THE PURPOSE OF TONGUES IN THE ASSEMBLY

[Lees]

Hi Lees, you said..."Because the gift of miracles is a special gift given to some. But all the gifts are miraculous."

The contradiction was that you said miracles were unique (special) and given to some, and then you said that all the gifts are miracles, thus removing the uniqueness because all believers have gifts.



My evidence was from the Bible. I'll ask you again, (Paul asked these same questions in the Bible, 1 Cor. 4:7) what do you have that is good, that you did not receive from God? And if you did receive it from God, why do you not see it as a gift? My point is simple. The lists of gifts are not a list of super powers. They could be miraculous at one time, but, even then, were mostly very practical.

The rest is getting a bit redundant. I don't think that our repeating ourselves over and over will change anything.

Dave

No contradiction. All the gifts are miraculous. But some are given the gift of 'miracles'. As I said before, some have the gift of evangelism. But we are all to do the work of the evangelist. (Eph. 4:11) (2 Tim. 4:5)

The gifts of the Spirit are unique. Whether they be tongues, miracles, healing or whatever. They are from the Holy Ghost to the individual believer. It is where the individual believer excels in the Body of Christ.

Your evidence ignores (Rom. 12:3-8), (1 Cor. 12-14), (Eph. 4:7-16).

(1 Cor. 4:7) says nothing about 'spiritual gifts'. Gee, so you say spiritual gifts 'could be miraculous'? Like you don't want to admit. You then say they were mostly 'practical'. Which takes away from their being 'miraculous'. If they were so 'practical' why are you against them?

Show me the 'practical' with the various 'spiritual gifts'.

That's fine, you are not required to answer. I would like to hear your answer to (John 5:1-9). Why did Jesus just heal one, when so many needed healing?

Lees

 

[Arial]

I am not so sure. No doubt understanding what was said in ones language did occur. But that seems to occur due to the 'hearing'. (Acst 2:6) "...and every man heard them speak in his own language." (Acts 2:8) "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherin we were born? (Acts 2:11) "...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

Acts 2:8 tells us that it was their own language. But if that is not enough.

Strong's Lexicon
glóssa: Tongue, Language
Original Word: γλῶσσα
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Pronunciation: GLOHS-sah
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Definition: Tongue, Language
Meaning: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Whether the event was men speaking in different languages or whether what was said in one language was heard in a person's native language imo is not worth debating. The message is the same.

The ones speaking in tongues were many of the disciples, including some of the believing women, including Mary and Christ's brothers. (Acts 1:13-14) And "they were all with one accord in one place." (Acts 2:1) "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them." (Acts 2:3) "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2:4)

It just seems strange to me that so many disciples, if speaking various languages at the same time, that anyone could make heads or tails out of what any were saying. But if the Lord gave them tongues to speak which were not known language but was miraculously understood by those there at Pentecost, no matter what language they spoke, it seems to me there would have been more order and the ability to hear.

It would still be a whole bunch of people all speaking at the same time. But the word translated tongues means languages and it did to those who translated it as tongues. Why would it take some not known language. Maybe it was the ability to hear but what difference does that make?

Then you have another group there who represent the unbelieving. And what was their response? "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine." (Acts 2:13) In other words they accused them of being drunk. I don't see how speaking another known language would produce this kind of reaction. As a result, their ears were not opened. But if they, the disciples, spoke in an unknown language or tongue given them by God, and they, those who mocked, just heard it as drunken gibberesh, because their ears were not opened, then their response makes more sense to me.

A language that is foreign to a person always sounds like gibberish. You are reading to much into it and perhaps missing the point. We only have the words that are written in our Bibles. None of us were there. We cannot imagine what it actually looked and sounded like or even how it was being done.

 

[Lees]

Acts 2:8 tells us that it was their own language. But if that is not enough.

Strong's Lexicon
glóssa: Tongue, Language
Original Word: γλῶσσα
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Pronunciation: GLOHS-sah
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Definition: Tongue, Language
Meaning: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Whether the event was men speaking in different languages or whether what was said in one language was heard in a person's native language imo is not worth debating. The message is the same.

