Understanding the 'Little Horn' power of Prophecy in Daniel.

[Hobie]

So lets take a look at the Little Horn power we find in Daniel starting in chapter 7 and break Daniel into parts:
Daniel 7:2-4
7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Most everyone agrees this is Babylon.
Daniel 7:5
7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Same agreement that this is Medi-Persia
Daniel 7:6
7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Pretty much agreement this is Greece
Daniel 7:7
7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Here we see Pagan Rome with the ten horns, which are the nations which came up with it. We also get a description in Daniel 2..
Daniel 2:33 &41-43
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

We see how the nations of the empire progressed and become Western Civilization in Europe, and still have not been able to unite in the manner of the Roman Empire..
Daniel 7:20 &24
7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

So the ten toes mixed with iron and clay are of the fourth Beast who subdues three of the kings, and the Little Horn also comes out from the fourth Beast:
Daniel 7:8
7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is Papal Rome, we see much agreement in history..

"Out of the ruins of political Rome, arose the great moral Empire in the 'giant form' of the Roman Church." – A.C. Flick, "The Rise of the Medieval Church," 1900, p. 150.

We see the three of the first horns...

The three kingdoms were to be plucked up to give place for the Papacy. This prediction found the exact fulfillment in the destruction of the three Arian kingdoms: the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths.

"I might cite that three that were eradicated from before the Pope out of the last first given; viz., the Heruli under Odoacer (AKA Odovacar), the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths."- 'Hora Apocalyptica, Vol. III, p. 168, Note 1, London: 1862.

Now we see in verse 8 and 25 that the little horn had eye`s like the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking great things and it "he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." or 1260 prophetic years.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Daniel 7:25
Dan 7:25. He shall speak words against the Most High and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

But at the end the Little Horn power or Papal Rome will be destroyed at the coming of Christ...
Daniel 7:26
Dan 7:26. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

So we see several points of history which show who the Little Horn power is as it came to power from among the ten divisions of Europe which were the ten horns. It began as "a little horn" or a little power at its beginning then after the three uprooted horns, the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths were taken out of the way as history shows us. So is we look at the little horn, we see it has a man at its head and it is different than the others.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn, not only had temporal or "state" powers, but we see it starts to blaspheme 'mouth speaking great things', so the little horn was a "church-state" combination, and we see more.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The Little Horn would speak 'great words against the most High' or blasphemy. And we see the definition of blasphemy from the Bible is to claim to be God and/or to claim to be able to forgive sin. The Little Horn power would persecute or 'wear out the saints' and kill many of the faithful. And we see this in the Dark Ages, during the 'time and times and the dividing of time' or 1,260 years this Little Horn entity's persecutions brought the death of millions and the Little Horn power would think to change times and law. We have to study and discern what scripture tells on this Little Horn entity, and understand..

 

[EarlyActs]

The best practice is to resolve the meaning within the 1st cent. Roman period.

 

[Hobie]

The best practice is to resolve the meaning within the 1st cent. Roman period.

We have to go where the prophecy takes us, not man or ideas from the one it points to.

 

[Hobie]

Well lets all look to see what this 'little horn' power is, as the text connects it to something very clear as the prophecy in Daniel gives us the key. Here the exact same time that the 'little horn' power is referred to as ' a time and times and the dividing of time' or 3 1/2 times, a meaning the period of 1260 days/years as found for the Beast of Revelation, lets compare.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This verse in Daniel is referring to a period of time that the little horn or Antichrist power will persecute the true believers or true church, and it blasphemes for 1260 years\42 months. The same is true for the time given "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half" for Daniel 12:7
In fact we can connect it to many more and also what the length of the period is for the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as seen in the use of "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months". These references represent a period of 1260 years as you have to take in account of the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5. These time periods occur eight times in scripture:
Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
Daniel 9:27, "half one set of seven".
Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

Notice it is in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation and clearly shows this period of 1260 years of the 'little horn/Beast' power prevailing in the church. Lets look closer.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The two witnesses is a reference to the Old and New Testament scriptures. For 1260 years scriptural truth would be suppressed, obscured by the traditions of men and all you have to do is ask what church set aside Gods Word and go by its own tradition.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The true church would flee persecution by the apostate church, with its burning at the stake and forming inquisitions to persecute the true believers.

This antichrist power would become a very powerful religious organization as well as political power as we saw before.
It would be guilty of blasphemy (Revelation 13:5, 6).
It would war with and persecute the saints (Revelation 13:7).
So who persecuted and destroyed millions of saints during the Dark Ages, history is pretty clear on that.

And lets look at how it would reign for 42 months, which equals 1,260 years, the "time, times and half a time". History shows its rise in A.D. 538 not long after the death of Theodoric the strong Ostrogothic king and the defeat of the barbarian tribes around Rome and the Roman code of law restored in Rome along with taking of temporal power as this antichrist power grew stronger, and that takes us to 1798. Lets see what events happened that year and see if any 'religious/political' powered were affected....

January–June​

• January – Eli Whitney contracts with the U.S. federal government for 10,000 muskets, which he produces with interchangeable parts.
• January 4 – Constantine Hangerli enters Bucharest, as Prince of Wallachia.
• January 22 – A coup d'état is staged in the Netherlands (Batavian Republic). Unitarian Democrat Pieter Vreede ends the power of the parliament (with a conservative-moderate majority).
• February 10 – The Pope is taken captive, and the Papacy is removed from power, by French General Louis-Alexandre Berthier.

