Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[brightfame52]

I meant what I said last post. Plenty of opportunity to cease the redundancy, define your terms, evidence them with scripture, and then discuss them was provided. I've no interest in ad nauseam.

Thats your best bet friend, man by nature is dead to God Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[Eleanor]

Oh, non, no, no. You don't get to change the subject and shift the onus in neglect of your own claims!!!

Prove Total Depravity is spiritual not moral. Use scripture, not personal opinion.

When you prove there is no gravity, which you did not claim, as I did not claim that depravity meant no unregenerate had any morals.

God Scripture for that?
Or clarify and amend the original statement so that it is accurate.

Or acknowledge there's no such basis for the claim and we can discard it and move on. with the subject at hand (whether or not TD is a misnomer).

Total depravity is unregenerate man's complete inability to do anything spiritual (of the Holy Spirit), starting with faith (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14).

 

[GeneZ]

I agree with what you said here but I think there might be a typo in the bit I bolded? Shouldn't that read "that does not guarantee..."?

Yes! That is why souls are held accountable when thrown into the Lake of Fire. Why? It was their own choice!

How did Lucifer choose? He chose initially from an unfallen state!

God brings us back to a parallel status that Satan had before he fell.
Demons witness to their own fall when God give grace to men to be made free to choose!

Please, drop the Calvinism as being an absolute. For Calvin was working with a theological hypothesis.

Grace makes us enabled when we are helpless, hopeless, and weak! Grace does not force us to to do something.

Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. " 2 Cor 12:8-9

God did not make us believe. God made us for the first time able to believe, by his power of grace enabling us!

Demons watch men and see themselves being reenacted in their rejection of God. For when God applies grace
when drawing a person? That person becomes a reenactment of what fallen angels did when they rejected the Lord!

In essence? God is causing fallen angels to become their own judge when witnessing the salvation call for men.
Demons become their own judge, when seeing with man's example, that God was just in condemning them.
For if men were not free to believe? God would be unjust for condemning the fallen angels! It would have been rigged otherwise.

God is "infinitely clever" in His getting those who walk in denial to finally face themselves.

With the pure you show yourself pure, And with the
crooked you show yourself astute/clever. Psalm 18:26

grace and peace ............

 

[Josheb]

When you prove there is no gravity, which you did not claim, as I did not claim that depravity meant no unregenerate had any morals.

Total depravity is unregenerate man's complete inability to do anything spiritual (of the Holy Spirit), starting with faith (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14).

Total depravity is unregenerate man's complete inability to do anything specifically related and limited to obtaining salvation. Nothing else.

 

[Eleanor]

Total depravity is unregenerate man's complete inability to do anything specifically related and limited to obtaining salvation. Nothing else.

Nothing else matters until one is saved through faith, for prior to that everyone is condemned (Ro 5:18).

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing else matters until one is saved through faith, for prior to that everyone is condemned (Ro 5:18).

The Elect are never damned/condemned, that would be an victory over Christ and His Work of the Cross who was condemned in their stead.

 

[Josheb]

Nothing else matters until one is saved through faith, for prior to that everyone is condemned (Ro 5:18).

Nothing else matters but the op.

Nearly everyone here has proved the point of the op (if not its content) correct. Nearly everyone argued a Total Depravity having nothing to do with the specifics of TD and thereby proved the misnomic nature of TD. Total Depravity does NOT mean utter depravity, but that is what most argue. The posts proved it.

 

[Eleanor]

The Elect are never damned/condemned,

Then they don't need to be saved. . .and yet they do.

that would be an victory over Christ and His Work of the Cross who was condemned in their stead.

You'll have to take that up with Paul (Ro 5:18).

 

[brightfame52]

Then they don't need to be saved. . .and yet they do.


You'll have to take that up with Paul (Ro 5:18).

You the one teaching error and disrespecting the death of Christ and not Paul.

 

[Eleanor]

You the one teaching error and disrespecting the death of Christ and not Paul.

Non-responsive. . .you didn't deal with Paul in Ro 5:18.