It would still be a whole bunch of people all speaking at the same time. But the word translated tongues means languages and it did to those who translated it as tongues. Why would it take some not known language. Maybe it was the ability to hear but what difference does that make?

A language that is foreign to a person always sounds like gibberish. You are reading to much into it and perhaps missing the point. We only have the words that are written in our Bibles. None of us were there. We cannot imagine what it actually looked and sounded like or even how it was being done.

Yes...perhaps.

Lees

 

[Dave]

No contradiction. All the gifts are miraculous. But some are given the gift of 'miracles'. As I said before, some have the gift of evangelism. But we are all to do the work of the evangelist. (Eph. 4:11) (2 Tim. 4:5)

OK. I'll trust the readers can see it and leave it at that.

Your evidence ignores (Rom. 12:3-8), (1 Cor. 12-14), (Eph. 4:7-16).

Lees, because you interpret every passage on an island, you are failing to see that those passages actually support what I've been saying. Here's the first one, which is enough.

For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Which one would you attribute to self seeking? Are any of these gifts that are listed miraculous? Nope. Still, they are all gifts from God. None of us would be capable of doing these things listed with a pure heart, and the right motives, meaning not tainted by sin somehow, without God giving that to us. Those same acts from the flesh are sin. No matter how good they appear on the outside, somewhere, somehow, they're tainted by sin. The acts that aren't tainted by sin, are given to us by God. The fruit of the Spirit. That's what the gifts are. If you fail to see that, which most, if not all Pentecostals and Charismatics do, then it is you who are denying the gifts, not me. As I said, you'll only see God in miracles, so you need to make everything into a miracle.

We are like a lamp that needs to be plugged into God to produce light (by metaphor), which means good. When we are not plugged in, it's a false light, so to speak. Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. It's a simple thing, but also very offensive to the flesh.

(1 Cor. 4:7) says nothing about 'spiritual gifts'. Gee, so you say spiritual gifts 'could be miraculous'? Like you don't want to admit. You then say they were mostly 'practical'. Which takes away from their being 'miraculous'. If they were so 'practical' why are you against them?

If you could please humor me and answer the question.

What do you have that is good, that you did not receive from God? And if you did receive it from God, why do you not see it as a gift?

Show me the 'practical' with the various 'spiritual gifts'.

In the passage quoted above from Romans that you quoted to me. Those are all practical gifts, yet all gifts from God.

Dave

 

[Lees]

OK. I'll trust the readers can see it and leave it at that.


Lees, because you interpret every passage on an island, you are failing to see that those passages actually support what I've been saying. Here's the first one, which is enough.

For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Which one would you attribute to self seeking? Are any of these gifts that are listed miraculous? Nope. Still, they are all gifts from God. None of us would be capable of doing these things listed with a pure heart, and the right motives, meaning not tainted by sin somehow, without God giving that to us. Those same acts from the flesh are sin. No matter how good they appear on the outside, somewhere, somehow, they're tainted by sin. The acts that aren't tainted by sin, are given to us by God. The fruit of the Spirit. That's what the gifts are. If you fail to see that, which most, if not all Pentecostals and Charismatics do, then it is you who are denying the gifts, not me. As I said, you'll only see God in miracles, so you need to make everything into a miracle.

We are like a lamp that needs to be plugged into God to produce light (by metaphor), which means good. When we are not plugged in, it's a false light, so to speak. Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. It's a simple thing, but also very offensive to the flesh.


If you could please humor me and answer the question.

What do you have that is good, that you did not receive from God? And if you did receive it from God, why do you not see it as a gift?



In the passage quoted above from Romans that you quoted to me. Those are all practical gifts, yet all gifts from God.

Dave

In other words, you have nothing to refute that the gift of miracles is a special gift given to the Body of Christ. And that all gifts are miraculous by nature because they are of God.

My 'island' is the Bible.

You say, 'here is the first one, which is enough'. Yet you don't give the Scripture reference. Why? Are you hiding something?