 

[Hobie]

There are many Bible scholars who have gone over it and are in agreement that it is these empires Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome, with the Roman Empire then what arose in Rome after, a entity composed of a religious aspect but a temporal one also. Here is from a main religious site, What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? | GotQuestions.org
'The first of Daniel’s four beasts is “like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle” (Daniel 7:4). As Daniel watches, the wings are torn off the beast, and the creature stands erect like a man and a human mind is given to it. Later, the angel who interprets the dream tells Daniel, “The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth” (verse 17). This first beast is representative of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. Its rise to human-like status reflects Nebuchadnezzar’s deliverance from a beastly existence and his insight into the true nature of God (Daniel 4:34–35).

The second beast in Daniel’s vision is “like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth” (Daniel 7:5). A voice tells the second beast to devour flesh until it is satisfied. This beast represents the Medo-Persian Empire; the raising up of one side of the creature indicates that one of the kingdom’s parts (Persia) would be dominant. The three ribs in the creature’s mouth symbolize nations that were “devoured” by the Medes and the Persians. These three conquered nations are known to be Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt.

The third of the four beasts is “like a leopard,” except it has four bird-like wings on its back and four heads (Daniel 7:6). This beast is given authority to rule. The third beast represents Greece, an empire known for the swiftness of its conquests. The four heads are predictive of the four-way division of the empire following Alexander the Great’s death. Daniel’s vision of the ram and the goat gives further details of the second and third kingdoms (see Daniel 8).

The final beast that Daniel sees rising from the sea is the most dreadful—“terrifying and frightening and very powerful” (Daniel 7:7). This fourth beast has “bronze claws” (verse 19) and “large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left” totally annihilating its prey (verse 7). The fourth beast has ten horns. This creature represents the Roman Empire, a mighty kingdom that indeed crushed all its foes.'....

 

[Hobie]

Here is another...

The first beast: the Chaldean or Babylonian Empire​

The lion was symbolic of the kingdom of Babylon and the “man’s heart” was that of its most notable king, Nebuchadnezzar, who is written about considerably in the first four chapters of Daniel.

As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains, “The lion symbol was characteristic of Babylon, especially in Nebuchadnezzar’s time, when the Ishtar Gate entrance was adorned on either side with a long procession of yellow lions on blue-glazed brick, fashioned in high relief” (1985, Vol. 7, pp. 85-86).

The eagle’s wings plucked off the lion were symbolic of Nebuchadnezzar’s time of insanity when he was humbled by God to learn that “the Most High rules in the kingdom of men” (Daniel 4:17, 34-37).

Nebuchadnezzar ruled from Babylon to Asia Minor and from the Caspian Sea to Egypt. Biblically, his most notable conquest was that of the nation of Judah, with Daniel being the most famous captive from that nation.

Following his father’s death, Nebuchadnezzar reigned as king of Babylon for 43 years, from 604-561 B.C. (JewishEncyclopedia.com/Nebuchadnezzar). After his death, Babylon continued as a strong empire until 539 B.C., when it was conquered by the second rising power in Daniel’s vision, the Medo-Persian Empire.

The second beast: the Medo-Persian Empire​

Daniel 7:5 says, “And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’”

This beast’s being “raised up on one side” represents the Persians being greater than the Medes in this federated empire. This is made plain to Daniel in a vision two years later when he sees a ram with two horns, one being higher than the other. Daniel is told by the angel Gabriel that the ram represents the kings of Media and Persia (Daniel 8:3, 20).

The three ribs that are devoured represent three empires conquered by Persia’s first great king, Cyrus the Great, and his son, Cambyses II. Cyrus came to power in 558 B.C. and conquered the Lydian Empire (Asia Minor) in 546 and the Chaldean Empire (Babylon) in 539; and Cambyses conquered Egypt in 525 (ibid., p. 86).

The Medo-Persian Empire lasted for 200 years and, under later kings, expanded toward Greece in the west and to India in the east. At one point, the Persian Empire covered parts of three continents: Asia, Africa and Europe. But, like the Chaldean Empire, the Persian Empire finally came to an end. A new beast was rising in the west, and its appointed time had come.

The third beast: the Greco-Macedonian Empire​

Daniel 7:6 says, “After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.”

As with the second beast, the third beast is clearly identified by the angel Gabriel. It was Greece, and the “first king” was Alexander the Great. After his untimely death in 323 B.C., his empire was divided into four smaller kingdoms (Daniel 8:21-22).

The symbol of the leopard with four wings portrays the swiftness of Alexander’s sudden rise and conquest of the Persian Empire from 334-331 B.C. After his death, several years of struggle ensued that resulted in the division of his empire into four kingdoms. The new kingdoms were (1) Greece and Macedon, (2) Thrace and Asia Minor, (3) Middle East-Asia and (4) Egypt-Palestine.

“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.”The last two were ruled by Seleucus, who began the Seleucid Empire, and Ptolemy, who began the Ptolemaic Empire. These two kingdoms are called the king of North and the king of the South in Daniel 11.

Approximately two centuries later, the fourth beast conquered all of these kingdoms and expanded far beyond the lands conquered by the previous beasts.

Daniel 11 shows that the king of North and the king of the South will revive and play major roles in end-time prophecies.

The fourth beast, dreadful and terrible: the Roman Empire​

Next in Daniel 7:7 we read, “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.”

The devouring teeth of iron and the trampling feet correspond with Nebuchadnezzar’s vision of the fourth kingdom being strong as iron, breaking in pieces and crushing all others (Daniel 2:40-41). When the Roman Empire came to power under the Caesars (44 B.C.) it devoured, broke in pieces and trampled the residue of its enemies with its feet—as was described in Daniel’s vision in Daniel 7.

