Understanding Who and What is the Babylon of Revelation.

[Hobie]

Revelation 17:1-5
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

The physical city of Babylon was originally built by Nimrod after the flood and was by the Euphrates River. The name Babylon came from the Tower of Babel that was constructed there and means "the portal of the gods", or "gate of the gods". Jesus is the spiritual husband of the church therefore if a church unites with or receives favors of one who is not her husband, she commits spiritual adultery.

Here we see Babylon is called the “great whore” who committed fornication or spiritual adultery. The “many waters” she sits on are the countless people she has deceived and “made drunk” with her doctrines. The “kings of the earth” represent civil powers or the power of the state. When churches lose the power of the gospel to transform hearts and lives they turn to the power of the state to support their doctrines and thus they commit spiritual fornication.

We see this repeated in many verses in Revelation...
Revelation 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

The name Babylon or "the portal of the gods" in a sense portrays a means of access to the gods that is contrary to Gods plan. Access is granted through the system and not by faith in Jesus Christ. It is a system where salvation by works replaces salvation by faith. Numerous verses in the book of Revelation warn against Babylon, and admonish Gods people to come out of Babylon.
Revelation 18:1-5
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


The unclean and hateful birds reference the counterfeit spirit of demons that would power the system and lead people to believe that they are working with the power of God when it is a deception masquerading as truth. In verse 4, John hears "another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." This warns Gods people not to become entangled with this "Mystery Babylon" so they are not "partakers of her sins" or her abominations to avoid the "her plagues".

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.
1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

 

[Josheb]

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.
1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

No.

First, Babylon was not just a city; it was also a nation. The city of Babylon was the capital of the nation of Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar was not the king of only a city; whe was the king of a huge nation and all the territory it the king, the city, and the nation governed.

Second, the word "Babylon" is found six times in the book of Revelation. The first mention is,

Revelation 14:6-8
And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters." And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality."

This passage explicitly states Babylon is fallen. When a city "fell" that meant it had been conquered (or had been destroyed by war or natural or divine disaster). The language is past tense but since this is found in a book of prophecy the past tense language could indicate a future milestone passing in the chronology of the larger prophecy. That chronology is complicated by the fact the book of Revelation explicitly states some of its content had already passed and some of its content was happening at the time the revelation of Revelation was given to John (Rev. 1:19). The historical Babylon had fallen, and it had ceased to exist as a city/nation that made everyone drink of her immorality. That had happened centuries before Revelation was revealed. Because of the lapse of time the chapter 14 mention is not likely to literally be the historical pagan Babylon because that city/nation was gone and not having influence in the first century Church (Revelation was written to the bondservants of Christ (Rev. 1:1).

So, if not the ancient city/nation then who? If not the actual ancient now-destroyed city/nation, then we necessarily know the use of the term "Babylon" is figurative, metaphorical or symbolic. Chapter 14 does not explain the mention. The only qualifier provided in that text is that city/nation's immoral influence on all other nations. Keep in mind two things: at the time of Babylon's Old Testament existence and at the time of Revelation's writing "all the nations" did not mean all the globe or all the planet Earth. It meant all the nations known to exist at that time. No one in the first century had a clue the Americas, or the Caribbean or the Pacific islands existed. If we're going to try to identify the identity of this Rev. 14 "Babylon" then the only clue we have is it purveyance of immorality, and the first place we look is other scripture because scripture is the first best place form understanding scripture. What other city or nation does the Bible compare to Babylon and what other city/nation is reported in scripture to be immoral and influence the other nations immorally?

 

[Josheb]

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.
1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

The next mention of Babylon in Revelation is,

Revelation 16:17-21
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done." And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

Here it appears Babylon is a city but that is not what the passage states explicitly. The inference is that the Babylon mentioned is a city because the word "great" is associated with both an unnamed city and Babylon. That is a reasonable inference given what is stated. However, as far as the letter of the words goes, the city divided in three could be the impetus for the falling of other nations and Babylon suffering God's wrath. Chronologically speaking there's no scriptural record of ancient Babylon being split three ways so we have another qualifier. What city was split three ways, and is there other scripture informing us of this?

This is important because the claim of the op is that Babylon is spiritual. If so, then what spiritual was divided three ways?

 

[Josheb]

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.

1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

The next place we find Babylon mentioned in Revelation is,

Revelation 17:1-5
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.”

