What do you think of God?

[Manfred]

Hi Manfred,

God `divorced `Israel (for a time) for they were unfaithful. (Jer. 3: 8 & 14) Even today this is so for most of the people of Israel.

Those who believe in Jesus are the chosen ones in the Body of Christ. (Rom. 10: 4)

Not all Israel is Israel.
There are elect within Israel.

Israel, God`s elect - because of God`s purpose for a ruler over the nations. God established it by His promise to Abraham, (son of promise and not of man`s will) and then through Isaac, Jacob, (because the first-born Esau rejected his birth right). The lineage is because of God`s promise.

Not all Israel.

The Old Testament saints however, receive a different inheritance because they believe God for the promise of the heavenly city. (Heb. 11: 16)

So do the elect Israelites that come to faith in Christ.

The Body of Christ, God`s elect - because of the purpose for rulership with Christ on His own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21 Eph. 1: 20 - 23)

Individuals are elected by God.

 

[Marilyn C]

Not all Israel is Israel.
There are elect within Israel.

Not all Israel.

So do the elect Israelites that come to faith in Christ.

Individuals are elected by God.

HI Manfred,

It would help in the discussion if you would back up your statements with scriptures. Then we would have something to discuss.

 

[Marilyn C]

Can you explain how God's choosing Israel (Elect even within Israel) and Him choosing His bride differs and why it differs?

Rom 11:4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Hi again Manfred,

I must have missed your comments, sorry. Interesting question and thank you for asking.

Let`s start with God`s word.

`For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name;...` (Isa. 54: 5)
`For the Lord has called you like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, like a youthful wife when you were refused," says you God.` (Isa. 54: 6)

We see here that God refers to Himself as the husband (master) of Israel the wife. This is the nation of Israel. However, the nation as a whole rebelled, God `divorced` them and then finally God opens their eyes when the Lord returns and they receive their Messiah. Thus, the nation of Israel will again be `married,` joined to God.

`Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His WIFE has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7)

The `elect,` are those who obeyed God even through the nation`s rebelliousness - eg. Daniel, Ezekiel etc.

 

[Manfred]

HI Manfred,

It would help in the discussion if you would back up your statements with scriptures. Then we would have something to discuss.

Manfred said: Not all Israel is Israel.
There are elect within Israel.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Manfred said: Not all Israel.
So do the elect Israelites that come to faith in Christ.

Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Manfred said: Individuals are elected by God.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Manfred]

Hi again Manfred,

I must have missed your comments, sorry. Interesting question and thank you for asking.

Let`s start with God`s word.

`For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name;...` (Isa. 54: 5)
`For the Lord has called you like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, like a youthful wife when you were refused," says you God.` (Isa. 54: 6)

We see here that God refers to Himself as the husband (master) of Israel the wife. This is the nation of Israel. However, the nation as a whole rebelled, God `divorced` them and then finally God opens their eyes when the Lord returns and they receive their Messiah. Thus, the nation of Israel will again be `married,` joined to God.

`Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His WIFE has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7)

The `elect,` are those who obeyed God even through the nation`s rebelliousness - eg. Daniel, Ezekiel etc.

Sorry, but your answer totally ignores the scriptures I posted.

 

[Johan]

Just a few more comments on Rom. 9: 15 when God was speaking to Moses, in relation to `His people, Israel. `(Ex. 33: 12 - 17)

`I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.` (Ex. 33: 19)

When God was telling Abraham of His purpose to make him a great nation, the son was of God`s promise, (Isaac) and was not to be of man`s will, (Ishmael). Then after Isaac married and had two sons, the first-born, Esau should have received the birthright however, he gave it away. Thus, it became - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the lineage.

All God does is in line with His purposes and not according to man - thus `I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious,` etc in line with HIS purposes and not of man`s volition.

I like where you are going with this @Marilyn C
Johann.