The fourth beast is quite different from the previous beasts, in that it has 10 horns. Daniel 7:24 says, “The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom.” Historically, these revivals began to rise after the fall of Rome in A.D. 476, with the later ones under a new name: the Holy Roman Empire. (For additional information, see “What Is Babylon?”).

This fourth beast would continue to be revived off and on for over 1,500 years until the end-time 10th revival. The 10th and final revival will be destroyed by Jesus Christ at His second coming (Daniel 7:26-27).

This leads to one other unusual feature of the prophecy of the fourth beast.

The little horn​

Daniel 7:8 says, “I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.”

This little horn represents a powerful religious system that would align with the last seven of the 10 political horns that were to arise after the fall of Rome. This coordination between church and state produced what ultimately became known as the Holy Roman Empire.

In verses 21-22 and 25, this little horn makes war against the saints, speaks pompous words against God, intends to change times and law, and persecutes the saints for a “time and times and half a time” (literally three and a half years, but using the day-for-a-year principle of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, 1,260 years).

Evidence of this persecution can be seen through the centuries, as hundreds and thousands of people in Europe lost their lives...'

And many others although some try to place Antiochus Epiphanes as the 'little horn power', and this cant be as he doesnt fit at the time given. We can go over that more closely...

 

[Hobie]

So lets take a look at Antiochus Epiphanes as the 'little horn power', and we have to understand that most Bible scholars acknowledge that the first beast is Babylon, so no issue there and the other 3. But then we have the Preterist interpretation which tries to the claim the second and third beast of Daniel 7 as Media and then Persia, with the fourth beast being Greece and the little horn coming out of Greece as Antiochus Epiphanes. This argument, however, falls apart quickly on numerous grounds, including the lack of historical data to warrant that separation of Media and Persia into two successive kingdoms. The majority of Bible scholars through the centuries, agree that interpretation of the fourth world power of Daniel 2 and 7 is Rome, as the Roman Empire. This was early taught by Jewish writers, even including Josephus and later in the early church by Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Aphrahat, Cyril, Chrysostom, Isidore, Sulpicius Severus, Jerome, and Theodoret, etc.. Then by the majority of the Reformation, and post-Reformation scholars and reformers. Beginning in the thirteenth century and onward in the time of the Reformers, they began to see that the 'little horn' power of Daniel 7, coming out of the ten divisions of Rome, was the Papacy.

We also find Bible scholars supporting the interpretation of Daniel 7 as being Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome in Daniel 8 in the interpretation of the ram 'which had two horns'. Its two disproportionate horns are specifically identified as the kings of Media and Persia together 'having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.' Thus, if in Daniel 7 Media-Persia is the second beast, and Greece the third, then the fourth beast in the prophecy, must represent Rome, the great power that arose after Greece. Therefore, the little horn that came from this fourth beast cannot represent Antiochus IV, who arose prior to, and not after, Rome.

If one looks the little horns in Daniel 7 and 8 are the same historical entity.
Both are identified with the same symbol, a 'little horn'.
Both are described as being 'little' but becoming 'great' later on.
Both are described as persecuting powers.
Both have the same people as object of their persecution.
Both are described as blasphemous powers.
Both are described as intelligent.
Both extend to the time of the end.
Both are to be supernaturally destroyed.

The little horn power of Daniel 7 and the littler horn power of Daniel 8 are both clearly the same entity, and because the little horn in Daniel 7 cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes, the little horn in Daniel 8 clearly cant be either.

Why Antiochus IV Is Not the Little Horn of Daniel 8 - 1844 Made Simple

Crucial to the interpretation of Daniel 8:9-14 is the identification of the little horn power, which dominates these verses. Attempting to identify this little horn, commentators have applied three different methods (preterist, futurist, and historicist) of prophetic interpretation to the...

1844madesimple.org

 

[EarlyActs]

We have to go where the prophecy takes us, not man or ideas from the one it points to.

Exactly. Dan 2’s basis would only lead us to that Roman Empire, not these RCC and EU results. You are preloading “the prophecy” with something not there.

We can resist totalitarianism without breaking the meaning of Daniel.

 

[EarlyActs]

Well lets all look to see what this 'little horn' power is, as the text connects it to something very clear as the prophecy in Daniel gives us the key. Here the exact same time that the 'little horn' power is referred to as ' a time and times and the dividing of time' or 3 1/2 times, a meaning the period of 1260 days/years as found for the Beast of Revelation, lets compare.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This verse in Daniel is referring to a period of time that the little horn or Antichrist power will persecute the true believers or true church, and it blasphemes for 1260 years\42 months. The same is true for the time given "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half" for Daniel 12:7
In fact we can connect it to many more and also what the length of the period is for the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as seen in the use of "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months". These references represent a period of 1260 years as you have to take in account of the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5. These time periods occur eight times in scripture:
Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
Daniel 9:27, "half one set of seven".
Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

Notice it is in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation and clearly shows this period of 1260 years of the 'little horn/Beast' power prevailing in the church. Lets look closer.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The two witnesses is a reference to the Old and New Testament scriptures. For 1260 years scriptural truth would be suppressed, obscured by the traditions of men and all you have to do is ask what church set aside Gods Word and go by its own tradition.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The true church would flee persecution by the apostate church, with its burning at the stake and forming inquisitions to persecute the true believers.

This antichrist power would become a very powerful religious organization as well as political power as we saw before.
It would be guilty of blasphemy (Revelation 13:5, 6).
It would war with and persecute the saints (Revelation 13:7).
So who persecuted and destroyed millions of saints during the Dark Ages, history is pretty clear on that.

