Total Depravity

[JIM]

One more time. Read @Eleanor 's post #39. Then support your position to the contrary with something besides an opinion. In much the same way as others have been doing for you in supporting their view. Otherwise it is just an argumentative approach to forums.

So then, Adam was a sinner and he sinned because he was a sinner. OK, I get what you are saying.

 

[makesends]

I will start with your last sentence first and see where it goes.

To be in Christ does not mean to not be in Adam. The only place where the phrase "in Adam" appears in scripture is 1 Corinthians 15:22. And there it is clear that the phrase "in Adam" signifies the entire human race. Therefore, it seems to me, that "in Adam" does not mean what you think it means and instead means the whole of mankind. And that suggests to me, that so much of what you put on Adam is likely false. There is no other significance of being a descendent of Adam than that of being human.

Well, I'll give you this: You don't even think like an Arminian.

 

[JIM]

Well, I'll give you this: You don't even think like an Arminian.

I have never claimed to think like an Arminian. I think as the bible tells me.

 

[Carbon]

That is what happened to him, not us. And that wasn't the worst part. He died spiritually due to his sin.

So, what Adam did had no effect on his posterity?

 

[Arial]

That is not what it says.

It is what it says. I showed you that so why the obstinance? Don't just say that is not what it says. Break it down, step by step, and show me that it does not say that all men sin because sin came into the world because Adam sinned.

 

[Carbon]

That is what happened to him, not us. And that wasn't the worst part. He died spiritually due to his sin.

Nothing happened to us?
Paul teaches that all mankind sinned in Adam, and are therefore all without excuse. Paul tells us that we are all dead in trespass and sin, estranged from God, and helpless. What do you think Paul is teaching here?

You say he (Adam) dies spiritually due to his sin. And true it is. But what does Paul say of us? We all died in Adam.

The extent is total inability or, total depravity.

 

[Carbon]

It is what it says. I showed you that so why the obstinance? Don't just say that is not what it says. Break it down, step by step, and show me that it does not say that all men sin because sin came into the world because Adam sinned.

I think he just wants to argue, or he's in denial.

 

[Arial]

So then, Adam was a sinner and he sinned because he was a sinner. OK, I get what you are saying.

Why do you always turn what someone says on his head and repeat it back as though that is what they said? Hmmmm? Why?

Adam became a sinner when he sinned. And we are all sinners because of it. We are like our father Adam. Like begets like. This is the post that brought about the above quote by you:

We are born sinners. . .by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), and we are born with our nature.

We sin because we are sinners, rather than we are sinners because we sin.

Does it say what you claim it says?

 

[Arial]

I think he just wants to argue, or he's in denial.

I agree. A way to fill up time, wasting everyone else's.

 

[Carbon]

Because of Adam, our nature is now sinful (Ro 8:5-8, 6-36, Col 1:10-12, Eph 4:22-27, Gal 5:17-25), an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

Indeed

 

[Carbon]

Anoth

Not a single one of those passages even mention Adam. Moreover, not a single one of them state or even suggest that our condition is "because of Adam".

Haha. Read the rest of the scripture friend.

 

[Arial]

Well, I'll give you this: You don't even think like an Arminian.

He is very Pelagian in much of what he presents, and semi-Pelagian in others. However according to @JIM in previous posts in various threads, he is not those things because he doesn't know what they are.

 

[Carbon]

Nothing happened because of Adam. Whatever would have happened to all men because of Adam was completely negated for all men because of Jesus (Rom 5:12-19).

15 But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many. Romans 5.

Don't you mean "the many."

 

[Carbon]

He is very Pelagian in much of what he presents, and semi-Pelagian in others. However according to @JIM in previous posts in various threads, he is not those things because he doesn't know what they are.

 

[makesends]

15 But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many. Romans 5.

Don't you mean "the many."

Apparently he doesn't, in keeping with unlimited atonement.

 

[Carbon]

Apparently he doesn't, in keeping with unlimited atonement.

Yes, obviously. However, I'd like to see him prove his theory with scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

It doesn't say that death spread to all men because Adam sinned. It says, death spread to all men because all sinned.

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

Is that one man...Seth, Cain, Abel, Noah, Adam or Steve?

 

[Eleanor]

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

Is that one man...Seth, Cain, Abel, Noah, Adam or Steve?

It's Steve, right?

 

[CrowCross]

It's Steve, right?

Well, with the woke it's Adam and Steve...right?

 

[JIM]

So, what Adam did had no effect on his posterity?

It kept any of posterity out of the Garden. But then, no one would have been any better at not sinning than was Adam; no one would have lasted very long in the Garden anyway.

I will reiterate what I have said here a couple of times, Romans 5:12-19 says, against what so many claim, that the effect of Jesus' obedience negated any such effect as original sin that Adam's disobedience might have had. Consider verse 18.

(KJV)Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Let A be "the offence of one judgment" and let B be "the righteousness of one ". Then verse 18 reads

(KJV)Therefore as by A came upon all men to condemnation; even so by B the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I think there is no doubt that in reading that, one would have to conclude that the effect of B is upon the very same group as the effect of A. And since it is generally interpreted that the "all men" effected by A is indeed the whole of mankind, then that is the same group as the "all men" effected by B. There is no rational analysis, other than a misguided preconceived view of things, that would change the group designated all men in the first half of that sentence to some other group designated all men in the second half. It must be talking about the same group, the same all men.

And since the effect of A is taken to be the condition of the spirit of a person at conception (or birth if you prefer), the effect of B must be taken to be also the condition of the spirit of a person at conception. This has nothing to do with anything that the person does after birth. It is dealing strictly with the condition at conception.

Those who profess the soteriology of the Reformed Theology like tout and spout the Doctrines of Grace the subject of the OP. And from my view, they ignore the very first doctrine of Grace that God gives to each and every human being. That of Original Grace. Every child comes into this world as a child of God. He loses that position when he commits his first sin.

Having lost that position, his only hope then is to be born again, to be REborn.

What did Paul say? He said, " I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died . the very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me."

And I would here remind you that Romans 5:12 does not say that death spread to all men because of Adam. It says, "death spread to all men because all sinned--". And here death is spiritual death.

I could continue with a lot more, but I won't bother now.
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