What do you think of God?

[David1701]

Hi Carbon,

Thank you for addressing my thoughts there. So, for clarification do you see that if God enabled some people to glorify Him, then He could have enabled all to do that. Either way it seems to me that is the action of a Dictator who uses his power to have people glorify himself.

[edit by Mod - Reason: Personal attack, violations of Rules 2, 3, 6, and 7]

Ez. 36:26,27 (KJV)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Marilyn C]

If that is your attitude, then you hate God and have no business claiming to be a Christian.

Ez. 36:26,27 (KJV)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hi David,

Wow, that is rather personal there. Obviously, I was presenting a case and not a personal belief. Please ask in future.

Ez. 36: 26 & 27 refers to Israel not the Body of Christ. Context, context. Also, the Body of Christ was NOT revealed in the OT.

 

[Josheb]

Hi David,

Wow, that is rather personal there. Obviously, I was presenting a case and not a personal belief. Please ask in future.

Ez. 36: 26 & 27 refers to Israel not the Body of Christ. Context, context. Also, the Body of Christ was NOT revealed in the OT.

I got it, but maybe next time stick in an emoji to clue folks into the rhetorical nature of the assertion or inquiry .

 

[Marilyn C]

I got it, but maybe next time stick in an emoji to clue folks into the rhetorical nature of the assertion or inquiry .

Thank you for your suggestion, however, I think asking for clarification as a serious question does not have to entail an emoji.

 

[David1701]

Hi David,

Wow, that is rather personal there. Obviously, I was presenting a case and not a personal belief. Please ask in future.

Ez. 36: 26 & 27 refers to Israel not the Body of Christ. Context, context. Also, the Body of Christ was NOT revealed in the OT.

If you present a case, then do not be surprised if people think that it's probably what you believe, especially if your post gives not the slightest indication otherwise; however, I did say "If that is your attitude...", not, "Since that is your attitude...", giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Ez. 36:26,27 refers to the New Covenant. Since saved Gentiles are grafted into Israel, spiritually speaking, your dichotomy ("...Israel not the Body of Christ.") is a false one.

 

[Marilyn C]

If you present a case, then do not be surprised if people think that it's probably what you believe, especially if your post gives not the slightest indication otherwise; however, I did say "If that is your attitude...", not, "Since that is your attitude...", giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Ez. 36:26,27 refers to the New Covenant. Since saved Gentiles are grafted into Israel, spiritually speaking, your dichotomy ("...Israel not the Body of Christ.") is a false one.

Hi David,

probably best to ask the person and NOT venture further `then you hate God and have no business claiming to be a Christian.`

An apology would be well received.

The Gentiles are grafted into the `root` which is holy, nourishing and supports us, and that is CHRIST. (Rom. 11: 16 - 18) Israel is NONE and does NONE of those things.

 

[Marilyn C]

I got it, but maybe next time stick in an emoji to clue folks into the rhetorical nature of the assertion or inquiry .

Hi Josheb,

Glad you have `got it,` and perhaps you can help David to also.

 

[Josheb]

Thank you for your suggestion, however, I think asking for clarification as a serious question

I understand.

does not have to entail an emoji.

I disagree.

Hi Josheb,

Glad you have `got it,` and perhaps you can help David to also.

Sure, but I am inclined to let you speak for yourself since you are generally capable of articulating your positions and clarifying your views when the occasion occurs. I'd also want to avoid Proverbs 26:17 .

 

[Marilyn C]

I understand.

I disagree.

Sure, but I am inclined to let you speak for yourself since you are generally capable of articulating your positions and clarifying your views when the occasion occurs. I'd also want to avoid Proverbs 26:17 .

`He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a dog by the ears.` (Prov. 26: 17)

Good advice there, however, being a Moderator I would say when someone is maligning another`s character, (even with an `if`) that is part of their job description.

And thank you for the feedback concerning my ability to `articulate` and `clarify` my views.

 

[David1701]

Hi David,

probably best to ask the person and NOT venture further `then you hate God and have no business claiming to be a Christian.`

An apology would be well received.