And lets look at how it would reign for 42 months, which equals 1,260 years, the "time, times and half a time". History shows its rise in A.D. 538 not long after the death of Theodoric the strong Ostrogothic king and the defeat of the barbarian tribes around Rome and the Roman code of law restored in Rome along with taking of temporal power as this antichrist power grew stronger, and that takes us to 1798. Lets see what events happened that year and see if any 'religious/political' powered were affected....

January–June​

• January – Eli Whitney contracts with the U.S. federal government for 10,000 muskets, which he produces with interchangeable parts.
• January 4 – Constantine Hangerli enters Bucharest, as Prince of Wallachia.
• January 22 – A coup d'état is staged in the Netherlands (Batavian Republic). Unitarian Democrat Pieter Vreede ends the power of the parliament (with a conservative-moderate majority).
• February 10 – The Pope is taken captive, and the Papacy is removed from power, by French General Louis-Alexandre Berthier.

What about 280 AD? That’s about when Matt 1’s scheme of history ends.

 

[Hobie]

What about 280 AD? That’s about when Matt 1’s scheme of history ends.

No, Daniel and Revelation clearly show it goes to the end, and Christ was clear In the four gospels including Matthew that He was talking to this also.

 

[Hobie]

History records what happened exactly in this timeline as the prophecy of Daniel (and Revelation) laid out.. Here is a good description....' let us review what happened during those 1260 years of Papal domination. One writer described this horrible period of the Dark Ages as follows:

“In the sixth century the papacy had become firmly established. Its seat of power was fixed in the imperial city, and the bishop of Rome was declared to be the head over the entire church. Paganism had given place to the papacy. The dragon had given to the beast "his power, and his seat, and great authority." [REVELATION 13:2] And now began the 1260 years of papal oppression foretold in the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation. [DANIEL 7:25; REVELATION 13:5-7.] Christians were forced to choose, either to yield their integrity and accept the papal ceremonies and worship, or to wear away their lives in dungeons or suffer death by the rack, the fagot, or the headsman's ax.”

“The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened. Faith was transferred from Christ, the true foundation, to the pope of Rome. Instead of trusting in the Son of God for forgiveness of sins and for eternal salvation, the people looked to the pope, and to the priests and prelates to whom he delegated authority. They were taught that the pope was their earthly mediator, and that none could approach God except through him, and, further, that he stood in the place of God to them, and was therefore to be implicitly obeyed. A deviation from his requirements was sufficient cause for the severest punishment to be visited upon the bodies and souls of the offenders. Thus the minds of the people were turned away from God to fallible, erring, and cruel men, nay more, to the prince of darkness himself, who exercised his power through them.”

1260 Years of Medieval Darkness​

Although the Darkest period of the history of this world was during the 1260 year reign of the medieval Papacy, God raised great dignitaries of faith who proclaimed the Word of God and make it shine in the midst of darkness. Examples of such men of renown are: the Germans Martin Luther and Melanchthon, from Prague: John Huss and Jerome, the Swiss Ulric Zwingli, the Scot John Knox, the Englishmen: John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Cranmer, Hugh Latimer, John and Charles Wesley, the Huguenots of France. They are such, “Of whom the world was not worthy” (Hebrews 11:38).

The Word of God Banned for 1260 years​

The same Dark Ages period of 1260 years is depicted in the Word of God as 1260 days when the two witnesses prophesied in sackcloth (Revelation 11:3). This was the period when the Word of God, depicted as the two witnesses, the Old and New Testaments was proscribed under penalty of death. “During the greater part of this period, God's witnesses remained in a state of obscurity. The papal power sought to hide from the people the word of truth, and set before them false witnesses to contradict its testimony. When the Word of God was proscribed by religious and secular authority; when its testimony was perverted, and every effort made that men and demons could invent to turn the minds of the people from it; when those who dared proclaim its sacred truths were hunted, betrayed, tortured, buried in dungeon cells, martyred for their faith, or compelled to flee to mountain fastness, and to dens and caves of the earth--then the faithful witnesses prophesied in sackcloth. Yet they continued their testimony throughout the entire period of 1260 years. In the darkest times there were faithful men who loved God's word and were jealous for His honor.”

The Word of God was banned because it reveals the Papacy’s schemes of deception and it reveals their span of temporal power during the Middle Ages. This period is also portrayed as the period 1260 days during which the woman flees into the wilderness. This is a reference to the Christian Church that had been persecuted during that dreadful period of the Dark Ages (Revelation 12:6).

The Inquisition and Galileo Galilei​

The Papacy not only had a problem with the calendar and biblical chronology but also with scientific knowledge, especially the knowledge of the natural world that reveals what Rome tried to suppress: that “the heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork” (Psalms 19:1). The Papacy was furiously suppressing all vestiges of scientific knowledge and wanted to continue to keep the world in ignorance and superstition. Yet they could not stop God’s enlightenment of great minds like Galileo Galilei who had the courage to stand for truth, even when that would cause him to be accused of heresy for daring to think differently to the Papacy. Galileo believed that the earth rotates around the sun, but the Papacy could not tolerate that teaching because their system of mind-enslavement would collapse. They needed to propagate their superstitions emanating from the erroneous belief that the earth is the center of the universe.

It was inconvenient for the Papacy to have astronomers believe that the earth is a 360° degree sphere that moves around the sun. The Papacy was not willing to acknowledge that the center of the universe is the Heavenly Sanctuary where “God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness” (Psalms 47:8). The pope is not the king in the Kingdom of Heaven, neither is he king of the earth. As the Psalmist proclaims: “For God is the King of all the earth…” (Psalms 47:7). God did not create a flat earth, but the Papacy kept people in ignorance and fear deceived millions with such sophism. Yet the Word of God reveals that the earth is a spherical planet:

“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in” (Isaiah 40:22).

