Tongues in the NT Church

[Arial]

@STAND

I began my Christianity in 1983 in tongues speaking Charismatic, non denominational churches. At the time there was a "movement" of the use of the phrase "born again Christians". Within those churches I attended it was taught that the dead churches were the denominational churches who had a form of godliness but denied the power thereof, and that those denominations had congregants who were Christians, but were not born again Christians. This of course lacks any apparent knowledge or understanding of the biblical use of born again.(John 3:1-15)

The power became in these churches, displays of tongue speaking, miracles, healings, and frankly, displays of emotion, some of which are so opposed to Bible teaching as to verge on the blasphemous. Such as falling backwards, by the touching of or waving of the hand of a preacher over a person, barking like dogs (which I have witnessed) uncontrolled laughter, spasms, etc.) It is thought that speaking in tongues invites the Holy Spirit to manifest. Some congregations are more radical and uncontrolled than others, but is any of it biblical?

I myself, had an uneasy feeling about it but being new to Christianity, and therefore took their word for it, for indeed they would use scripture to justify what was going on. There was no actual teaching of Scripture or doctrine or even theology. But there came a time when internally I did not believe what I was seeing and hearing. At the same time, there was a desire not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and I had to know, from the Bible, if these things concerning tongues, miracles and healings, signs and wonders, were not true, why they were not.

And this is what I found.

In the gospels we see Jesus performing miracles and forgiving sins. And there is no mention of speaking in tongues in the gospels. We see tongues first appear in Acts 2:1-13 when the day of Pentecost arrived. At that time, Peter stood up and explained what was happening by interpreting it through Joel. (verses 14-21) Then in verses 22-23 he tells us why Jesus performed miracles. "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth,, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know---this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

In 2 Cor 12:12 we read The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. Paul is saying this because his apostleship had come into question. We see here that the signs and wonders and miracles were serving the same purpose in the apostleship and they did in Christ's ministry. With Jesus, they showed who He is, Son of God, and His absolute authority in all He said. In the apostles it verified their authority in laying the foundational teachings of Christ's church. It verified the truthfulness of their word. This was necessary as Christianity was birthed and the gospel spread. It was gifted to the apostolic church because it was needed. It is no longer needed for the foundation is laid, not to be built upon any other foundation, the book closed. We have all the verification needed within its pages. That is not to say that God has ceased all miracles and no longer heals, but it is a matter of asking in prayer, not demanding, and with a willingness to submit to His will. And it is not a common function within the church as it is treated by Charismatics and faith healers. That in essence is asking for a sign as though His word were not enough.

So what about tongues? That too was a sign. At Pentecost it is clear that it was actual languages that were being spoken. Acts 2:5-8 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own language?"

Pentecost is the Greek name for the Jewish festival Shavout, in which all Jewish males were required to observe this festival at the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. In the dispersion they were scattered over many lands, so there were many different languages and dialects spoken by the Jews of that day. The languages were given so that all could hear the gospel and they in turn carried it back to their homes.

Churches were being established in these different places, particularly by Paul who was appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles, and were in Gentile lands. Therefore that same gift was needed. In addition to this, the fact that the gospel was being spoken in Gentile languages indicated that salvation by grace through faith was given to all, not just Jews. We see this explicitly stated in Acts 10:34-44. Speaking in tongues (languages) was a sign that the New Covenant was for all nations, and it was necessary for it to be visible. That is no longer necessary because we have all the evidence within the pages of our Bible, and the Bible itself translated into many languages. In addition there is internal evidence within the Bible that the "sign" gifts, tongues and signs and wonders, were passing away even within the lifetime of the Apostles. Aside from Acts and 2 Cor tongues is not mentioned.

There is much more to be explored, particularly some things that are said in Cor. but I will leave that for questions or comments, if there are any.

 

[STAND]

@STAND

I began my Christianity in 1983 in tongues speaking Charismatic, non denominational churches. At the time there was a "movement" of the use of the phrase "born again Christians". Within those churches I attended it was taught that the dead churches were the denominational churches who had a form of godliness but denied the power thereof, and that those denominations had congregants who were Christians, but were not born again Christians. This of course lacks any apparent knowledge or understanding of the biblical use of born again.(John 3:1-15)

The power became in these churches, displays of tongue speaking, miracles, healings, and frankly, displays of emotion, some of which are so opposed to Bible teaching as to verge on the blasphemous. Such as falling backwards, by the touching of or waving of the hand of a preacher over a person, barking like dogs (which I have witnessed) uncontrolled laughter, spasms, etc.) It is thought that speaking in tongues invites the Holy Spirit to manifest. Some congregations are more radical and uncontrolled than others, but is any of it biblical?

I myself, had an uneasy feeling about it but being new to Christianity, and therefore took their word for it, for indeed they would use scripture to justify what was going on. There was no actual teaching of Scripture or doctrine or even theology. But there came a time when internally I did not believe what I was seeing and hearing. At the same time, there was a desire not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and I had to know, from the Bible, if these things concerning tongues, miracles and healings, signs and wonders, were not true, why they were not.

