yourself to a long distance!

Funny, about God's timing. Not that he doesn't reward effort —he certainly does!— but in my experience, what I thought I was after in my efforts and prayers are still, in that sense, beyond my reach —eg, faithfulness on my part, and purity, knowledge of him and the desire to be clear in my communicating his greatness, and on and on— yet in another sense he has given it me in spades, more than I can keep track of! [But what I am trying to remember to say here is that] it is always, ALWAYS, obviously according to his purposes and obviously DONE BY HIM and not by my efforts. Many times, I have to admit, to my shame, it is because of my failings that I come to know him better, in the painful details of his outrageous grace and mercy, and in their descriptions in Scripture, always new.

And I can't help but cry the painful beauty at being used by him in ANY tiny way, so contrary to my self-centered flesh. Maybe I can get into that, the picture of the precision available in power, here someday.

 

[Dave]

I'm going to post some of the scripture while it's on my mind.

Acts 2":25-33 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption (Psalm 16:10 below). This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Psalms 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (Three days equals physical corruption)

Ephesians 4:8-9 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? ....("Lower parts" means Hades, "captives" "prisoners 1 Peter 3:9 below, are those saints held in Hades before the cross.)

1 Peter 3:9 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (Hades)

Matthew 12:39-40 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. ("Heart of the earth" means Hades, Sign of Jonah, Jesus' death and resurrection.)

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My (Jesus) day, and he saw it and was glad."(see Romans 4:17-24, Galatians 3:6-29)

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. ("all of these" equals OT saints)

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


The link for post #3 It's also a very good read.
https://bereanbiblesociety.org/hell-sheol-hades-paradise-and-the-grave/

 

[Dave]

A false understanding of these doctrines is what lead to the false doctrine of subsequence. Defined...

"The doctrine of Subsequence. What that basically means is, that you get saved and sometimes subsequent to that, some later date, hopefully, you get the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is primarily the distinctive doctrine of Pentecostal Charismatic theology; that when you're saved you receive the Lord Jesus Christ, you are redeemed: at some later time you get the Baptism of the Holy Spirit--subsequent to that saving work."

 

[Soyeong]

OT SAINTS SAVED BY FAITH

First, to grasp what was happening in Acts, you must understand that the OT saints were also saved by faith. They put their faith in God that He would provide a Savior. God had passed over their sins until Christ died on the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

No ceremonial things ever saved anybody. This includes animal sacrifices, which pointed towards Christs death on the cross and was a reminder of sin, and also includes water baptism, which is an outward expression of an inward truth. No "types" can save. (read Hebrews 9)

Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God had passed over the sins committed by OT saints until Christ's substitutionary death on the cross. The OT saints still living after Jesus' death on the cross needed to be born again. The OT saints who were already physically dead, by their faith, were saved. They had to wait and were kept in the paradise side of hades until their sins were atoned for on the cross.

See the link for a greater explanation.

HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

WHAT HAPPENED IN ACTS?

A person cannot be born again without being baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him, this is what it means to be born again. This spiritual baptism is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, hence the term 'baptism with the Holy Spirit.' Nobody in the OT could be born again because there was no death or resurrection to be baptized into. They were kept in the paradise side of Hades until then. These OT saints needed to wait for Jesus to die on the cross to pay for there sins (Romans 3:25-26) before they could go to heaven (John 3:13, Ephesians 4:7-9). The OT saints still living needed to be upgraded (Born again), It was due to them (promise of the Father) because they had faith in Jesus, but to be baptized into the Body of Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, they first needed for Jesus to die on the cross to atone for their sins, to be resurrected, and to ascend and be glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. Then, and only then could He send the promise of the Father, 'the' Helper, 'the' Holy Spirit, who is the Agent of this spiritual baptism, so they could be baptized into His death and resurrection, i.e. born again, made one with Him, baptized into the Church-His Spiritual Body-"in Christ". After the transition of bringing OT saints (still living) to NT standards, the norm is "we are all baptized with one Spirit into one Body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). This happens for us now the first moment we believe in faith.