In dreadful expectation of the papacy’s torturous death by burning alive at the stake, Galileo was forced by the Inquisition in 1633 A.D. to recant and sign with his own hand the following retraction: “I abjure, curse, and detest the error and heresy of the motion of the earth.” With indignation the preacher Chiniquy who was rescued from the Catholic clergy said about Galileo: “That learned man had to degrade himself by swearing a lie… Thus the wings of that giant eagle of Rome were clipped by the scissors of the pope. But God would not allow that giant intellect to be entirely strangled by the bloody hands of that implacable enemy of light and truth, the pope.”

God strengthened Galileo, and as he stood up from his humiliating kneeling position, he said: “Eppur si muove”, “But it moves”, meaning that his retraction was not going to prevent the earth from rotating around the sun. Yet, he was found guilty of heresy and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.....

 

[Hobie]

John Huss​

John Huss was sentenced to a most horrendous death; he was burnt alive at the stake by Roman Catholic Church.

“Being again exhorted to retract, he replied, turning toward the people, "With what face, then, should I behold the heavens? How should I look on those multitudes of men to whom I have preached the pure gospel? No; I esteem their salvation more than this poor body, now appointed unto death." Finally a crown or mitre, on which were painted frightful figures of demons, and bearing the inscription, "The Arch-Heretic," was placed upon his head. "Most joyfully," he said, "will I wear this crown of shame for thy sake, O Lord Jesus, who for me didst wear a crown of thorns."

“He was now delivered up to the secular authorities, and led away to the place of execution. An immense procession followed, hundreds of men at arms, priests and bishops in their costly robes, and the inhabitants of Constance. When he had been fastened to the stake, and all was ready for the fire to be lighted, the martyr was once more exhorted to save himself by renouncing his errors. "What errors," said Huss, "shall I renounce? I know myself guilty of none. I call God to witness that all that I have written or preached has been with the view of rescuing souls from sin and perdition; and, therefore, most joyfully will I confirm with my blood that truth which I have written and preached. When the flames kindled about him, he began to sing, "Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me," and so continued till his voice was silenced forever.”

The Martyr Jerome​

Because of his faith in the Word of God, Jerome, another faithful man was condemned, by the Catholic prelates, to be burnt alive at the stake. On the day of his execution he was pleading with God for mercy as he had previously recanted from his faith because of fear when he beheld Huss’ execution. At the stake Jerome exclaimed: "Of all the sins that I have committed since my youth, none weigh so heavily upon my mind, and cause me such poignant remorse, as that which I committed in this fatal place, when I approved of the iniquitous sentence rendered against Wycliffe, and the holy martyr, John Huss, my master. Yes, I confess it from my heart; and declare with horror that I disgracefully quailed, when, through a dread of death, I condemned their doctrines. I therefore supplicate Almighty God to deign to pardon me my sins, and this one in particular, the most heinous of all." “His last words, uttered as the flames rose about him, were a prayer. "Lord, Almighty Father," he cried, "have pity on me, and pardon me my sins, for thou knowest that I have always loved thy truth." His voice ceased, but his lips continued to move in prayer.”

John Wycliffe​

John Wycliffe in his desire to reach out to the hungry multitudes with the Word of God, made it possible for the first copies of the Word of God to circulate in the English language as he translated it from the Latin version. However, Wycliffe’s daring task was not appreciated by an enraged Papacy that was thirsty for any opponent’s blood. This man of God died a natural death, leaving behind a heritage of faithfulness to the Word of God. “The papists had failed to work their will with Wycliffe during his life, and their hatred could not be satisfied while his body rested quietly in the grave. By the decree of the Council of Constance, more than forty years after his death his bones were exhumed and publicly burned, and the ashes were thrown into a neighboring brook.”

William Tyndale​

Englishman William Tyndale translated the Word of God in the early 16th century. The influence of his translation still remains with us today in the form of the King James Version. This later translation relied heavily upon Tyndale’s work. Tyndale was burned at the stake on 6 October, 1536. The Catholic prelates condemned him to death in the flames after finding him guilty of treason against the Papacy. He was killed for having translated the Word of God from the original Hebrew and Greek into the English language. Of Tyndale it is written that he “was to complete the work of Wycliffe in giving the Word of God to his countrymen.” He was “A diligent student and an earnest seeker for truth, who had received the Gospel from the Greek Testament of Erasmus. He fearlessly preached his convictions, urging that all doctrines be tested by the Scriptures. To the papist claim that the church had given the Word of God, and the church alone could explain it, Tyndale responded, "Do you know who taught the eagles to find their prey? That same God teaches his hungry children to find their Father in his Word. Far from having given us the Scriptures, it is you who have hidden them from us; it is you who burn those who teach them; and if you could, you would burn the Scriptures themselves."

 

[3 Resurrections]

But then we have the Preterist interpretation which tries to the claim the second and third beast of Daniel 7 as Media and then Persia, with the fourth beast being Greece and the little horn coming out of Greece as Antiochus Epiphanes. This argument, however, falls apart quickly on numerous grounds, including the lack of historical data to warrant that separation of Media and Persia into two successive kingdoms. The majority of Bible scholars through the centuries, agree that interpretation of the fourth world power of Daniel 2 and 7 is Rome, as the Roman Empire.

Where are you getting your idea that Preterists as a whole do not recognize Daniel's 4th beast as featuring Rome? Personally, I have not seen Preterists in my studies tending to divide the the Medo-Persian period into two beasts, as you mistakenly claim here.

