Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[Red Baker]

Thanks for the update. I have yet to hear from a friend in Canton, NC. Outside Asheville.

Major problems for the Canton area and beyond. Parts of I-40 is missing due to landside and some people missing.

Asking folks to stay off of the roads ~ schools closed and many businesses.

Hurricane Helene leaves over 100 dead, millions without power in the Southeastern U.S. Here's what we know and what to expect next.

Helene’s trail of destruction and record-breaking floods could rank among the costliest storms in U.S. history.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Red Baker]

The image of God in which Adam was created was in his spirit, not in his flesh. The image of Adam in which his son was born was in his flesh, not in his spirit.

Jim, I never said that Adam and Eve were created in their flesh after the image of God.

We can only know what it means to be created after God's image, by knowing what the new birth is. It is a creation after God's image in wisdom, knowledge and understanding; nothing changes in our flesh; it is all inward, not one thing outwardly, even though it can be seen by outward deeds coming from a new heart/spirit/mind.

Ephesians 4:22-24~"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Colossians 3:10​

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”

When our first parents sinned they lost God's image; no longer did they possesses (spiritual) knowledge, understanding and wisdom, and the righteousness in which they were created with. They were not created with sin in their members as we are born with! Your verse you quoted:

John 3:6​

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

"that which is born of the flesh is flesh." Here "the flesh" is the name given to human nature as fallen—it must not be restricted to the body (as in a few passages it is)~but understood (as generally in the New Testament) of the entire human constitution. In affirming, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh," Christ reiterated the basic and unchanging principle—repeated no less than nine times in Genesis 1—that every creature brings forth "after its kind." The quality of the fruit~is determined by the nature of the tree which bears it: an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Man's fallen nature cannot yield that which is sinless, from birth~and neither can it please God without God giving them another nature after his image. No matter how much fallen man may be educated, civilized, or religionized, in his natural state he cannot produce that which is acceptable to the thrice holy God. In order to that he must be born again—a new and sinless nature imparted to him.​

Ephesians 4:22​

“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, (flesh) which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;”

Romans 8:8​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

"But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." A new, a spiritual life is communicated, from which the grand moral change in its subject proceeds. This communication of Divine life to the soul is viewed in the New Testament under various figures.​

 

[JIM]

Jim, I never said that Adam and Eve were created in their flesh after the image of God.

We can only know what it means to be created after God's image, by knowing what the new birth is. It is a creation after God's image in wisdom, knowledge and understanding; nothing changes in our flesh; it is all inward, not one thing outwardly, even though it can be seen by outward deeds coming from a new heart/spirit/mind.

Colossians 3:10​

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”

When our first parents sinned they lost God's image; no longer did they possesses (spiritual) knowledge, understanding and wisdom, and the righteousness in which they were created with. They were not created with sin in their members as we are born with! Your verse you quoted:

John 3:6​

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

"that which is born of the flesh is flesh." Here "the flesh" is the name given to human nature as fallen—it must not be restricted to the body (as in a few passages it is)~but understood (as generally in the New Testament) of the entire human constitution. In affirming, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh," Christ reiterated the basic and unchanging principle—repeated no less than nine times in Genesis 1—that every creature brings forth "after its kind." The quality of the fruit~is determined by the nature of the tree which bears it: an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Man's fallen nature cannot yield that which is sinless, from birth~and neither can it please God without God giving them another nature after his image. No matter how much fallen man may be educated, civilized, or religionized, in his natural state he cannot produce that which is acceptable to the thrice holy God. In order to that he must be born again—a new and sinless nature imparted to him.​

Ephesians 4:22​

“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, (flesh) which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;”

Romans 8:8​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

"But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." A new, a spiritual life is communicated, from which the grand moral change in its subject proceeds. This communication of Divine life to the soul is viewed in the New Testament under various figures.​

Red, you are giving me traducianism. That is false. No "flesh" is not the name given to human nature as fallen. First of all, "flesh" as translated is always and only from the Greek word "sarx". It occurs about 150 times in the KJV NT. The meaning in the Greek can range from the flesh or meat of an animal to simply a human being. As it occurs in the NT, it is more often used to mean simply a human being. Often does mean the human being, the sinner.

There is no denying that the natural tendency of human beings is gratify the desires and passions of the physical body. I would point out, something you already know, that the natural tendency does not change in being born again. What does change is that in being born again, in regeneration, the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is given to help the regenerate to fight against the gratifying of such desires and passions as are antithetical to God and God's law.

The spiritual condition of the procreated offspring of man is unaffected by the spiritual condition of the man himself, either before or after being born again. That is a fact. And there is absolutely nothing in scripture that says otherwise. Your explanation of John 3:6 stands in direct opposition to that fact.

I really despise the phrase "fallen man" or "fallen humanity" or "the fall". Such phrases are not found in scripture. It is a construct born out of a particular theological position. John 3:6 is simply the very direct statement that the body of the offspring of man comes from the body of man and the spirit of the offspring of man comes from God -- flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets spirit.

Flesh does not beget spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, you are giving me traducianism. That is false.