The Gentiles are grafted into the `root` which is holy, nourishing and supports us, and that is CHRIST. (Rom. 11: 16 - 18) Israel is NONE and does NONE of those things.

I don't have time for a proper reply, other than to say that, since you didn't believe what you posted, the "if ... then" statement does not apply to you. My statement was logically correct and there is nothing for which I need to apologise.

We are grafted into the olive tree (Israel). No-one grafts branches into a root! The grafts are in amongst the branches of the native tree.

 

[Marilyn C]

I don't have time for a proper reply, other than to say that, since you didn't believe what you posted, the "if ... then" statement does not apply to you. My statement was logically correct and there is nothing for which I need to apologise.

We are grafted into the olive tree (Israel). No-one grafts branches into a root! The grafts are in amongst the branches of the native tree.

`the ROOT is holy...you...became a partaker of the ROOT and fatness of the olive tree...remember that you do not support the ROOT, but the ROOT supports you.` (Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

 

[Manfred]

Hi David,

Wow, that is rather personal there. Obviously, I was presenting a case and not a personal belief. Please ask in future.

Ez. 36: 26 & 27 refers to Israel not the Body of Christ. Context, context. Also, the Body of Christ was NOT revealed in the OT.

Can you explain how God's choosing Israel (Elect even within Israel) and Him choosing His bride differs and why it differs?

Rom 11:4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

 

[Reformedguy]

I believe God has sons and not bastards (Hebrew 12:8).
I believe God has "wheat" and not "tares", which are to be burned up and consumed in judgment Matthew 13:40).
I believe God adopted and will bring "many sons unto glory" - not a few (Hebrews 2:10).
I believe God offers salvation to "all" without any distinction or "respect of persons" - not "all" without any exception (Acts 10:34-35).
I believe "the hearing ear and the seeing eye" to discern spiritual things are made by God and are given to those "many" whom He has chosen to adopt (Prov. 20:12). These with the "hearing ear and the seeing eye" are the ones that enter that "life gate" in the hymn you quoted.

Well said!

 

[David1701]

`the ROOT is holy...you...became a partaker of the ROOT and fatness of the olive tree...remember that you do not support the ROOT, but the ROOT supports you.` (Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

Yes, and...? That is fully consistent with what I posted.

Meanwhile, do you still claim that branches are grafted into roots?

 

[Josheb]

`He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a dog by the ears.` (Prov. 26: 17)

Good advice there, however, being a Moderator I would say when someone is maligning another`s character, (even with an `if`) that is part of their job description.

That post was reported for its rule violating content and I am confident one of the mods will address it. I'm an admin, but I do not moderate from this avatar. As far as topical discourse goes, I'm just another member of the forum with an interest in learning from others and providing parity where appropriate.

And thank you for the feedback concerning my ability to `articulate` and `clarify` my views.

It's the rules .

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, and...? That is fully consistent with what I posted.

Meanwhile, do you still claim that branches are grafted into roots?

Glad you agree that it is the root that is holy, nourishes & supports us.

The branches are grafted into the Olive tree which is the Lord.

`For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree.` (Rom. 11: 24)

 

[Marilyn C]

Can you explain how God's choosing Israel (Elect even within Israel) and Him choosing His bride differs and why it differs?

Rom 11:4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

The Elect of Israel are those who `did not bow the knee to Baal,` (or other idols). (Isa. 45: 4)

The Elect, the BODY of Christ are those whosoever who accept Jesus as their Saviour. (Col. 3: 12)

The Bride (in time) symbolically, is Israel, (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

The Bride (in eternity) symbolically, is the New Jerusalem, the inheritance of the OT saints. (Heb. 11: 16)

 

[Manfred]

The Elect of Israel are those who `did not bow the knee to Baal,` (or other idols). (Isa. 45: 4)

Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Is it your contention that God did this because of something they did?
Down to this very day? Are they all still bowing their knee to Baal?

The Elect, the BODY of Christ are those whosoever who accept Jesus as their Saviour. (Col. 3: 12)

Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

Nothing in there about anyone choosing God. I see the apposite. I see "God's chosen ones" Not those who choose God and then become God's chosen ones.

