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Validity of Apostolic Succession, and RCC as the One Holy Catholic Church

Arch Stanton

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Rule 3.2 https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/ccam-forums-rules-guidelines.2533/#post-127640 prohibits promoting heretical views, specifically mentioning denying the authority of Scripture.

MOD NOTE: The following posts in this thread were migrated here because they distract from the originating thread in the Apologetics forum, titled, “Early Church Fathers in Support of Sola Scriptura” (here).
Not by itself, but by the whole council of God the principle stands.
not according to scripture... the bible is not the 'pillar of truth'; the 'wisdom of God' is not made known through the bible

where are they made known ?

MOD HAT: Read Rule 3.2 Heretical claims have been permitted, for the sake of argument and to present opportunity for opposition to disprove. However, they must be done for the sake of argument, backed up with scripture references within the posts —not posted as promoting those heretical claims. Do not teach heresy on this site.
 
not according to scripture... the bible is not the 'pillar of truth'; the 'wisdom of God' is not made known through the bible

where are they made known ?
what are you talking about? scripture plainly states what I said... I am not promoting heresy since it is in the bible @makesends
 
what are you talking about? scripture plainly states what I said... I am not promoting heresy since it is in the bible @makesends
Demonstrate it, and we will go from there. Meanwhile I am working on an answer.
 
Demonstrate it, and we will go from there. Meanwhile I am working on an answer.
1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF [THE] TRUTH

Eph 3:10 so that the manifold WISDOM of God might now be made known THROUGH the CHURCH to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

After all, the Church came first and gave us the Bible.
 
Scriptures alone were inspired and supeme authority in all doctrines and practices
What is the constitution without an authority to interpret it?

Constitution/Judicial Branch
 
1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF [THE] TRUTH

Eph 3:10 so that the manifold WISDOM of God might now be made known THROUGH the CHURCH to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

After all, the Church came first and gave us the Bible.
The NT which deals with the church, is the work of the apostles, those Christ appointed and equipped for that work, and who were eyewitnesses of his resurrection (Acts 1:21-22) of laying the doctrinal foundation of HIS church, with himself as the chief cornerstone (Eph 2:20).

The word "church" is translated from the Greek ekklésia. It means properly "called out". Specifically of Christ, the community of the Redeemed of Christ whether being on earth or in heaven or both. It is used of people, not a location, structure, organization etc. Christ's church is not and never was the RCC or any other denomination. So, your statement is false.
 
The NT which deals with the church, is the work of the apostles, those Christ appointed and equipped for that work, and who were eyewitnesses of his resurrection (Acts 1:21-22) of laying the doctrinal foundation of HIS church, with himself as the chief cornerstone (Eph 2:20).

The word "church" is translated from the Greek ekklésia. It means properly "called out". Specifically of Christ, the community of the Redeemed of Christ whether being on earth or in heaven or both. It is used of people, not a location, structure, organization etc. Christ's church is not and never was the RCC or any other denomination. So, your statement is false.
You have not proven that the early Church wasn't Catholic. We are not a denomination. The 'called out' were the early Church Christians with Peter as the leader... the universal/catholic church
 
not according to scripture... the bible is not the 'pillar of truth'; the 'wisdom of God' is not made known through the bible

where are they made known ?
This will be far from a complete treatise. I should be doing other things.

1) Specifically, the Bible does indeed say that the church (which apparently you take to mean, 'The Holy Catholic Church') is the pillar and ground of truth. You, apparently, would even subject the Scriptures to the authority of that church. No church has authority over the Scriptures. Your argument against the one verse posted (2 Timothy 3:16 LSB "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,") besides failing to back up your claim with specific passages, denies the rest of Scripture.

2) You even ignore the obvious reasoning behind the 2 Timothy reference. If Scripture is God's word, and God is infinitely above all creation in every way —in being, and morally, in knowledge, wisdom and power, since he himself is the definition and source of these things— then HOW is the church being entrusted with the truth, and making known the wisdom of God, of any authority over the word of God? That we need defend the truth and promote the truth and steer others towards the truth, with teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness goes without saying, but ALL those things are to be done according to the truth—not according to our human understanding as itself the authority. We get our truth and the 'wisdom of God' from God, by the word of God alone, and not of ourselves nor of our tradition nor of our superiors.

3) That the church is entrusted to teach doctrine does not make the church the source and governance of doctrine. Scripture governs doctrine. Valid Doctrine is according to scripture, derived from scripture and modified or corrected according to scripture—not according to man's notions.

4) Apostolic tradition is past, not present. There are no apostles given the responsibility of writing scripture. God no longer gives plenary verbal inspiration of anything man says. No man speaks for God.

5) For starters: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe" —1 Thessalonians 2:13 Do you see no hierarchy as to authority and capability, and implied responsibility here?