 

[Eleanor]

Nothing else matters but the op.

Nearly everyone here has proved the point of the op (if not its content) correct. Nearly everyone argued a Total Depravity having nothing to do with the specifics of TD and thereby proved the misnomic nature of TD. Total Depravity does NOT mean utter depravity, but that is what most argue. The posts proved it.

God has shut up the whole world in sin (Ro 3:19), with no way out.
Man is helpless, powerless against sin, hopeless to change or fix it, lost and shut out from God.
This is the utter depravity of man.

 

[Johan]

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." Rom 7:17-19
Outside of God's enabling grace? Our soul is a helpless slave to the sin nature.

I concur-

7:18 "I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh" Paul is not asserting that the physical body is evil, but that it was the battle ground between the fallen nature and God's Spirit. The Greeks held that the body, along with all matter, was evil. This developed into the dualistic heresy of Gnosticism (cf. Ephesians, Colossians and 1 John). The Greeks tended to blame "the physical" for spiritual problems. Paul does not view the spiritual conflict in these terms. He personified sin and used mankind's rebellion against God's Law as the opportunity for evil's invasion of human nature. The term "flesh" in Paul's writings can mean (1) the physical body which is morally neutral (cf. Rom. 1:3; 2:28; 4:1; 9:3,5) and (2) the fallen sin nature inherited from Adam (cf. Rom. 7:5). See Special Topic: Flesh (sarx) at Rom. 1:3.

7:20 "sin which dwells in me" It is interesting that the book of Romans so clearly shows humanity's sin, but there is no mention of Satan until 16:20. Humans cannot blame Satan for their sin problem. We have a choice. Sin is personified as a king, tyrant, slave owner. It tempts and lures us to independence from God, to self assertion at any cost. Paul's personification of sin linked to human choice reflects Gen. 4:7.

Paul uses the term "dwells" several times in this chapter (cf. Rom. 7:17,18,20). The sin nature is not destroyed or removed at salvation, but made potentially inoperative. Its continuing powerlessness depends on our cooperation with the indwelling Spirit (cf. Rom. 8:9,11).

God has provided for believers all that is necessary to combat personified (literary) and personal (Satan and the demonic) evil. It is the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. As we accept God's free gift of salvation, so too, we must accept God's gift of the effective deterrent of the Holy Spirit. Salvation and the Christian life are a daily process that begins and ends with believers' daily decisions. God has provided all that we need: the Spirit (Romans 8), spiritual armor (Eph. 6:11), revelation (Eph. 6:17), and prayer (Eph. 6:18).

The battle is fierce (Romans 7), but the battle is won (Romans 8).

Johann.

 

[Johan]

God has shut up the whole world in sin (Ro 3:19), with no way out.
Man is helpless, powerless against sin, hopeless to change or fix it, lost and shut out from God.
This is the utter depravity of man.

"the Law"

In this context it must refer to the whole OT (cf. Rom. 3:21) because of the non-Pentateuch passages quoted in Rom. 3:10-18. Paul personifies "the law" as he did "the sin" inv. 9 (cf. Rom. 6:16-23).

"to those who are under the Law"
This refers uniquely to Jews and Gentile converts. Although it must be said that several of the OT quotes used refer to Gentiles in their original contexts. All humans are sinful (cf. Rom. 3:23)!

NASB"that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God"
NKJV"that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God"
NRSV"so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be held accountable to God "
TEV"in order to stop all human excuses and bring the whole world under God's judgment"
NJB"but it is meant to silence everyone and to lay the whole world open to God's judgment"

This is the major theme of Rom. 1:18-3:20 which is summarized in Rom. 3:23.

"every mouth" There are several phrases in Rom. 3:19-20 which denote all humanity.

1. "every mouth," Rom. 3:19

2. "all the world," Rom. 3:19

3. "no flesh," Rom. 3:20



3:20 "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight" This is an allusion to Ps. 143:2 (also note Job 4:17; 9:2; 25:4; Ps. 130:3; Pro. 20:9; Eccl. 7:20; 1 Kgs. 8:46; 2 Chr. 6:36), but with an added opening phrase. This was a major aspect of Paul's gospel (cf. Gal. 2:16; 3:11). As a committed Pharisee, Paul uniquely knew the inability of religious enthusiasm and meticulous performance to provide inner peace.