Nice speech with the 'lamp'. Means nothing without Scripture.

Of course, any thing I have from God is good. That doesn't mean everything I have from God is a 'spritual gift'. The Spiritual gifts are 'specific' and laid out in the Scriptures I gave you. (Rom. 12:3-8) (1 Cor. 12-14) (Eph. 4:7-16) And (1 Cor. 4:7) says nothing about 'spiritual gifts'.

Oh?... you say the (Romans) passages I gave you is all practicle. Then you agree that the believers have different gifts from the Holy Ghost in accordance to their ministry towards the Body of Christ. (Rom. 12:6) "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given us...."

Do you agree?

Lees

 

[Arial]

In other words, you have nothing to refute that the gift of miracles is a special gift given to the Body of Christ. And that all gifts are miraculous by nature because they are of God

Everything is of God. Is there any record internal to Scripture that miracles were performed by any but the apostles? Or that it was a regular occurrence in the first century church?

We do have this:


Hebrews 2:3-4, "This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard Him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders, and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will."

 

[Lees]

Everything is of God. Is there any record internal to Scripture that miracles were performed by any but the apostles? Or that it was a regular occurrence in the first century church?

We do have this:


Hebrews 2:3-4, "This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard Him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders, and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will."

Well,...yes...hard to argue against that.

Stephen was not an apostle, but did miracles. (Acts 6:8) And though it is not said that Phillip did miracle, he is associated with Stephan and definitely was involved in the miraculous. (Acts 6:5) (Acts 8:26-39)

Concerning (Heb. 2;3-4): And what is that supposed to mean.?

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

No contradiction. All the gifts are miraculous. But some are given the gift of 'miracles'. As I said before, some have the gift of evangelism. But we are all to do the work of the evangelist. (Eph. 4:11) (2 Tim. 4:5)

The gifts of the Spirit are unique. Whether they be tongues, miracles, healing or whatever. They are from the Holy Ghost to the individual believer. It is where the individual believer excels in the Body of Christ.

Your evidence ignores (Rom. 12:3-8), (1 Cor. 12-14), (Eph. 4:7-16).

(1 Cor. 4:7) says nothing about 'spiritual gifts'. Gee, so you say spiritual gifts 'could be miraculous'? Like you don't want to admit. You then say they were mostly 'practical'. Which takes away from their being 'miraculous'. If they were so 'practical' why are you against them?

Show me the 'practical' with the various 'spiritual gifts'.

Spiritual gifts in all practicality are gifts not seen with the eye. Gifts that work from within those born again. Therefore spiritual, spirit. invisible.

Powerfully ."Let there be". . not made up of the rudiments of this dying creation

Those of the world have no spiritual understanding like Chrsitin as coming from within temples of God (Christ in us working with us ) When they literally see laying on of hands (a form of prayer) Seeing their believe is accredited the power to the father of lies the king of mythology Roman and Greek his and hers gods today called patron saints

Acts14:7-14And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

 

[Dave]

You say, 'here is the first one, which is enough'. Yet you don't give the Scripture reference. Why? Are you hiding something?

Hi Lees,

It would be the first one that you quoted. Romans 12:3-8. I'm guessing that you that you figured as you were writing by your quote later in that same post when you said...

Oh?... you say the (Romans) passages I gave you is all practicle.

Nice speech with the 'lamp'. Means nothing without Scripture.

The one in the 'gift of healing' thread, If you read the passage that you referred to when you asked me the question, you'll see that most everything came from that passage. The rest was drawn from that context of the whole Bible. Likewise, to answer another question, 1 Corinthians 4:7 is included.

Of course, any thing I have from God is good. That doesn't mean everything I have from God is a 'spiritual gift'.

Yes, it actually does. What else would you call it? That's Paul's point also.

Then you agree that the believers have different gifts from the Holy Ghost in accordance to their ministry towards the Body of Christ. (Rom. 12:6) "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given us...."

Do you agree?

Lees

Yes, believers are all gifted. Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

Dave

 

[Lees]

Yes, it actually does. What else would you call it? That's Paul's point also.