Good morning Jim,

The two camps of this thought:

Creationism:
John Calvin
Francis Turretin
Charles Hodge
A.A. Hodge
Louis Berkhof

Augustine (according to Berkhof hesitated to choose)

Traducianism:
Tertullian
Martin Luther
Jonathan Edwards
Ezekiel Hopkins
W.G.T. Shedd
Augustus Strong
Gordon H. Clark

I think each has its own truth, each has its own errors. So many points to consider, before making a judgement on what is true, what is false. I see problems on both sides of the issues. What first needs to be determine is what is the different between soul and spirit of man; plus, does God still create sinless soul, or spirits, ( if there is a different between the two and I believe there is) or is this passed down through the male to the children~which I believe it is~thus Christ's father was God, not through Adam. But this subject needs time to be consider and proven. I think it is in the right thread to consider along with the depravity of man

I do not have time at the moment to even consider the discussion, since we are still dealing with the hurricane mess here, making arrangements for our loved ones and friends to stay with us and use our internet, and power, and provide food, baths, etc. I'm looking at my daughter's mother in law sleeping on my recliner since she's on an oxygen tank and sleeps better semi-vertical. Got to do what you must do to help folks.

 

[Red Baker]

Major problems for the Canton area and beyond. Parts of I-40 is missing due to landside and some people missing.

Asking folks to stay off of the roads ~ schools closed and many businesses.

Hurricane Helene leaves over 100 dead, millions without power in the Southeastern U.S. Here's what we know and what to expect next.

Helene’s trail of destruction and record-breaking floods could rank among the costliest storms in U.S. history.

news.yahoo.com

Listening to the local news yesterday, and they said at least 600 people are still missing in the Asheville area . We are about an hour drive down from Asheville.

Hurricane Helene by the numbers: Catastrophic destruction covers 400 miles

After making landfall in Florida's Big Bend region Thursday night as a major Category 4 hurricane, Helene has caused catastrophic storm surge, wind damage and inland flooding across a wide swath of the South. Helene was the strongest hurricane to make landfall in the Big Bend region on record...

news.yahoo.com

 

[Mr GLee]

Good morning Jim,

The two camps of this thought:

Creationism:
John Calvin
Francis Turretin
Charles Hodge
A.A. Hodge
Louis Berkhof

Augustine (according to Berkhof hesitated to choose)

Traducianism:
Tertullian
Martin Luther
Jonathan Edwards
Ezekiel Hopkins
W.G.T. Shedd
Augustus Strong
Gordon H. Clark

I think each has its own truth, each has its own errors. So many points to consider, before making a judgement on what is true, what is false. I see problems on both sides of the issues. What first needs to be determine is what is the different between soul and spirit of man; plus, does God still create sinless soul, or spirits, ( if there is a different between the two and I believe there is) or is this passed down through the male to the children~which I believe it is~thus Christ's father was God, not through Adam. But this subject needs time to be consider and proven. I think it is in the right thread to consider along with the depravity of man

I do not have time at the moment to even consider the discussion, since we are still dealing with the hurricane mess here, making arrangements for our loved ones and friends to stay with us and use our internet, and power, and provide food, baths, etc. I'm looking at my daughter's mother in law sleeping on my recliner since she's on an oxygen tank and sleeps better semi-vertical. Got to do what you must do to help folks.

Traducianism: new word

Why would it be necessary to separate the soul from the spirit and not that they both work together as one thing?

Sin has no DNA that can be passed down. The soul that sins his/hers spirit dies.

Soul would seem to represent our connection with God not seen as well as each other seen . Christians soul brothers and sisters .

They call no man on earth Holy Father

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[Red Baker]

This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed. It has nothing to do with our will---at all. It is purely by the grace of God that any can be saved.

I may spend the day reading through this thread. I believe you did a good job overall to simplified this truth ~I would been even more dogmatic, and paint man as the word of God declares him to be~at enmity against God, not just one who is an enemy, which is bad enough, but one that is at constant war against the God who created all things for himself and his glory, even man, who thinks he is above anything including God.

If "Total Depravity" includes actually doing some good things, what is it called when one does not do some good things? (I ask as one using ordinary language, not Calvinist charged terms).

The truth is, man cannot even have one good, spiritual thought, based upon how God's law judges that which is good, holy and spiritual ~ not on how man judges that which is good, holy, and spiritual. Man calls light darkness, and good evil, and evil good!

Isaiah 5:20​

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

We see and hear of this every single day.

Later, let me do some reading....

 

[JIM]

I may spend the day reading through this thread. I believe you did a good job overall to simplified this truth ~I would been even more dogmatic, and paint man as the word of God declares him to be~at enmity against God, not just one who is an enemy, which is bad enough, but one that is at constant war against the God who created all things for himself and his glory, even man, who thinks he is above anything including God.

If a person would live his entire life in total and absolute obedience to God except for one single occasion, he would be at enmity against God.

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

That is what James tells us. Please note that it would be only in that one sin that makes him not good. That does not mean that everything else that he did was not good and acceptable by God. It does not mean that everything else he did was a sin.