Here we have an additional set of qualifiers or information helpful in figuring out the identity of Babylon. This Babylon is a woman, not a city or nation or perhaps the woman is figurative, a symbol of a city or nation. Whichever it is the woman has "Babylon" written on her forehead. She is Babylon. This Babylon is a mother of prostitutes. This Babylon is a mother of the earth's abominations. What are the earth's abominations? What city/nations does scripture describe as a mother of prostitutes? Note also this woman who is Babylon is wearing purple and scarlet, and is adorned with gold, jewels, and pearls. What other scripture describes anyone, any city, any nation thusly attired?

Let's list the accumulated qualifiers:

• Immoral.
• Made other nations drink of the passion of her immorality.
• Possibly, probably, a city, and one that was great.
• Divided three ways.
• Progenitor of prostitutes.
• Progenitor of abominations.
• Wears purple and scarlet and is adorned with gold, jewels and pearls.

What does scripture elsewhere report meets these qualifications? How would the first century readers of Revelation have understood what was stated? Remember: the book of Revelation was written to the bondservants of Christ then living in the first century, and it was written to them because its events were going to happen quickly (or soon) because the time was near. Furthermore, some of its events had already happened - not everything in Revelation was in their future. Some of Revelation had already happened and some of it was happening at the time the revelation of Revelation was given - not everything in the book was in the future (theirs or anyone else's). How would the first century reader have understood the identity of Babylon given qualifiers of that bullet list?

 

[Josheb]

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.

1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

The last three mentions of Babylon are found in Revelation chapter 18.

Revelation 18:1-10, 21
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. "For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality." I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back even as she has paid and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as a queen and am not a widow, and will never see mourning.' For this reason, in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' ...........Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

This passage unequivocally states Babylon is a city. "Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the great city." Reading this passage we can add to our bullet list,

• Immoral.
• Made other nations drink of the passion of her immorality.
• Possibly, probably, a city, and one that was great.
• Divided three ways.
• Progenitor of prostitutes.
• Progenitor of abominations.
• Wears purple and scarlet and is adorned with gold, jewels and pearls.
• Dwelling place of demons.
• Prison of every unclean spirit.
• prison of every unclean and hateful bird (not just spirit).
• Kings share in her adultery (her adultery, not their own or others' adultery).
• Other become because and do so because of her profoundly abundant sensuality (rude and arrogant wanton luxury).
• God's people are called to come out of her.
• She glorified herself.
• She considers herself a queen.
• She does not consider herself a widow (someone whose husband has died).
• She does not morn her iniquity or loss.
• She will be thrown into violent destruction that included natural disaster, pestilence, burning, death, and Judgment (and war is implied due to the use of Babylon as the reference).

So what does scripture elsewhere report meets these qualifications? How would the original writer and his original readers have understood what was written?

 

[Josheb]

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.

1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

Two last observations before moving on to the 1 Peter 5 mention: At least of the verses in these passages are direct quotes from the Old Testament.

First, Second, the Revelation 17 reference of the women wearing purple and scarlet is taken from Exodus chapters 25 through 39 where the accouterments of the tabernacle and attire of the priests is described. That content is too lengthy to post in a single post but here is one representative passage from chapter ,

Exodus 28:1-22
Then bring near to yourself Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the sons of Israel, to minister as priest to Me—Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons. You shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty....... These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece and an ephod and a robe and a tunic of checkered work, a turban and a sash, and they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister as priest to Me. They shall take the gold and the blue and the purple and the scarlet material and the fine linen. They shall also make the ephod of gold, of blue and purple and scarlet material and fine twisted linen, the work of the skillful workman. It shall have two shoulder pieces joined to its two ends, that it may be joined. The skillfully woven band, which is on it, shall be like its workmanship, of the same material: of gold, of blue and purple and scarlet material and fine twisted linen. You shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel........... You shall make a breastpiece of judgment, the work of a skillful workman; like the work of the ephod you shall make it: of gold, of blue and purple and scarlet material and fine twisted linen you shall make it. It shall be square and folded double, a span in length and a span in width. You shall mount on it four rows of stones; the first row shall be a row of ruby, topaz and emerald; and the second row a turquoise, a sapphire and a diamond; and the third row a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; and the fourth row a beryl and an onyx and a jasper; they shall be set in gold filigree. "The stones shall be according to the names of the sons of Israel: twelve, according to their names; they shall be like the engravings of a seal, each according to his name for the twelve tribes. "You shall make on the breastpiece chains of twisted cordage work in pure gold.