Also: "...scripture cannot be broken..." —John 10:35. But the RCC 'breaks' it all the time.

Also: "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." —Luke 16:17 Shows that the word of God is of a substance beyond mere creation, which in turn implies that the authority of scripture is God, and not the church, which God uses for the purposes of his word— the church as pillar and ground of truth, not as authority over truth itself.

We could go on and on in this vein. Both Old Testament and new are replete with statements that the word of God itself is the authority, and that man has no authority over it.

6) I could go on and on about the Bible's remonstrances against 'the traditions of men'. Yes, I'm implying something, there.

7) But the point in the OP is that the early church fathers —Roman Catholic or not— posit plenary verbal inspiration and, in particular, 'sola scriptura'.
 
You have not proven that the early Church wasn't Catholic. We are not a denomination. The 'called out' were the early Church Christians with Peter as the leader... the universal/catholic church
Demonstrate the apostolic succession. "You have not proven that the early Church [was] Catholic".
 
1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF [THE] TRUTH

Eph 3:10 so that the manifold WISDOM of God might now be made known THROUGH the CHURCH to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

After all, the Church came first and gave us the Bible.
1 Tim 3:15, as I mentioned elsewhere, does indeed say what you quoted; Paul, there, speaks from the assumption that the church is "the household of God" and, further, the behavior he enjoins Timothy to hold to has to do with the fact that it is the "The church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of [the] truth." In other words, this passage speaks to the responsibility of the church, and not of itself the authority of the church, as though the truth itself depends on it. —It doesn't. The truth is the truth, and will be the truth forever, and not because the church says it.

Eph 3:10 "so that the manifold WISDOM of God might now be made known THROUGH the CHURCH to the principalities and authorities in the heavens." Notice that this, "manifold wisdom of God", is to BE made known to the principalities and authorities in the heavens. Not only is this not about the RCC producing truth for the denizens of the earth, but it is about God USING THE CHURCH as evidence of his manifold wisdom as demonstrated to spiritual entities. This is not the responsibility of the church, but God's doing. Contextually, we do indeed have responsibilities (and gracious privileges) toward what is termed "mystery". This mystery is referred to in many places, —several specifically by the word, 'mystery' (Eph 3:3-6 has already been mentioned above; Colossians 1:25-27; Eph 1:9-10; Rom 11:25)— and others including 1 Peter 1:10-12 (notice the reference in vs 12 to angels wishing to understand). I'm not saying the church has no responsibility here. I'm saying that Eph 3:10 does not speak to the authority of the church. The church, the undoing of sin, and the grace of God is a mystery to the principalities and heavenly authorities.

After all, the word of God comes from God, and not from the church.
 
This will be far from a complete treatise. I should be doing other things.
?
1) Specifically, the Bible does indeed say that the church (which apparently you take to mean, 'The Holy Catholic Church') is the pillar and ground of truth. You, apparently, would even subject the Scriptures to the authority of that church. No church has authority over the Scriptures.
The Catholic Church established 2,000 years ago by Christ has the only authority to interpret scripture.
Your argument against the one verse posted (2 Timothy 3:16 LSB "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,") besides failing to back up your claim with specific passages, denies the rest of Scripture.
It does not... the NT was written by Catholics and the Bible was bound by the Catholic Church....all 73 books
2) You even ignore the obvious reasoning behind the 2 Timothy reference. If Scripture is God's word
God's 'written' word.
That we need defend the truth and promote the truth and steer others towards the truth, with teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness goes without saying
How does one teach truth if there are multiple denominations?
3) That the church is entrusted to teach doctrine does not make the church the source and governance of doctrine. Scripture governs doctrine. Valid Doctrine is according to scripture, derived from scripture and modified or corrected according to scripture—not according to man's notions.
Every ecclesial community has 'man's notions'.
4) Apostolic tradition is past, not present.'
False... the Church established by Christ has no expiration date. Do you need scriptures for that?
 
5) For starters: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe" —1 Thessalonians 2:13 Do you see no hierarchy as to authority and capability, and implied responsibility here?
Hearing it 'from us' is hearing His Church... He who hears you, hears Me
We could go on and on in this vein.
Nothing has been proven.
I could go on and on about the Bible's remonstrances against 'the traditions of men'. Yes, I'm implying something, there.
and you would be wrong as scripture does not deny all traditions
But the point in the OP is that the early church fathers —Roman Catholic or not— posit plenary verbal inspiration and, in particular, 'sola scriptura'.
The ECF's were Catholic and as Catholics they did not believe in scripture alone.
 
Hearing it 'from us' is hearing His Church... He who hears you, hears Me
Who named the Catholic church as His church? Who granted it that authority?
and you would be wrong as scripture does not deny all traditions
Nor does it accept or teach all traditions. The traditions of men, it does deny. What are the traditions of men? Those traditions that are not found in the Bible.