The Bride (in time) symbolically, is Israel, (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

The Bride (in eternity) symbolically, is the New Jerusalem, the inheritance of the OT saints. (Heb. 11: 16)

You still have not been able to state how God who is immutable changes how He elects. Whether within Israel or the gentiles.

 

[fastfredy0]

What do you believe about God?

I believe He is beyond my understanding. I believe in the doctrine of analogy (see below for long-winded explanation). I believe that when I see God I will see more clearly my utter uselessness and and depravity. I will be like Isaiah ("Woe is me, for I am ruined, because I am a man of unclean lips dwelling among a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of Hosts.") and Job ("‘Who is this that darkens and obscures counsel [by words] without knowledge?’ Therefore [I now see] I have [rashly] uttered that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 ‘Hear, please, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct [and answer] me.’ 5 “I had heard of You [only] by the hearing of the ear, But now my [spiritual] eye sees You. 6 “Therefore I retract [my words and hate myself] And I repent in dust and ashes.”
Long winded part (doctrine of analogy)
“When we say that God is good, we assume we know what good means from our ordinary experience with fellow human beings. However, God is not only quantitatively better than we are; his goodness is qualitatively different from creaturely goodness. Nevertheless, because we are created in God’s image, we share this predicate with God analogically. Goodness, attributed to God and Sally, is similar but always with greater dissimilarity. At no point is goodness exactly the same for God as it is for Sally. The difference is qualitative, not just quantitative; yet there is enough similarity to communicate the point. God reveals himself as a person, a king, a shepherd, a substitutionary lamb, and so forth. These analogies are not arbitrary (i.e., equivocal), but they are also not exact correspondence (i.e., univocal). Even when we attribute love to God and Mary, love cannot mean exactly the same thing for a self-existent Trinity and a finite person. In every analogy, there is always greater dissimilarity than similarity between God and creatures (see impassibility). Nevertheless, God judges that the analogy is appropriate for his self-revelation. We do not know exactly what divine goodness is like, but since God selects this analogy, there must be a sufficient similarity to our concept of goodness to justify the comparison." (Horton, Michael – The Christian Faith: A Systematic Theology for Pilgrims on the Way)

Thomas Aquinas declared that nothing can properly be predicated of God and man in a univocal sense. To do so and to say, for example, that God and man are both “good” and to intend by “good” the same meaning, is to ignore the difference between the essences of God the Creator (his existence is identical with his essence) and of man the creature (his existence and his essence are two different matters). Aquinas brought together God’s infinity and his knowability by employing the classic philosophical distinction between univocal, equivocal, and analogical language. Univocal language uses the same words in essentially the same sense (I love my Aunt Mary and I love my Aunt Carol). Equivocal language uses the same words in entirely different senses (God loves the world, and I love fried potatoes). Analogical language uses the same words in similar but distinct senses (Christ loves the church, and I love my wife).

 

[Marilyn C]

Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Is it your contention that God did this because of something they did?
Down to this very day? Are they all still bowing their knee to Baal?

Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

Nothing in there about anyone choosing God. I see the apposite. I see "God's chosen ones" Not those who choose God and then become God's chosen ones.

You still have not been able to state how God who is immutable changes how He elects. Whether within Israel or the gentiles.

Hi Manfred,

God `divorced `Israel (for a time) for they were unfaithful. (Jer. 3: 8 & 14) Even today this is so for most of the people of Israel.

Those who believe in Jesus are the chosen ones in the Body of Christ. (Rom. 10: 4)

Israel, God`s elect - because of God`s purpose for a ruler over the nations. God established it by His promise to Abraham, (son of promise and not of man`s will) and then through Isaac, Jacob, (because the first-born Esau rejected his birth right). The lineage is because of God`s promise.

The Old Testament saints however, receive a different inheritance because they believe God for the promise of the heavenly city. (Heb. 11: 16)

The Body of Christ, God`s elect - because of the purpose for rulership with Christ on His own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21 Eph. 1: 20 - 23)