The difference between the nature of the relationship between the Holy Spirit and saints from the OT to the NT can be seen in John 14:16-18.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:23, Colossians 1:24

Christ is the Head of the Church. Ephesians 1:22, Ephesians 5:23

The birth of the Church. Acts 2 (birth = the first born again, the first baptized into the Body)

This is still a future event in Acts 1:5, Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9, Holy Spirit given Acts 2:33.

To be baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus is how we are born again. Romans 6:3-6, Colossians 2:9-12.

Jesus is the prophesied baptizer. Matthew 3:10-12, John 1:33-34, Acts 1:5

The Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13

You cannot be born again unless you are baptized into the Body of Christ. Romans 6:3-6, Colossians 2:9-12.

His baptism with the Holy Spirit is that which saves (not water baptism). 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5


Conditions that needed to be met. Nobody could be born again until.........

----A) Jesus died and was resurrected to atone for our sins.

----B) We were given the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit who is the agent of baptism, who will be the seal of our inheritance.


After Jesus' death and resurrection, 'the' Holy Spirit--'the' Promise of the Father--'the' agent of baptism, could then only be given after these happened first as prophesied.

...........1) Christ must go away, depart, physically seen no more. John 16:7, John 16:10.

...........2) He must be glorified. John 7:39.

...........3) To "send" the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, John 15:26, Acts 1:4-5) He must first go away.

...........4) He must go to the Father. John 16:7-10.


At Pentecost the conditions were met. (Acts 2:33)

1) They were not seeing Him (physically ascended)

2) He was glorified (exalted)

3) He could then "send" the Holy Spirit.

4) He was with the Father, at his right hand.

This is part of the transition from the OT to the NT. After those who were alive, in faith, both before and after Christ's death, resurrection and ascension, received the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit as the Agent of their baptism by Jesus into union with Him, being born again, the transition was over.


For us now...

We are all baptized into one Body. (Spiritual baptism, not water) 1 Corinthians 12:13 (norm for today)

There is one Body, one baptism. (Spiritual baptism, not water) Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

When you are baptized (Spiritual baptism, not water) into Christ and Born again, you are complete in Him. Colossians 2:9-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4

There is no need of a second blessing. John 3:34

Even during this transitional period, the saved by faith (old covenant) Old Testament saints needed to be upgraded to the New Testament baptism (born again, baptized into the body of Christ, the Church.) Acts 19:1-7.

This Gift from Acts 11:15 (the Holy Spirits permanent indwelling, sealed until the day of redemption) was the same Gift given to the Apostles at the beginning, i.e. The birth of the Church, which is Now for all nations and people. Acts 2:38, Acts 2:39. (also notice it is speaking of "the" Holy Spirit as the Gift.

Christ was the first in preeminence. Colossians 1:18

John 7:39, John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:16, John 16:7, John 16:10 were all fulfilled at Pentecost Acts 2:33, and not John 20:21-22.

Continued...

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Moreover, the fact that the OT saints received salvation means that reading the NT is unnecessary for salvation.

 

[Dave]

Hi Soyeong

Why were OT saint who had already died kept in Shoel, Abrahams bosom, and not allowed into heaven until after the cross? John 3:3,13

Dave

 

[makesends]

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Moreover, the fact that the OT saints received salvation means that reading the NT is unnecessary for salvation.

Agreed. In fact, at its most basic, the good news (Gospel) has always been the same.

It's interesting to me, and ironic, that the very words we use to narrow a definition, also scatter the meaning of what we mean to make complete. "The more the words, the less the meaning."

 

[makesends]

Hi Soyeong

Why were OT saint who had already died kept in Shoel, Abrahams bosom, and not allowed into heaven until after the cross? John 3:3,13

Dave

Maybe I missed something, but where does that reference imply that they experience time passage between death and resurrection?

 

[Dave]

Maybe I missed something, but where does that reference imply that they experience time passage between death and resurrection?

Hey makesends

I hope I'm understanding your question right. Without the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, one cannot be born again. It's impossible. The scripture that I posted from John, which was still the OT dispensation, said that unless a person is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. And a few verses later, it said none had entered into heaven except He Who came down from heaven. I'll add more context.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Ephesians 4:9-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades. captivity captive = OT souls kept in Hades. Jesus ascended and took Abraham's bosom, Hades/Sheol, Paradise with Him to the third heaven.

