Total Depravity

[Lees]

In the Westminister Confession, the doctrine of Total Depravity (Total Inability) is stated as follows: Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Agree, disagree?

Agree.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Nothing happened because of Adam. Whatever would have happened to all men because of Adam was completely negated for all men because of Jesus (Rom 5:12-19).

How can you say 'Nothing happened because of Adam'? (Rom. 5:12) "...by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin...."

By Adam's sin, sin and death entered the world. Only by Adam's sin. Which is proven by (Rom. 5:13-14) "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's trangression..."

All those from Adam to Moses sinned, but their own sin was not imputed to them. Their own sin did not bring death upon them. Their own sin was not imputed to them because they were not under law. (Rom. 5:14) "them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's trangression" Adam was under a law. "Thou shalt not"

But, even though their own sin was not imputed to them, they still died. Why? Because of Adams sin which was imputed to them. All from Adam to Moses died only because of Adam's sin. (Rom. 5:13-14) "sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses".

What happens to all men due to Adam, happens still. We are born sinners. Jesus, the Last Adam, provided a way to no longer be linked to the first Adam, and instead be in the Last Adam. (1 Cor. 15:22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

And the only way to be 'in Christ' and no longer be 'in Adam' is by faith. (Philippians 3:9) "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

Lees

 

[JIM]

And the only way to be 'in Christ' and no longer be 'in Adam' is by faith. (Philippians 3:9) "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

I will start with your last sentence first and see where it goes.

To be in Christ does not mean to not be in Adam. The only place where the phrase "in Adam" appears in scripture is 1 Corinthians 15:22. And there it is clear that the phrase "in Adam" signifies the entire human race. Therefore, it seems to me, that "in Adam" does not mean what you think it means and instead means the whole of mankind. And that suggests to me, that so much of what you put on Adam is likely false. There is no other significance of being a descendent of Adam than that of being human.

 

[CrowCross]

Nothing happened because of Adam.

17 And to Adam He said:

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife

and have eaten from the tree
of which I commanded you not to eat,
cursed is the ground because of you;
through toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 Both thorns and thistles it will yield for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your bread,
until you return to the ground—
because out of it were you taken.
For dust you are,
and to dust you shall return.”

Nothing?

 

[Lees]

I will start with your last sentence first and see where it goes.

To be in Christ does not mean to not be in Adam. The only place where the phrase "in Adam" appears in scripture is 1 Corinthians 15:22. And there it is clear that the phrase "in Adam" signifies the entire human race. Therefore, it seems to me, that "in Adam" does not mean what you think it means and instead means the whole of mankind. And that suggests to me, that so much of what you put on Adam is likely false. There is no other significance of being a descendent of Adam than that of being human.

Of course being 'in Adam' means the whole human race. What did I say to make you think otherwise?

To be 'in Christ' most definitely places one out of Adam's race and into Christ. The whole human race 'in Christ' shall be made alive. The whole human race 'in Adam' all die.

How does one get 'in Adam'? How does one get 'in Christ'? Entrance into Adam's race is by being physically born of him. Entrance into Christ's race is by being born of God by the Spirit, which is only done by faith. You see? The birthing rooms are different. Therefore not all in Adam, are in Christ. But all in Christ used to be 'in Adam'.

I wouldn't be so dogmatic in your last statement, since you choose to ignore most of what I said.

Lees

 

[CrowCross]

To be in Christ does not mean to not be in Adam. The only place where the phrase "in Adam" appears in scripture is 1 Corinthians 15:22. And there it is clear that the phrase "in Adam" signifies the entire human race. Therefore, it seems to me, that "in Adam" does not mean what you think it means and instead means the whole of mankind. And that suggests to me, that so much of what you put on Adam is likely false. There is no other significance of being a descendent of Adam than that of being human.

Are you of the sect that says Adam was nothing more than an allegory?

 

[JIM]

17 And to Adam He said:

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife

and have eaten from the tree
of which I commanded you not to eat,
cursed is the ground because of you;
through toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 Both thorns and thistles it will yield for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your bread,
until you return to the ground—
because out of it were you taken.
For dust you are,
and to dust you shall return.”

Nothing?

That is what happened to him, not us. And that wasn't the worst part. He died spiritually due to his sin.

 

[JIM]

I wouldn't be so dogmatic in your last statement, since you choose to ignore most of what I said.

With good reason.

 

[JIM]

Are you of the sect that says Adam was nothing more than an allegory?

No.

 

[Lees]

With good reason.