A few things that are traditions of the Catholic religion that are not found in the Bible concerning Christ's church:
  • Prayer to saints.
  • A particular religion determining sainthood
  • The idea of the term saints as used in the Scripture to all believers to mean those designated as worthy of saint hood by their good deeds or visions they have seen
  • That salvation is conferred to a person by a religious priest
  • Purgatory
  • Manmade idols of Jesus or Mary or other persons
  • Access to Jesus through prayer to Mary
  • A single institution acting as the mediator between man and Jesus
  • An institution and their rituals as the means of grace
 
It does not... the NT was written by Catholics and the Bible was bound by the Catholic Church....all 73 books
There were no Catholics when the writings of the NT were written. The Catholic church as a religion and institution did not exist then. There was a universal church and there is a universal church to this day. but it is invisible and contains all those Christ has called to himself. And its teachings, doctrines, traditions, are fully contained within the scriptures. Sola scriptura. The author of the NT (and the OT) is the Holy Spirit---God himself---and his appointed men were the instruments. So, your claim of the Catholic religion being Christ's church is taking Christ's authority and is being the head of his church into its own hands and out of Jesus' hands.
 
Who named the Catholic church as His church?
Christ when He established the only universal/catholic church 2,000 years ago.
Who granted it that authority?
Christ when He said 'He who hears you, hears Me', keys to the kingdom; whose sins you forgive...; whatever you bind...; the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail; the Advocate will be with you always, the spirit of truth; make disciples of all nations...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you...I am with you always, until the end of the age.
Nor does it accept or teach all traditions. The traditions of men, it does deny. What are the traditions of men? Those traditions that are not found in the Bible.
Where does scripture tell you that?
A few things that are traditions of the Catholic religion that are not found in the Bible concerning Christ's church:
  • Prayer to saints.
  • A particular religion determining sainthood
  • The idea of the term saints as used in the Scripture to all believers to mean those designated as worthy of saint hood by their good deeds or visions they have seen
  • That salvation is conferred to a person by a religious priest
  • Purgatory
  • Manmade idols of Jesus or Mary or other persons
  • Access to Jesus through prayer to Mary
  • A single institution acting as the mediator between man and Jesus
  • An institution and their rituals as the means of grace
A cursory look shows me that you are following a preconceived notion -- where does scripture tell you that the Bible is an all-inclusive manual?
 
There were no Catholics when the writings of the NT were written.
Tell that to Peter, John, James, Paul, Luke, Matthew...
The Catholic church as a religion and institution did not exist then.
Historically, that is false... it was the only Church in the first century!
There was a universal church and there is a universal church to this day. but it is invisible and contains all those Christ has called to himself.
That is a new idea brought forth during the protestant revolt.
 
makesends said:
5) For starters: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe" —1 Thessalonians 2:13 Do you see no hierarchy as to authority and capability, and implied responsibility here?
Hearing it 'from us' is hearing His Church... He who hears you, hears Me
That's not what it says. (Funny you should put it that way.) What you should have said is it is hearing God's word from his church. There's a huge difference between what it says and what you sloughed meanings to say.
and you would be wrong as scripture does not deny all traditions
I didn't say it denies all traditions. It does deny the habit of traditions usurping the word of God.
The ECF's were Catholic and as Catholics they did not believe in scripture alone.
That's not what the ECF quotes in the OP demonstrate.

I've noticed, by the way, you haven't answered yet with a list of apostolic succession that demonstrates RCC authority.
 
?

The Catholic Church established 2,000 years ago by Christ has the only authority to interpret scripture.
Show me the Apostolic succession list.
It does not... the NT was written by Catholics and the Bible was bound by the Catholic Church....all 73 books
I.e. the apostles were RCC? Show me the list.
God's 'written' word.
And???
How does one teach truth if there are multiple denominations?
By holding to the authority of the Scriptures.
Every ecclesial community has 'man's notions'.
So does the RCC, as history richly demonstrates. Red Herring
False... the Church established by Christ has no expiration date. Do you need scriptures for that?
Strawman argument. Show me the apostolic succession list.
 
I didn't say it denies all traditions. It does deny the habit of traditions usurping the word of God.
according to one's own personal, fallible, interpretations of scripture
That's not what the ECF quotes in the OP demonstrate.
cherry picked but the next poster had it right 'early acts'... do you need me to supply ECF's that speak of tradition as well?
I've noticed, by the way, you haven't answered yet with a list of apostolic succession that demonstrates RCC authority.
-the next bishop in line was Matthias
-laying on of hands to the next generation


N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, “[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it” (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

Irenaeus

“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about” (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, Martyr, etc.
 
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