The truth is, man cannot even have one good, spiritual thought, based upon how God law judges that which is good, holy and spiritual ~ not on how man judges that which is good, holy, and spiritual.

That is completely false. An act of disobedience does not change an act of obedience. It does change the man's standing with God. But it does not make all acts bad or not good. It makes the man no longer perfect, and hence not "good" in the sense of perfectly good.

Man calls light darkness light, and good. evil, and evil good!

That is not what Isaiah 5:20 says. It says woe to those who do.

 

[Mr GLee]

Well---in your interpretation Paul is only talking about himself and the other apostles. In which case he would be teaching something to his audience that they could not understand. It would also be saying that only the apostles are given the Holy Spirit for the work that Christ assigned them to. According to my interpretation Paul is writing to those who can understand because they have been regenerated and are in Christ in faith, and do have the Holy Spirit. So he is saying it is those who have not been regenerated, who are not in Christ, and do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit who cannot understand the things he is saying or anything else that is spiritual (outside the natural.)

Amen.

Its Christ working in us working to both will and strengthen dying mankind with the food of Christ will.. Not of the apostles/disciple they are considered as nothing .

God is not served by the dying hands of mankind .

Simple for Him . "Let there be " and the Powerful work of Faith "it was good"

The apostles had no idea of the strength of the living word or daily bread in the parable

John 4:33-35King James VersionTherefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[makesends]

I may spend the day reading through this thread. I believe you did a good job overall to simplified this truth ~I would been even more dogmatic, and paint man as the word of God declares him to be~at enmity against God, not just one who is an enemy, which is bad enough, but one that is at constant war against the God who created all things for himself and his glory, even man, who thinks he is above anything including God.


The truth is, man cannot even have one good, spiritual thought, based upon how God's law judges that which is good, holy and spiritual ~ not on how man judges that which is good, holy, and spiritual. Man calls light darkness, and good evil, and evil good!

Isaiah 5:20​

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

We see and hear of this every single day.

Later, let me do some reading....

Amen all that, but there is also, in what I think @Arial was getting at, that for anyone to do anything of necessity implies action by God. We are not even beings, apart from God's decree. So how can anyone do anything good, or anything at all, unless God establishes it?

 

[makesends]

Red Baker said:
Man calls light darkness light, and good. evil, and evil good!

That is not what Isaiah 5:20 says. It says woe to those who do.

It fits what Isaiah 5:20 says very well! Woe to man! Romans 9 agrees. Man, apart from being made new, gets it all backwards, and ON PURPOSE!

 

[brightfame52]

Mans total depravity is due to the fact, being born a fallen sinner, he is a slave to the devil, he has a nature that is under the control of the devil, hence its a nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2;Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Those words "according to" denote power, in agreement with the greek word kata:

according to anything as a standard, agreeably to: or conformity

Also we see the nature is controlled by " the spirit working in them" =(a spirit) that comes from the devil), Ephesians 2:2

Be advised there is no Gospel obedience in this nature, impossible ! Depravity

 

[Josheb]

Mans total depravity is due to the fact, being born a fallen sinner, he is a slave to the devil, he has a nature that is under the control of the devil, hence its a nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

Minor correction: The devil is a slave to sin, just like humans. We are all slaves to sin, not the devil. Nowhere do the scriptures state we're slaves of a slave, the devil. Having a bad demonology leads to other problems in other doctrines. The devil is not a free agent. He does only what he is either directed to do or what he is permitted to do, and all of his thoughts, decisions, and actions are tainted by the exact same despotic sin as our own. The devil is controlled by the nature of disobedience, too.

Besides, he does not need to control anyone because sinners readily sin without any help.

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

Minor correction: The devil is a slave to sin, just like humans.

Not concerned about the devil being a slave, however men became his slaves through the sin of Adam, and are possessed by a devil spirit of disobedience ! Eh 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

No Gospel obedience in that nature

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb



Not concerned about the devil being a slave, however men became his slaves through the sin of Adam, and are possessed by a devil spirit of disobedience ! Eh 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

No Gospel obedience in that nature

Did the devil sin?

 

[David Lamb]

Minor correction: The devil is a slave to sin, just like humans. We are all slaves to sin, not the devil. Nowhere do the scriptures state we're slaves of a slave, the devil. Having a bad demonology leads to other problems in other doctrines. The devil is not a free agent. He does only what he is either directed to do or what he is permitted to do, and all of his thoughts, decisions, and actions are tainted by the exact same despotic sin as our own. The devil is controlled by the nature of disobedience, too.

Besides, he does not need to control anyone because sinners readily sin without any help.

I am trying in vain to think where in the bible we are told that the devil is a a slave. Maybe I am missing something obvious. Can you help by giving a bible reference for what you wrote? Thanks!

 

[Josheb]

I am trying in vain to think where in the bible we are told that the devil is a a slave. Maybe I am missing something obvious. Can you help by giving a bible reference for what you wrote? Thanks!

Did the devil sin?

 

[Lees]

Did the devil sin?

Did he? When?

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

Did the devil sin?

Why the obsession with the devil ? What does scripture say ?

 

[Mr GLee]

Did he? When?

Lees

Adding to the word of God.