Rome was indeed featured within the 4th beast of Daniel, and was connected with Revelation 13's Sea Beast as well.

If one looks the little horns in Daniel 7 and 8 are the same historical entity.

No, they are not. The horn in Daniel 8:9 coming out of the Greek empire was Antiochus Epiphanes IV (which, by the way, was called a "strong horn" in the LXX - not a "little" one).

The "little horn" in Daniel 7:24 coming out of the 4th (Roman) Beast came up in the midst of the ten horns, and would "exceed all the former ones in wickedness". This was the emperor Nero, more wicked than all the other emperor horns. He was given power to wage war against the saints in persecution from late AD 64 until just before Nero's suicide death in AD 68 during the "time, times, and half a time". This was the same period of 42 literal months when the little horn in Revelation 13:5 was allowed to make war against the saints and overcome them.

 

[Hobie]

Where are you getting your idea that Preterists as a whole do not recognize Daniel's 4th beast as featuring Rome? Personally, I have not seen Preterists in my studies tending to divide the the Medo-Persian period into two beasts, as you mistakenly claim here.

Rome was indeed featured within the 4th beast of Daniel, and was connected with Revelation 13's Sea Beast as well.


No, they are not. The horn in Daniel 8:9 coming out of the Greek empire was Antiochus Epiphanes IV (which, by the way, was called a "strong horn" in the LXX - not a "little" one).

The "little horn" in Daniel 7:24 coming out of the 4th (Roman) Beast came up in the midst of the ten horns, and would "exceed all the former ones in wickedness". This was the emperor Nero, more wicked than all the other emperor horns. He was given power to wage war against the saints in persecution from late AD 64 until just before Nero's suicide death in AD 68 during the "time, times, and half a time". This was the same period of 42 literal months when the little horn in Revelation 13:5 was allowed to make war against the saints and overcome them.

Well, they arent sure where to place these kingdoms, so there is a lot of confusion in there views. As for lets look and see if he fits.
The four beasts are basically brought to view here, and the angel tells Daniel that they represent four "kings" that should arise out of the earth. We know that "Kings" here represent kingdoms, since we know from Daniel 2 that Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome are represented by the symbols as we see in the image, and its parts.

Daniel 2:19-45
19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.
24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.
25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.
26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

And so we see that they come all the way to our present situation in the kingdoms of the feet, 'part of iron and part of clay.' It decribes pretty well and distinctly the kingdoms that came out of the Roman Empire and we have today trying to come together in what they call themselves 'the European Union'. They keep saying they are united but cant agree on much anything or even come to the level the Roman Empire was, and some rather not even be in it is they werent across from the others. Now look at what it has in Revelation and compare to Daniel..

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

 

[Hobie]

You have to understand that Preterism, and Futurism were attempts by the Roman Catholic church to divert the attention away from the Pope as being the antichrist, which had begun to be made clear from the prophecy. So it came up with these two things to confuse and put aside what the Protestant believed, who looked upon the pope as the antichrist power. By the time of the convening of the Council of Trent in 1545, Bibles in German, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, and English with Tyndale’s New Testament and other complete Bibles had been published, and the Reformation established in Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, and England. The Roman Catholic church and the Reformers stood in complete opposition at the Council of Trent, where the council under control of the Catholic element condemned what the Reformation taught. The Council of Trent also made decrees that became permanent law of the Catholic church. Reformation truths were there rejected and and branded heresy in what became know as the Counter-Reformation, and we see the introduction of Futurism and Preterism as the Jesuits sought to blunt the charge of the Pope being the antichrist power of Daniel and Revelation.

The Reformation studied the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation and showed how the Papacy was the antichrist of prophecy. The Jesuits were called upon to provided this method and they responded, determined to lift the stigma from the Papacy by locating the Antichrist at some point where it could not be applied to the Pope and the Roman church. The Jesuits Ribera, of Spain, and Bellarmine, of Rome put out futurist interpretation. Almost simultaneously Alcazar, Spanish Jesuit of Seville, advanced the preterist interpretation. These were designed to meet and overwhelm the Historical interpretation of the Protestants. The Preterism claim accomplished it by making prophecy stop altogether short of papal Rome's career. The Futurism view achieved it by making it basically jump over the full timeline of papal dominance, putting the Antichrist into the distant future, but history shows the true facts that cant be changed.

If one looks, the prophecy gives a general outline in history of these kingdoms in Daniel 2, 7, and 8 but it also gives specific marks that identify it. For instance, the fourth beast had ten "horns," and three of these horns were plucked up by another "little horn." So lets see what history tells us on this part, "behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots"

The prophecy is that the "little horn" should come up among the "horns" that divided the Roman Empire, and these were the ones that began the decline of the Empire. History shows that around 250 A. D., the Goths invaded the Roman Empire; and the Romans suffered a serious defeat, and the emperor Decius and his son were slain. The successor, Gallus, purchased peace by paying an annual tribute to the Goths. The Goths however, continued the attacks until about 271 the emperor Aurelian concluded a treaty with the Goths and Vandals, in which the Romans agreed to withdraw their forces from the great province of Dacia, and give it to the Goths and Vandals. This was the beginning of the dismemberment of the Roman Empire. The Allemani overran the country from the Danube to the river Po in Italy, and they remained in the northern part of the empire, never retreating beyond the bounds of the Roman Empire.