A reason you choose not to reveal.

Lees

 

[CrowCross]

That is what happened to him, not us. And that wasn't the worst part. He died spiritually due to his sin.

Yes, it did happen to Adam....but...as mentioned above by Lees....
Romans 5:12 tells us...Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

How do you get around the Romans 5 verse?

Is the ground not cursed because of Adam?
Do humans not return to the dust as Gen 3 points out?
how do you get around the Gen 3 verse?

Will you still claim "Nothing happened because of Adam." despite what the bible says?

What sect teaches what you are presenting?

 

[JIM]

Yes, it did happen to Adam....but...as mentioned above by Lees....
Romans 5:12 tells us...Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

How do you get around the Romans 5 verse?

Is the ground not cursed because of Adam?
Do humans not return to the dust as Gen 3 points out?
how do you get around the Gen 3 verse?

Will you still claim "Nothing happened because of Adam." despite what the bible says?

What sect teaches what you are presenting?

It doesn't say that death spread to all men because Adam sinned. It says, death spread to all men because all sinned.

 

[JIM]

A reason you choose not to reveal.

Lees

Because it is mostly wrong.

 

[Arial]

It doesn't say that death spread to all men because Adam sinned. It says, death spread to all men because all sinned.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---

Sin came through one man
Death through sin
Death to all men
Because all men sinned

All men sin because sin came into the world because Adam sinned.

But here Paul begins a comparison that is not concluded until vv18-21.

Conclusion: 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came to increase the trespass, but where sin increased. grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness Leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now I know that you use these last verses to support the unbiblical claim that what it is saying is that yes Adam brought death into the world and sin but Jesus undid that for all men without exception on the cross, so now no one is born in sin (even though David said he was) and our sin has nothing to do with Adam.So you don't need to say it again. Let's just look at why it is an unsound doctrine caused by an isolated scripture and a confusion of Paul's usage of "many" and "all". Both of which he attaches to Adam and Christ.

We know, and I think you even agree, that all men are condemned because all sin, and Paul clearly states this is because of Adam. Juxtaposed against "one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" we know from scripture itself that not all men without exception are justified and have eternal life through the one man's righteousness. That all by itself is enough to know that Paul did not mean all men without exception. He later qualifies it as "the many". So the "all men" concerning Adam means all without exception, but it does not mean all without exception concerning Christ's work. It must mean all types of men without exception.

So what about "the many" referring to Adam? Many as the quantity that makes up the whole. "Many" as applied to Christ? Many as to the quantity that makes up the whole of those who are justified by his obedience, but not the whole of mankind without exception. Your interpretation of those passages turns what Paul was saying on its head. Utterly backwards.

 

[Arial]

I will start with your last sentence first and see where it goes.

To be in Christ does not mean to not be in Adam. The only place where the phrase "in Adam" appears in scripture is 1 Corinthians 15:22. And there it is clear that the phrase "in Adam" signifies the entire human race. Therefore, it seems to me, that "in Adam" does not mean what you think it means and instead means the whole of mankind. And that suggests to me, that so much of what you put on Adam is likely false. There is no other significance of being a descendent of Adam than that of being human.

Did Adam become a sinner? Since he is the first man and all men come from him, and Adam is a human, and we are humans; are not all humans then sinners just like Adam and because he is a sinner? Did he begin to bring children into the world before or after he became a sinner?

 

[Eleanor]

Nothing happened because of Adam.

"In Adam all die" (1 Co 15:22).

What part of Ro 5:12-17 or 1 Co 15:21-22 do you not understand?

See Ge 3:1-7.

 

[JIM]

All men sin because sin came into the world because Adam sinned.

That is not what it says.

 

[JIM]

Did Adam become a sinner? Since he is the first man and all men come from him, and Adam is a human, and we are humans; are not all humans then sinners just like Adam and because he is a sinner? Did he begin to bring children into the world before or after he became a sinner?

One more time. Adam became a sinner when he sinned. We, just like Adam, became sinners when we sinned.

 

[Eleanor]

One more time. Adam became a sinner when he sinned. We, just like Adam, became sinners when we sinned.

We are born sinners. . .by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), and we are born with our nature.

We sin because we are sinners, rather than we are sinners because we sin.

 

[Arial]

One more time. Adam became a sinner when he sinned. We, just like Adam, became sinners when we sinned.

One more time. Read @Eleanor 's post #39. Then support your position to the contrary with something besides an opinion. In much the same way as others have been doing for you in supporting their view. Otherwise it is just an argumentative approach to forums.