And this is what I found.

In the gospels we see Jesus performing miracles and forgiving sins. And there is no mention of speaking in tongues in the gospels. We see tongues first appear in Acts 2:1-13 when the day of Pentecost arrived. At that time, Peter stood up and explained what was happening by interpreting it through Joel. (verses 14-21) Then in verses 22-23 he tells us why Jesus performed miracles. "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth,, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know---this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

In 2 Cor 12:12 we read The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. Paul is saying this because his apostleship had come into question. We see here that the signs and wonders and miracles were serving the same purpose in the apostleship and they did in Christ's ministry. With Jesus, they showed who He is, Son of God, and His absolute authority in all He said. In the apostles it verified their authority in laying the foundational teachings of Christ's church. It verified the truthfulness of their word. This was necessary as Christianity was birthed and the gospel spread. It was gifted to the apostolic church because it was needed. It is no longer needed for the foundation is laid, not to be built upon any other foundation, the book closed. We have all the verification needed within its pages. That is not to say that God has ceased all miracles and no longer heals, but it is a matter of asking in prayer, not demanding, and with a willingness to submit to His will. And it is not a common function within the church as it is treated by Charismatics and faith healers. That in essence is asking for a sign as though His word were not enough.

So what about tongues? That too was a sign. At Pentecost it is clear that it was actual languages that were being spoken. Acts 2:5-8 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own language?"

Pentecost is the Greek name for the Jewish festival Shavout, in which all Jewish males were required to observe this festival at the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. In the dispersion they were scattered over many lands, so there were many different languages and dialects spoken by the Jews of that day. The languages were given so that all could hear the gospel and they in turn carried it back to their homes.

Churches were being established in these different places, particularly by Paul who was appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles, and were in Gentile lands. Therefore that same gift was needed. In addition to this, the fact that the gospel was being spoken in Gentile languages indicated that salvation by grace through faith was given to all, not just Jews. We see this explicitly stated in Acts 10:34-44. Speaking in tongues (languages) was a sign that the New Covenant was for all nations, and it was necessary for it to be visible. That is no longer necessary because we have all the evidence within the pages of our Bible, and the Bible itself translated into many languages. In addition there is internal evidence within the Bible that the "sign" gifts, tongues and signs and wonders, were passing away even within the lifetime of the Apostles. Aside from Acts and 2 Cor tongues is not mentioned.

There is much more to be explored, particularly some things that are said in Cor. but I will leave that for questions or comments, if there are any.

Thank you.

I've come to much the same conclusions.

I've even heard an explanation that really smacks of unbiblical heresy - when someone claims to have tried and tried to receive the 'Holy Spirit Baptism/Tongues' and prayed and prayed, etc. It was told to them that they needed to achieve a state of 'perfection' (my word). That they had unrepented sins or unconfessed sins and they needed to attain to some level of holiness or high sanctification. That, to me, is horrible heresy.

That not only implies that all who speak in tongues are at some level of higher perfection than those who don't, but it also begs the question - Does that level of perfection then remain or can it devolve?

I had a first-hand testimony given to me from a Pentecostal Bible teacher that they received 'tongues' at a young age and then 'backslid'? and fell into worldly ways again and had to go back and get re-baptized, etc. That's a bit of a contradiction to this concept at least.

So there's just so much that doesn't add up with it all. And I can honestly say it made me a bit sad to come to these conclusions because I am convinced that all the people I met in the Pentecostal church were very sincere, very in love with God and meant very well. Apparently they were just all deceived ... I guess?

 

[Arial]

I've even heard an explanation that really smacks of unbiblical heresy - when someone claims to have tried and tried to receive the 'Holy Spirit Baptism/Tongues' and prayed and prayed, etc. It was told to them that they needed to achieve a state of 'perfection' (my word). That they had unrepented sins or unconfessed sins and they needed to attain to some level of holiness or high sanctification. That, to me, is horrible heresy.

That was how tongues in the church today really began. The history and names have escaped my memory but I can revisit my sources if you want the who, what, where, when, and why of it. It separated the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of all believers with a secondary baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. It was said this would lead to perfection and as that never happened for anyone except by claim, it morphed into more an ability given to grow in faith. And mutated some more into increased power.

The pastor I was under, and is often claimed, when people are prayed over to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and before they are in order to incite a reaction, is to say you just have to start making sounds, and with practice we become more fluent. Even just a groan they will say. This is all based on emotion and fueled by it. But yes, what you say above is the same thing that is often used when a person with the "gift of healing" speaks over someone and they aren't healed. "You must not have enough faith." of "You have unrepentant sin in your life." Unfortunately, I think some, but not all, of these folks actually believe what they are doing and saying.