That's the short answer. The rest is in the OP and following posts.

Dave

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Maybe I missed something, but where does that reference imply that they experience time passage between death and resurrection?

Hey makesends

I hope I'm understanding your question right. Without the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, one cannot be born again. It's impossible. The scripture that I posted from John, which was still the OT dispensation, said that unless a person is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. And a few verses later, it said none had entered into heaven except He Who came down from heaven. I'll add more context.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Ephesians 4: Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades. captivity captive = OT souls kept in Hades. Jesus ascended and took Abraham's bosom, Hades/Sheol, Paradise with Him to the third heaven.

That's the short answer. The rest is in the OP and following posts.

Dave

Lol, I hope you are NOT understanding my question right, if it leads you to suppose that I think anyone can be born again without his death, resurrection and ascension.

I don't see where anything you said there teaches/implies time passage between death and resurrection.

 

[Dave]

I'm guessing that you are speaking of OT saints spiritually ascending after death?

Remember Abraham's bosom? That's in Hades, in the OT it's called called Sheol. That passage in Luke posted below is not a parable. Remember when Jesus told the thief on the cross that *today he would be with Him in Paradise? Jesus, the sign of Jonah, three days. Paradise, Abrahams bosom, was in Hades until Jesus ascended, taking Paradise/Abrahams bosom with Him to the Third heaven. That's when He "He led captivity captive", (see 1 Peter 3:19 below). That's the OT saints. Apply Ephesians 4:9-10 "...(Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)"

1 Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, prison equals Hades

The unbelievers are still in that holding cell, if you will, and are waiting along with the rich man for the great white throne judgment.

Abrahams bosom is where OT saints were kept until Christ Jesus "led captivity captive" when He ascended, they ascended with Him. I'm guessing that would be the resurrection that you were speaking of? If not, please define it for me so I'm not chasing the wind here.

Luke 16: 19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Abraham....

Gal. 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 11:39. And all these (OT saints), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

Gal. 3:16, 19 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ....What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Acts 1:4, 5, And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

It's all tied together. There a lot of scripture. Once it clicks in your head, then you'll see it everywhere. Before His ascension...

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Hebrews 11:39 above)

Dave

 

[makesends]

Remember Abraham's bosom? That's in Hades, in the OT it's called called Sheol. That passage in Luke posted below is not a parable. Remember when Jesus told the thief on the cross that *today he would be with Him in Paradise? Jesus, the sign of Jonah, three days. Paradise, Abrahams bosom, was in Hades until Jesus ascended, taking Paradise/Abrahams bosom with Him to the Third heaven. That's when He "He led captivity captive", (see 1 Peter 3:19 below). That's the OT saints. Apply Ephesians 4:9-10 "...(Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)"

1 Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, prison equals Hades

The unbelievers are still in that holding cell, if you will, and are waiting along with the rich man for the great white throne judgment.

Abrahams bosom is where OT saints were kept until Christ Jesus "led captivity captive" when He ascended, they ascended with Him. I'm guessing that would be the resurrection that you were speaking of? If not, please define it for me so I'm not chasing the wind here.

Luke 16: 19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

The fact it doesn't fit OUR meaning/use of "parable" does not mean it wasn't one, nor, even if not, that is does not, as the story that it obviously is, have some of the same characteristics as parables do. It IS a story; stories often get told according to current or mythological thought, or even caricature. Regardless, though, I find no reason to consider this story to be Jesus teaching us of the nature of things in the after-life, but for the "moral(s) of the story", usually obvious points. Here we have his allusions to his own resurrection, and the fact that disbelief remains disbelief in the face of compelling evidence, and the fact that rewards in the afterlife are not given according to what WE take for status or compliance with anything. I don't see any other sure lesson to be gained from the story as doctrinal teaching there.

As for the rest of it what you said, I still see no indication of time-passage in the afterlife.

 

[Dave]

Parables don't use names.

Dave

 

[makesends]

Parables don't use names.

Dave

Ok. But, does that mean that the whole thing was not a story to make a point or two, but every detail doctrinally applicable? Why?