The first century reader would have recognized the purple and scarlet as references to the Levitical priesthood. The names on the jewels they wore bore the names of the twelve tribes on them. The jewel encrusted breast-piece made of the purple and scarlet was that of judgment. Who was judged by the Levitical priesthood? Israel. They served as mediators of God judgment.


Second, the Revelation 18:7 reference is taken directly from Isaiah,

Isaiah 47:1-9
"Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans! For you shall no longer be called tender and delicate. Take the millstones and grind meal. Remove your veil, strip off the skirt, uncover the leg, cross the rivers. Your nakedness will be uncovered, your shame also will be exposed; I will take vengeance and will not spare a man. Our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel. Sit silently, and go into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans, for you will no longer be called the queen of kingdoms. I was angry with My people, I profaned My heritage and gave them into your hand. You did not show mercy to them, on the aged you made your yoke very heavy. Yet you said, 'I will be a queen forever.' These things you did not consider nor remember the outcome of them. Now, then, hear this, you sensual one, who dwells securely, who says in your heart, 'I am, and there is no one besides me. I will not sit as a widow, nor know loss of children.' But these two things will come on you suddenly in one day: Loss of children and widowhood. They will come on you in full measure In spite of your many sorceries, In spite of the great power of your spells...."

The whole chapter is like this. The larger narrative is several chapters long. The entire prophecy of Isaiah is 1) spoken to and about the house of Israel and the house of Jacob. Isaiah was not written to the Babylonians. Who, then is the "virgin daughter of Babylon"? Notice chapter 47 and the larger narrative is couched in the coming of the Redeemer, the Holy One of if Israel. In other words, the judgement descried in Isaiah follows the coming of the Redeemer.


Ezekiel 16:17
You also took your beautiful jewels made of My gold and of My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images that you might play the harlot with them.


They took God's gold and silver and played the harlot. Both the Law and the prophets tell us the Babylon of Revelation was Israel and its city of Jerusalem.


Notice three things: 1) I did not use anything but scripture, 2) I did not add one word to or subtract from any scripture, 3) I did not select the various scriptures based on anything but words already existent, points already explicitly stated in the Revelation texts, and 4) not once did I appeal to any doctrinal point of view. We do not need man-made eschatologies to interpret Revelation's Babylon for us. Everything anyone needs is already provided in scripture. Those relying on man-made eschatologies are subordinating scripture to man, not the other way around. The whole point of Revelation is revelation - the revealing of things so they would be understood by the ones first given the revealing revelation of Revelation!

 

[Josheb]

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.

1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

Since the entirety of scripture indicates the Babylon of Revelation is the city Jerusalem, the nation of Israel, and the abomination the Levitical priesthood had become we don't need speculation about Peter's comment. The Church first came out of Israel and Jerusalem. Jesus was crucified just outside of Jerusalem on Golgotha immediately following his entrance into Jerusalem, his cleaning out the temple, his indictment of the profiteering Jewish leaders and their murderous conspiracy to kill the Son of God.

Peter was writing to the Church that was at Jerusalem. Paul wrote letters to the churches at Thessalonica, Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, and Rome. Both men had left Jerusalem after visiting with and being commissioned by the council in Jerusalem (Acts 15). Jerusalem was "home base" for the Church as a whole and the place from which Peter had been sent in his ministry to those of the circumcision (Acts 10:45; Gal. 2:8). Peter was writing to the Church at Jerusalem and Jerusalem was a thoroughly corrupt city led by antichrist murderers whose house had been left to them desolate by the Son of God himself. The Son had told them the judgment was coming upon them and they would be held accountable for his blood and the blood of all the murdered prophets.

Matthew 27:25 KJV
And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”

Peter and the apostles were there when those words were said. They knew what was pending, and that is exactly what happened.





@Hobie, You're giving us SDA eschatology, not scripture. If the op had openly and voluntarily stated this is what you've learned in the SDA then we could all express some appreciation for the information - even if we disagree with the denominational/doctrinal content. The forthcomingness could be appreciated. To silently, implicitly present this as a sectarian-free and doctrine-free explanation of Revelation's Babylon is disingenuous.

As far as the claims, "Jesus is the spiritual husband of the church therefore if a church unites with or receives favors of one who is not her husband, she commits spiritual adultery. Here we see Babylon is called the “great whore” who committed fornication or spiritual adultery," and "The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it," go those conclusions are assumptions. None of it was proven. Most of it contradicts scripture or, at a minimum, fails to account for the common ground shared by physical adultery, religious adultery and the spiritual aspects of idolatry. To be idolatrous is not only spiritual. It has aspects that are fleshly and spiritual, temporal and eternal, earthly and heavenly. Over-spiritualization is a bad thing on this occasion. It is also unnecessary. So too is over-allegorizing the text. Sometimes scripture does treat scripture allegorically (figuratively, metaphorically, symbolically, etc.) but not a single verse provided in this op states Babylon is spiritual. That is an assumption.