 

[Manfred]

Just a few more comments on Rom. 9: 15 when God was speaking to Moses, in relation to `His people, Israel. `(Ex. 33: 12 - 17)

`I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.` (Ex. 33: 19)

When God was telling Abraham of His purpose to make him a great nation, the son was of God`s promise, (Isaac) and was not to be of man`s will, (Ishmael). Then after Isaac married and had two sons, the first-born, Esau should have received the birthright however, he gave it away. Thus, it became - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the lineage.

All God does is in line with His purposes and not according to man - thus `I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious,` etc in line with HIS purposes and not of man`s volition.

So according to you it is only the descendants of Ismael that were not children of the promise?
What about Esau?

Jesus said to Jews who claimed Abraham as their Father:
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Are these children of the promise? The elect? Or did God give them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear? What about Esau and Edom?

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

 

[Marilyn C]

So according to you it is only the descendants of Ismael that were not children of the promise?
What about Esau?

Jesus said to Jews who claimed Abraham as their Father:
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Are these children of the promise? The elect? Or did God give them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear? What about Esau and Edom?

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

`Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9: 27)

 

[Josheb]

`Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9: 27)

And the remnant to which Paul was referring was a remnant that existed in his day, and the time present to his writing the Romans epistle.

Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

Paul was not referring to any remnant in the far, far distant future, but a remnant existing in his day, at the time of his writing the letter to the Romans. Furthermore, Paul had just finished teaching not everyone in Israel was considered by God to be Israel. The Israel that was Israel in God's view was those who live by faith in Christ and NOT nation-state Israel or bloodline Jews who denied Jesus as the Messiah. John identifies those who deny Jesus as coming from God as antichrists. There are no antichrists in the remnant. Before Paul, the gospel record John the Baptist and Jesus confronting the exact same problem of Jews or Israelites wrongly imagining themselves to be Israelites and Jews when in fact they were not.

Matthew 3:7-10
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

John 8:34-45
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus *said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

Genetically, they were descendants of Abraham and, therefore, genetically Hebrews, Jews, and Israelites but that is not how God defines "Israel." Do a study of the word "Israel" in the whole Bible. It will be seen that the minority usage of the word "Israel" is a reference to bloodline. The majority usage is that of the elect by grace and those who live by faith in Jesus. This is explained throughout the New Testament. It's not something the old Old Testament Jew would have understood absent the newer revelation. This failure in correct understanding is evidence by the above scriptures where Jews confront John and Jesus with claims of lineage, and they are bluntly repudiated for doing so.

The remnant to which Paul was referring was a remnant that existed long ago and is no longer alive. They existed "at the present time" when he wrote the letter to the Romans.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Hi again Manfred,

I must have missed your comments, sorry. Interesting question and thank you for asking.

Let`s start with God`s word.

`For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name;...` (Isa. 54: 5)
`For the Lord has called you like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, like a youthful wife when you were refused," says you God.` (Isa. 54: 6)

We see here that God refers to Himself as the husband (master) of Israel the wife. This is the nation of Israel. However, the nation as a whole rebelled, God `divorced` them and then finally God opens their eyes when the Lord returns and they receive their Messiah. Thus, the nation of Israel will again be `married,` joined to God.

`Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His WIFE has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7)

The `elect,` are those who obeyed God even through the nation`s rebelliousness - eg. Daniel, Ezekiel etc.

Do you believe God [chooses a person] for salvation before [they are] born and the universe came into existence? If you have a salvation testimony I think it is safe to presume that you were not born saved but were saved later in life. If that is the case, [is it being suggested] that God did not choose [a person before they] chose Him? Because the Bible says God chose you.

[edits by mod]

 

[Josheb]

nt

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

It is amazing now how my words are being edited without my permission. There is absolutely no way I can stay on a web forum where my words are edited! Good bye!

 

[Josheb]

Bye

 

[TibiasDad]

What do you believe about God?

The God of all eternity has made
Creation in its splendor- Earth and sky
The Sun and Moon, and evening when day fades
And man the crowning Jew’l to magnify.

Above all else, this Holy God is Love
And like no other, for creation’s sake,
Is patient, kind and gives peace from above
To those whose lives are lost within sin’s wake.