Yes, believers are all gifted. Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

Dave

No, actually, it does not. No, Paul's point is that there are distinct 'spiritual gifts' given to every believer to exercise in the course of their ministry to the Body of Christ. Again, (Rom. 12:6) "Having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith"

No, you don't agree. What you are calling 'gifts' are not what Paul calls the 'spiritual gifts'. And you must force your twisted view of gifts upon Paul in order to deny them. And you do deny them.

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

Well,...yes...hard to argue against that.

Stephen was not an apostle, but did miracles. (Acts 6:8) And though it is not said that Phillip did miracle, he is associated with Stephan and definitely was involved in the miraculous. (Acts 6:5) (Acts 8:26-39)

Concerning (Heb. 2;3-4): And what is that supposed to mean.?

Lees

All believers are apostles sent messengers UPS Pony Express etc Still sends them out two by two (two the one witness God not seen has spoke

The faith or work of God's labor of love

Believers cannot perform miracles.

They have no "let there be" and "it was God alone good power"

They can outwardly "demonstrate" the unseen eternal power of Christ living words they are spirit life giving


Acts14:7-12 And there they preached the gospel. (the power of our invisible God unto salvation) And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: (prophecy tongues)who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith (power of God) to be healed, Said with a loud voice, (prophesied )Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw (with their own eyes)what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

Signs as metaphors used in parables follow, follow prophecy or called tongues. They never lead in endless wonderment as lying signs Limbo purgatory) to wonder, wonder after as if it wat the tongue or living word (sola scriptura).

The key follow the prophecy called tongues

Mark 16:19-20So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (prophecy gospel )They shall take up serpents; (false apostles ) and if they drink any deadly thing,(false prophecy it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, (pray) and they shall recover.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

All believers are apostles sent messengers UPS Pony Express etc Still sends them out two by two (two the one witness God not seen has spoke

The faith or work of God's labor of love

Believers cannot perform miracles.

They have no "let there be" and "it was God alone good power"

They can outwardly "demonstrate" the unseen eternal power of Christ living words they are spirit life giving


Acts14:7-12 And there they preached the gospel. (the power of our invisible God unto salvation) And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: (prophecy tongues)who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith (power of God) to be healed, Said with a loud voice, (prophesied )Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw (with their own eyes)what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

Signs as metaphors used in parables follow, follow prophecy or called tongues. They never lead in endless wonderment as lying signs Limbo purgatory) to wonder, wonder after as if it wat the tongue or living word (sola scriptura).

The key follow the prophecy called tongues

Mark 16:19-20So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (prophecy gospel )They shall take up serpents; (false apostles ) and if they drink any deadly thing,(false prophecy it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, (pray) and they shall recover.

I am really trying to understand this.

 

[Mr GLee]

I am really trying to understand this.

Thanks, I would offer the word spirit or spiritual is where much confusion comes in some using it as an outward sign as a gift. I did it, it proves it

It takes away the unseen faithful power working behind the gift .

Aaron two sons added to the word of God violating the warning not to add or subtract with what is called strange fire . Like satin adding neither shall you touch. the fall false pride

The kind of fire that consumed both sons and not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial attire. The gospel ceremonial sign to the whole world. Not unto themselves

Spiritual gift invisible to the eye works from Christ within

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him

Can you see that tongues which I call prophecy is against and not in support of a law which is not subject to change that law has its foundation in Isiah 28. it must be first understood

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues (dialects) and other lips (manners) will I speak unto this people; (dead in trespass an sin) and yet for all that will they (dead in trespass an sin) not hear me, saith the Lord Wherefore tongues (prophecy) are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[Dave]

No, actually, it does not. No, Paul's point is that there are distinct 'spiritual gifts' given to every believer to exercise in the course of their ministry to the Body of Christ. Again, (Rom. 12:6) "Having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith"

No, you don't agree. What you are calling 'gifts' are not what Paul calls the 'spiritual gifts'. And you must force your twisted view of gifts upon Paul in order to deny them. And you do deny them.

Lees

Ok Lees.