 

[EarlyActs]

Revelation 17:1-5
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

The physical city of Babylon was originally built by Nimrod after the flood and was by the Euphrates River. The name Babylon came from the Tower of Babel that was constructed there and means "the portal of the gods", or "gate of the gods". Jesus is the spiritual husband of the church therefore if a church unites with or receives favors of one who is not her husband, she commits spiritual adultery.

Here we see Babylon is called the “great whore” who committed fornication or spiritual adultery. The “many waters” she sits on are the countless people she has deceived and “made drunk” with her doctrines. The “kings of the earth” represent civil powers or the power of the state. When churches lose the power of the gospel to transform hearts and lives they turn to the power of the state to support their doctrines and thus they commit spiritual fornication.

We see this repeated in many verses in Revelation...
Revelation 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

The name Babylon or "the portal of the gods" in a sense portrays a means of access to the gods that is contrary to Gods plan. Access is granted through the system and not by faith in Jesus Christ. It is a system where salvation by works replaces salvation by faith. Numerous verses in the book of Revelation warn against Babylon, and admonish Gods people to come out of Babylon.
Revelation 18:1-5
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


The unclean and hateful birds reference the counterfeit spirit of demons that would power the system and lead people to believe that they are working with the power of God when it is a deception masquerading as truth. In verse 4, John hears "another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." This warns Gods people not to become entangled with this "Mystery Babylon" so they are not "partakers of her sins" or her abominations to avoid the "her plagues".

The Babylon is not the physical Babylon but spiritual Babylon as we see even Peter used it.
1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter wrote these words when literal Babylon no longer existed. The woman that rides the beast also has all the identifying features as we see, "the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The great prostitute is obviously not a good woman and has issues that go beyond just a few mistakes. Just as ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will end-time Babylon rely on the support of the masses to enforce her plans. So must discern and understand who and what is this spiritual Babylon?

Every prophecy expert thinks they have the answer and no one has ever been there/done that before.

One mistake you are making is leaving the scene too early. This material must be assessed in terms of 1st century reference and understanding. Jackpot--you just picked the most difficult piece to work on. The 1st page of the thing tells you these things were about to happen shortly.

When you have shown that you have looked at the immediate generation, I'll have a look.

Clue: it was the city where the Lord was crucified. Not too many choices left.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Every prophecy expert thinks they have the answer and no one has ever been there/done that before.

One mistake you are making is leaving the scene too early. This material must be assessed in terms of 1st century reference and understanding. Jackpot--you just picked the most difficult piece to work on. The 1st page of the thing tells you these things were about to happen shortly.

When you have shown that you have looked at the immediate generation, I'll have a look.

Clue: it was the city where the Lord was crucified. Not too many choices left.

Both clueless about what the Bible actually means by "Babylon". And both with closed ears that don't want to know the truth.

 

[Josheb]

Both clueless about what the Bible actually means by "Babylon". And both with closed ears that don't want to know the truth.

Rank ad hominem

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Rank ad hominem

Truth hurts. Demonstrate a different mind set. Prove it wrong.

 

[Josheb]

Truth hurts. Demonstrate a different mind set.

There is no truth in rank ad hominem.

Prove it wrong.

Onus is on you so there' be not toleration of shifting onuses. That is just as fallacious as ad hominem. You posted,

Both clueless about what the Bible actually means by "Babylon". And both with closed ears that don't want to know the truth.

Who, specifically, is "clueless"? Prove it.
Who, specifically, has "closed ears"? Prove it.
Who, specifically, does not want to know the truth? Prove it.

And what, exactly, does Post 9 (or 11) contribute to the discussion of this op?

Until that is done there is nothing for me or anyone else to prove.

Rank ad hominem

Truth hurts. Demonstrate a different mind set. Prove it wrong.

Ad Hominem

Post 9 is self-indicting because it says absolutely NOTHING about the argument(s) asserted.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

There is no truth in rank ad hominem.

Onus is on you so there' be not toleration of shifting onuses. That is just as fallacious as ad hominem. You posted,

Who, specifically, is "clueless"? Prove it.
Who, specifically, has "closed ears"? Prove it.
Who, specifically, does not want to know the truth? Prove it.