Then the Emperor Constantine gave permission to the Vandals to settle in the provinces of Pannonia and Noricum. Now this is the same emperor Constantine who united the Catholic Church to the Roman state, and became the leader in religious legislation, and in its execution. As a pagan emperor, Constantine was the 'Pontifex Maximus' of the state religion; and now as a 'Christian emperor' he claims the same power, but now also calls himself a "bishop," and can rule over the church. In Rome the Roman Senate was still in power, and Constantine was tolerant of them; but in the East he enforced his power mostly unfettered. One of the reasons that Constantine's transferred the seat of government from Rome to Constantinople in 330 A. D., was to meet the onslaughts of the Goths in what is now Bulgaria.

Prophecy says that the "little horn" was "diverse" from the other horns, and we see the power it got in the head being the 'Pontifex Maximus'. In 445 A. D. the Roman emperor in the West, Valentinian III, by imperial decree made the bishop of Rome head of all the Western bishops. Leo the Great was pope at that time, and claimed and exercised all the prerogatives this decree included, calling himself the "Vicar of St. Peter." So the papacy came into power among the ten barbarian tribes of Europe, and three of these tribes were uprooted or basically taken out,

This little horn represents Rome in both its phases, Pagan Rome and Papal Rome. Daniel saw Rome first in its pagan, imperial phase, warring against the Jewish people and the early Christians, and then in its papal phase, continuing down to our own day and into the end. So its pretty clear who is this antichrist entity and something that shows even more. In Daniel chapter 2, the iron representing Rome continues into the feet of iron mixed with clay; that is, until the end of time. The little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes from the fourth beast but remains part of this fourth beast, and we see it continues also until the end of time, "take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.'

 

[3 Resurrections]

And so we see that they come all the way to our present situation in the kingdoms of the feet, 'part of iron and part of clay.' It decribes pretty well and distinctly the kingdoms that came out of the Roman Empire and we have today trying to come together in what they call themselves 'the European Union'.

The "CLAY" was the people of OT Israel. This "clay" reference was a throwback to Isaiah's statement in Isaiah 64:8. "But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the CLAY, and thou our potter: and we all are the work of thy hand. Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people."

OT Israel as a people were supposed to stay separated from the pagan empires and their idolatry. This is why Daniel's statue was composed all of different metals, and the one element different from them all being the clay found in the feet and toes. This was a symbol of the nation of Israel combining itself with the pagan nations. In the days of Christ's earthly ministry, this had become obviously true, with the priesthood submitting itself to Rome's governance in order to insure their own financial security and elevated position within the nation of Israel. "We have no king but Caesar" was a clear indication of where the priesthood's loyalty was placed instead of God.

This uneasy union of Israelite "clay" and the iron of the Roman empire was never going to persist for long, as evidenced by the AD 66 Zealot rebellion that broke out and cast off their Roman governance. This Zealot rebellion was led by ten generals chosen in AD 66 to prepare Israel's cities for the inevitable conflict.

God smashed those feet and reduced that entire statue to dust back in AD 70. Ever since then, the stone kingdom has been steadily increasing in size, and will become a mountain that fills the whole earth.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You have to understand that Preterism, and Futurism were attempts by the Roman Catholic church to divert the attention away from the Pope as being the antichrist, which had begun to be made clear from the prophecy

Hobie, you really need to leave Preterism out of your battle against Catholicism. It doesn't help your cause. There is no need to label the Papacy as the Antichrist - the Papacy is an evil enough entity without having that incorrect label put on it.

The Reformers were mistaken in linking the Papacy with the Antichrist, which was a first-century Zealot leader - the Antichrist "Man of Lawlessness" which Paul said was then being restrained from rising (briefly) to power. This restrainer of the Antichrist Zealot leader was the high priest Ananias who had participated in Paul's trial, whom the Zealot leader Antichrist murdered and took out of the way so that he could rise to power in Jerusalem in AD 66.

Considering what blistering persecution the Reformers' generation was enduring from the Catholic church, it is easy to see why they would have made this mistaken connection of the Papacy with the Antichrist. But it is an incorrect designation of the Papacy, which came along long after the Antichrist had been destroyed back in AD 66.

 

[EarlyActs]

No, Daniel and Revelation clearly show it goes to the end, and Christ was clear In the four gospels including Matthew that He was talking to this also.

So Matthew did all that for nothing, OK.

Matt 24 A (and the others) is clearly about the 1st century . Compare Mt 10–the same first cent language. Luke is very detailed about the revolt against Rome in 13, 15, 17, 19 and of course 21. In 23:28 he makes a biological time stamp when referring to Hos 6.

Then there is an allowance that the final day of judgement might be put back, and Peter explains why., 2 P 3.

 

[Hobie]

The "CLAY" was the people of OT Israel. This "clay" reference was a throwback to Isaiah's statement in Isaiah 64:8. "But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the CLAY, and thou our potter: and we all are the work of thy hand. Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people."

OT Israel as a people were supposed to stay separated from the pagan empires and their idolatry. This is why Daniel's statue was composed all of different metals, and the one element different from them all being the clay found in the feet and toes. This was a symbol of the nation of Israel combining itself with the pagan nations. In the days of Christ's earthly ministry, this had become obviously true, with the priesthood submitting itself to Rome's governance in order to insure their own financial security and elevated position within the nation of Israel. "We have no king but Caesar" was a clear indication of where the priesthood's loyalty was placed instead of God.

This uneasy union of Israelite "clay" and the iron of the Roman empire was never going to persist for long, as evidenced by the AD 66 Zealot rebellion that broke out and cast off their Roman governance. This Zealot rebellion was led by ten generals chosen in AD 66 to prepare Israel's cities for the inevitable conflict.

God smashed those feet and reduced that entire statue to dust back in AD 70. Ever since then, the stone kingdom has been steadily increasing in size, and will become a mountain that fills the whole earth.