Not clinging to what is his rightful place
God’s one and only, bound in human form
Surrendered to the Cross, sin to erase
And called us to his image to conform.

When man, God’s last creation, sinned and fell
God’s love can make us sing that “It is Well!”

D. Allen Jenkins
9/24/23 11:19pm

 

[TibiasDad]

Are you saying that only those who believe first are offered the gift of grace, and that they do not work for it, even though they do deserve it through the excellent choice of faith they made?
They have something to brag about. Being better than those who choose not to believe!

Straw man! Nobody says we deserve it! We don’t, period! Faith is not a work, it is the opposite of a work, for it claims no merit for itself, and admits no merit for the person placing faith! We are not “better than those who choose not to believe!” We are just as bad as they, but we believe that God will do what he claims and seek his mercy!

Doug

 

[Manfred]

`Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9: 27)

Correct. The elect will be saved.

God is immutable. Those elected by God shall be saved.

 

[Manfred]

Straw man! Nobody says we deserve it!

Of course you do.
Making such an excellent choice gives you glory.

No strawman there.

We don’t, period! Faith is not a work, it is the opposite of a work, for it claims no merit for itself, and admits no merit for the person placing faith!

It is the ability you have above those who cannot choose God that you claim comes from self.
That is the boasting part.

We are not “better than those who choose not to believe!”

You are better off and seem to somehow have realised/perceived it in a way those choose not to believe could.
Because of this superior ability you do deserve it no?

We are just as bad as they, but we believe that God will do what he claims and seek his mercy!

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Why do you seek His mercy whilst the Atheist does not? What made you find His mercy whilst the Atheist who dies does not.

Doug

 

[Kermos]

Hi atpollard,

Thank you for those scriptures and I can understand why you believe your view that God chooses some before hand and not others.

However, I do not believe that. I understand that God made Himself known to all men however, some did not give God the glory and thus, became fools and will receive God`s wrath.

`For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest to them, for God has shown it to them.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. professing to be wise, they became fools.` (Rom. 1: 18 - 22)

This is the foundation of what Paul says further in Romans -

Rom. 9 is speaking of the Israelites, (v. 4) especially the children of the promise - Isaac, and not Ishmael, (v. 7) Then further God speaks of choosing Jacob and not Esau, (first-born) for the furtherance of God`s purpose in Israel.

Rom.15 (Ex. 33: 12 - 17) speaks of how Moses wanted God to be gracious to His people and for His presence to God with them. God replies that He "will be gracious to whom He will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." And this is brought out in all Israel`s wandering and experiences as God leads them and protects them. Israel is His purpose and it is for that reason alone that He will show grace or mercy, and not according to man`s will in relation to God`s purpose for the nation of Israel.

Pharoah was given many opportunities to glorify God however, he didn`t and was thus the vessel to show God`s power. (v. 17)

v. 23 the vessels which were prepared beforehand by God to His glory. These are the purposes of God - the nation of Israel and the Body of Christ. The nation of Israel will be restored because it is God`s purpose and the Body of Christ are the `whosoever` will may come, because it is God`s purpose.

Hi Marilyn C,

Did you see the "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God" (Romans 9:20) which @atpollard quoted to you verbatim?

That is "O man", not "nation of Israel, so we can see that the Apostle Paul takes the focus down to persons.

Paul didn't leave it there, he wrote "you", not "you nation of Israel, so the Apostle Paul intensified the focus upon individual persons.

The Apostle clearly stated that, to quote what you wrote, "God chooses some before hand and not others".

Paul refers to both nation and person with respect to God's exclusive choosing in Romans 9.

God is glorified in God’s works! Praise be to Lord and God Jesus Christ!

 

[ReverendRV]

To God I do wonder some things He has done,
He loved only some and gave them His Son,
Who yielded His life an atonement for some,
And opened the life gate that some may go in.


To God be the Glory great things He has done,
So loved He the world that He gave us His Son,
Who yielded His life and atonement for sin,
And opened the life gate that ALL may go in.

What do you believe about God?

I believe both rhymes...