And what, exactly, does Post 9 (or 11) contribute to the discussion of this op?

Until that is done there is nothing for me or anyone else to prove.

Ad Hominem

Post 9 is self-indicting because it says absolutely NOTHING about the argument(s) asserted.

Continual posts like this just prove you won't accept anything even if it hits your backside. Waste of time.

 

[Josheb]

Continual posts like this just prove you won't accept anything even if it hits your backside. Waste of time.

I notice the matter of ad hominem was not addressed, and neither was the attempt to shift away the onus from Post 9's denigrating comments. Post 9 says the problem is in others, does so absent any evidence (or proof) to that effect and contributes nothing to the op but ridicule and mocking, derisive attacks on others blind to the abuses contained therein. The first eight posts are op-relevant and the first seven do not call into question anyone cognitive or volitional faculties. In contrast, that's all Post 9 does! Without any evidence whatsoever, even when asked. Matthew 7:5

I'll stand Posts 1-7 up against Post 9 any day.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Continual and constant waste of time.

 

[Hobie]

The last three mentions of Babylon are found in Revelation chapter 18.

Revelation 18:1-10, 21
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. "For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality." I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back even as she has paid and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as a queen and am not a widow, and will never see mourning.' For this reason, in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' ...........Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

This passage unequivocally states Babylon is a city. "Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the great city." Reading this passage we can add to our bullet list,

• Immoral.
• Made other nations drink of the passion of her immorality.
• Possibly, probably, a city, and one that was great.
• Divided three ways.
• Progenitor of prostitutes.
• Progenitor of abominations.
• Wears purple and scarlet and is adorned with gold, jewels and pearls.
• Dwelling place of demons.
• Prison of every unclean spirit.
• prison of every unclean and hateful bird (not just spirit).
• Kings share in her adultery (her adultery, not their own or others' adultery).
• Other become because and do so because of her profoundly abundant sensuality (rude and arrogant wanton luxury).
• God's people are called to come out of her.
• She glorified herself.
• She considers herself a queen.
• She does not consider herself a widow (someone whose husband has died).
• She does not morn her iniquity or loss.
• She will be thrown into violent destruction that included natural disaster, pestilence, burning, death, and Judgment (and war is implied due to the use of Babylon as the reference).

So what does scripture elsewhere report meets these qualifications? How would the original writer and his original readers have understood what was written?

Yes, and can you find that city today, of course not. It was the pagan religious system with its idolatrous worship that spread all the way to the Roman Empire and reconstituted in Papal Rome.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, and can you find that city today, of course not.

I can, and you should not have assumed otherwise.

It was the pagan religious system with its idolatrous worship that spread all the way to the Roman Empire and reconstituted in Papal Rome.

Nonsense. There was no "pagan religious system" in ancient times. Ancient paganism was diverse, fragmented, divided, and competitive (much like what modern futurism has done to the Church today).

 

[Hobie]

I can, and you should not have assumed otherwise.

Nonsense. There was no "pagan religious system" in ancient times. Ancient paganism was diverse, fragmented, divided, and competitive (much like what modern futurism has done to the Church today).

Notice it 'was' a city... https://www.britannica.com/place/Babylon-ancient-city-Mesopotamia-Asia

 

[Josheb]

Notice it 'was' a city... https://www.britannica.com/place/Babylon-ancient-city-Mesopotamia-Asia

Notice scripture's mentions of any city is never just about the brick buildings of the city, but always about its character.

• Babylon
• Sodom
• Gomorrah
• Jericho
• Tyre
• Jerusalem

As far as God's word goes, Babylon was the epitome of sin and an archetype thereof. NOTHING in prophecy concerning Babylon is about the bricks. Yes, God did physically destroy those cities, but their destruction was intended as a demonstration of His might, an act of purification, judgment, and might. Pride kills. It precedes destruction. God can make rocks praise Jesus (Lk. 19:40). It's the people that are the problem.

 

[Hobie]

Notice scripture's mentions of any city is never just about the brick buildings of the city, but always about its character.

• Babylon
• Sodom
• Gomorrah
• Jericho
• Tyre
• Jerusalem

As far as God's word goes, Babylon was the epitome of sin and an archetype thereof. NOTHING in prophecy concerning Babylon is about the bricks. Yes, God did physically destroy those cities, but their destruction was intended as a demonstration of His might, an act of purification, judgment, and might. Pride kills. It precedes destruction. God can make rocks praise Jesus (Lk. 19:40). It's the people that are the problem.

It began at the tower of Babel and spread from there...