For "flesh" see Special Topic at Rom. 1:3.



NASB, NRSV"through the Law comes the knowledge of sin"
NKJV"for by the law is the knowledge of sin"
TEV"what the Law does is to make man know that he has sinned"
NJB"all that law does is to tell us what is sinful"

This was one of the purposes of the OT. See Special Topic at Rom. 13:9. It was never meant to bring salvation to fallen mankind. Its purpose was to reveal sinfulness and drive all humans to the mercy of YHWH (cf. Rom. 4:15; 5:13,20; 7:7; Gal. 3:19-22, 23-29).
Utley

 

[GeneZ]

I concur-

7:18 "I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh" Paul is not asserting that the physical body is evil, but that it was the battle ground between the fallen nature and God's Spirit. The Greeks held that the body, along with all matter, was evil. This developed into the dualistic heresy of Gnosticism (cf. Ephesians, Colossians and 1 John). The Greeks tended to blame "the physical" for spiritual problems. Paul does not view the spiritual conflict in these terms. He personified sin and used mankind's rebellion against God's Law as the opportunity for evil's invasion of human nature. The term "flesh" in Paul's writings can mean (1) the physical body which is morally neutral (cf. Rom. 1:3; 2:28; 4:1; 9:3,5) and (2) the fallen sin nature inherited from Adam (cf. Rom. 7:5). See Special Topic: Flesh (sarx) at Rom. 1:3.

7:20 "sin which dwells in me" It is interesting that the book of Romans so clearly shows humanity's sin, but there is no mention of Satan until 16:20. Humans cannot blame Satan for their sin problem. We have a choice. Sin is personified as a king, tyrant, slave owner. It tempts and lures us to independence from God, to self assertion at any cost. Paul's personification of sin linked to human choice reflects Gen. 4:7.

Paul uses the term "dwells" several times in this chapter (cf. Rom. 7:17,18,20). The sin nature is not destroyed or removed at salvation, but made potentially inoperative. Its continuing powerlessness depends on our cooperation with the indwelling Spirit (cf. Rom. 8:9,11).

God has provided for believers all that is necessary to combat personified (literary) and personal (Satan and the demonic) evil. It is the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. As we accept God's free gift of salvation, so too, we must accept God's gift of the effective deterrent of the Holy Spirit. Salvation and the Christian life are a daily process that begins and ends with believers' daily decisions. God has provided all that we need: the Spirit (Romans 8), spiritual armor (Eph. 6:11), revelation (Eph. 6:17), and prayer (Eph. 6:18).

The battle is fierce (Romans 7), but the battle is won (Romans 8).

Johann.

Paul had a hard time showing certain gentile believers that our resurrection body will be a good thing.
For their cultural mind set saw flesh as intrinsically evil.

Yes...
Its not about flesh itself. For Adam and the woman before the fall had perfect flesh.

Its the sin nature which permeates the cells in the human body.

And, interestingly so.
The sin nature explains why the Lord declared the following in the Garden right after the fall..

And I will put enmity​

Between you and the woman,​

And between your seed and her Seed;​

He shall bruise your head,​

And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:15​

What was Satan's seed?

Once the sin nature became a reality?
Man's nature was transformed into manifesting the likeness of Satan's ways.
That is why the Lord called fallen mankind Satan's seed.
Unregenerate men are children of Satan in their life's expression.

As for the woman's seed?
That speaks of the female's ovum.
For God designated the ovum alone to be free of the genetic defect of the sin nature.
The sin nature is passed down through the male sperm...
That is why Jesus could not have a biological human father.

For Jesus the Holy Spirit provided the needed perfect genetic material needed to fertilize the ovum of Mary.
In that way Jesus was to be born without a sin nature.

grace and peace!