No, it is the nations that came out of the Roman Empire, and we see them today in the EU trying to bring the 'clay' and the 'iron' of the different nations together, but they keep failing.

 

[Hobie]

Hobie, you really need to leave Preterism out of your battle against Catholicism. It doesn't help your cause. There is no need to label the Papacy as the Antichrist - the Papacy is an evil enough entity without having that incorrect label put on it.

The Reformers were mistaken in linking the Papacy with the Antichrist, which was a first-century Zealot leader - the Antichrist "Man of Lawlessness" which Paul said was then being restrained from rising (briefly) to power. This restrainer of the Antichrist Zealot leader was the high priest Ananias who had participated in Paul's trial, whom the Zealot leader Antichrist murdered and took out of the way so that he could rise to power in Jerusalem in AD 66.

Considering what blistering persecution the Reformers' generation was enduring from the Catholic church, it is easy to see why they would have made this mistaken connection of the Papacy with the Antichrist. But it is an incorrect designation of the Papacy, which came along long after the Antichrist had been destroyed back in AD 66.

They werent mistaken, and we see many are being deceived and are backing away from identifying the Antichrist power, who Reformers and even those before them saw clearly who the Antichrist was. Here is good description of Martin Luther's conviction on this...
"Luther came to think of the pope as the Antichrist because, first, of what the general tradition was about where to find the Antichrist. The Antichrist was someone subverting the Church from within. That was the expectation popularly. And when he saw the papal office and read the histories and saw it subverting the gospel as he understood it, he became convinced that that was the proof that the papal office was the office of the Antichrist, trying to destroy God's church from within.

The pope claimed to be Christ's representative on earth. Luther became convinced that the pope was the devil's representative on earth. And that took graphic form very early in the Reformation ... with one of the most effective pieces of propaganda in the early Reformation: a series of 26 woodcuts that juxtaposed some action in Christ's life with something in the papacy. Christ carrying his cross to be crucified; the pope being carried in his throne on the backs of people ... . Christ washing the feet of the disciples; the pope having his feet kissed. And over and over again, scenes from Christ's life juxtaposed with scenes from the papacy. ... Christ was always humble and serving; the papacy, the pope was always lordly and [lording] over others. Christ is Christ; the pope is Antichrist.

At the end of his life, Martin Luther decided he had to issue his final testament against all the enemies of the gospel. And he published treatises, he encouraged people, but words were not sufficient. He also had to use images. And so he asked his friend, the painter Lucas Cranach, to do a series of woodcuts, and Luther wrote the verses for them. And these woodcuts were designed to show as graphically as possible, to those who could read and those who couldn't, what Luther thought of the papacy... Another one shows the pope riding an ass, holding a pile of dung in his hands, saying "The pope is offering a counsel." And another that shows the German emperor lying on the ground with the pope with his foot on the emperor's neck, which shows, once again graphically, Luther's belief that the papacy was trying to control secular authority throughout the world. These were all actions of the Antichrist, and Luther wanted to make it clear what he thought of the pope".... Apocalypticism Explained | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS

Here is a list I came across of Pre-Reformation and Reformers Interpretations:

Date Name Reference Interpretation

c. 1310 Dante Alighieri
Rev. 17 Harlot=Roman Church

c. 1331 Michael of Cesena
Rev. 17 Harlot/Antichrist=Roman Church, Pope

c. 1345 Johannes de Rupescissa
Antichrist, Rev. 17 Babylon, Rev. 17 Harlot=Pope/Roman church


c. 1350 Francesco Petrarch
Rev. 17 Harlot=Papal Court

c. 1367 John Milicz
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Man of Sin=Papacy


c. 1379 John Wycliffe
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn. Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot=Pope/Papacy


c. 1390 John Purvey
Antichrist, Rev. 13 666, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon=Pope/Papacy


c. 1412 John Huss
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Pope/Papacy


Reformation Era Interpretations:

1522 Martin Luther
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1543 Philipp Melanchthon
Antichrist, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1545 Andreas Osiander
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1554 Nicolaus von Amsdorf
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1558 Johann Funck
Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1560 Virgil Solis
Antichrist, Little Horn, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1570 Georg Nigrinus
Antichrist= Pope

1572 David Chytraeus
Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin= Papacy

1530 Johann Oecolampadius
Antichrist, Little Horn=Papacy

1557 Heinrich Bullinger
Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1550 William Tyndale
Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1545 George Joys
Antichrist, Little Horn=Papacy

1554 Nicholas Ridley
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Rev. 17 Harlot. Rev. 17 Babylon
Rev. 17 Beast=Papacy

1553 Hugh Latimer
Antichrist=Papacy

1582 Thomas Cranmer
Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

1550 John Bale
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon
Rev. 17 Beast=Papacy

1562 John Jewel
Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon
Rev. 17 Beast=Papacy

1587 John Foxe
Antichrist, Man of Sin=Bishop of Rome

1563 Anglican Formulas
Antichrist=Papacy

1547 John Knox
Antichrist, Little Horn=Church of Rome/Papacy

1593 John Napier
Antichrist, Man of Sin, Rev. 13 1st Beast, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon
Rev. 17 Beast =Pope/Papacy/Latin Empire

1614 Thomas Brightman
Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Pope/Papacy

1618 David Pareus
Antichrist, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Beast=Pope/Papacy

Sir Isaac Newton
Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

John Wesley
Man of Sin. Rev. 17 Harlot. Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy also Antichrist

And they ask the question, "In view of the foregoing Reformation interpretations identifying Papacy as the Antichrist and Man of Sin, why do so many Evangelical Protestants today believe the Man of Sin and Antichrist are future individuals?" Reformation Views