That not only implies that all who speak in tongues are at some level of higher perfection than those who don't,

Exactly, though it will be denied every time. They are more spiritual. I have a sister who is involved in this sort of thing and have heard her say that these Charismatic churches are the mature Christians. When in fact they are the babies, even if they have been Christians for 30 plus years. They never grew out of that initial stage where we often are blessed with such things as simple childlike prayers are answered at once. Which I think God probably does for the "new born" as encouragement, and as a sign to them that they have made a connection with Him. But He expects us to grow up, out of the demanding, self centeredness of children and seek Him, not the loaves and fishes. To come to know Him more and more, not seek more and more benefits. To love Him, and not the blessings.

And I can honestly say it made me a bit sad to come to these conclusions because I am convinced that all the people I met in the Pentecostal church were very sincere, very in love with God and meant very well. Apparently they were just all deceived ... I guess?

I agree that probably even most involved in these "movements of God" are sincere, are truly His children through faith in the person and work of Christ. Jesus speaks of wolves in sheeps clothing because the enemy and deceiver is in our midst. They stand in our pulpits often. They quote the Bible. Some are deceived themselves and some have malicious intent and personal gain. But in all cases it is the sad thing that has happened in a postmodern era. Solid teaching on Christian doctrine, and expounding on the word of God, hermeneutics and exegesis of the Scriptures, have all but left our churches. His people are not being equipped to discern what is sound teaching and what is not. I equate it to our walls being torn down and our gates burned with fire. And I pray about it. The bright light in all of this is that, nothing can take any out of God's hands who He has given to Jesus.

 

[STAND]

That was how tongues in the church today really began. The history and names have escaped my memory but I can revisit my sources if you want the who, what, where, when, and why of it. It separated the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of all believers with a secondary baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. It was said this would lead to perfection and as that never happened for anyone except by claim, it morphed into more an ability given to grow in faith. And mutated some more into increased power.

The pastor I was under, and is often claimed, when people are prayed over to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and before they are in order to incite a reaction, is to say you just have to start making sounds, and with practice we become more fluent. Even just a groan they will say. This is all based on emotion and fueled by it. But yes, what you say above is the same thing that is often used when a person with the "gift of healing" speaks over someone and they aren't healed. "You must not have enough faith." of "You have unrepentant sin in your life." Unfortunately, I think some, but not all, of these folks actually believe what they are doing and saying.

Exactly, though it will be denied every time. They are more spiritual. I have a sister who is involved in this sort of thing and have heard her say that these Charismatic churches are the mature Christians. When in fact they are the babies, even if they have been Christians for 30 plus years. They never grew out of that initial stage where we often are blessed with such things as simple childlike prayers are answered at once. Which I think God probably does for the "new born" as encouragement, and as a sign to them that they have made a connection with Him. But He expects us to grow up, out of the demanding, self centeredness of children and seek Him, not the loaves and fishes. To come to know Him more and more, not seek more and more benefits. To love Him, and not the blessings.

I agree that probably even most involved in these "movements of God" are sincere, are truly His children through faith in the person and work of Christ. Jesus speaks of wolves in sheeps clothing because the enemy and deceiver is in our midst. They stand in our pulpits often. They quote the Bible. Some are deceived themselves and some have malicious intent and personal gain. But in all cases it is the sad thing that has happened in a postmodern era. Solid teaching on Christian doctrine, and expounding on the word of God, hermeneutics and exegesis of the Scriptures, have all but left our churches. His people are not being equipped to discern what is sound teaching and what is not. I equate it to our walls being torn down and our gates burned with fire. And I pray about it. The bright light in all of this is that, nothing can take any out of God's hands who He has given to Jesus.

Yeah, I totally agree.

I really did a deep dive into the Pentecostal church history and tongues and I believe the early self-appointed "prophets" of the movement, that you're thinking of, were Charles Fox Parnham and William J Seymour.

Also you can look at the Wiki page from Google and even find there that the earliest Pentecostal Missionaries traveled to far away lands, convinced they could approach any indigenous peoples and miraculously speak their unknown languages, and completely failed to communicate with any of them. What a sad wake-up call that should have been, hopefully.

Isn't it interesting that Parnham opened a College teaching how to receive 'tongues' before he himself ever received the "gift"? And the name of the College, Bethel, was the name of a corrupt city in Biblical times and is to this very day known for corruption.

In 1900, Parham opened Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, America, where he taught initial evidence, a Charismatic belief about how to initiate the practice. During a service on 1 January 1901, a student named Agnes Ozman asked for prayer and the laying on of hands to specifically ask God to fill her with the Holy Spirit. She became the first of many students to experience glossolalia, in the first hours of the 20th century. Parham followed within the next few days. Parham called his new movement the apostolic faith. In 1905, he moved to Houston and opened a Bible school there. One of his students was William Seymour, an African-American preacher. In 1906, Seymour traveled to Los Angeles where his preaching ignited the Azusa Street Revival. This revival is considered the birth of the global Pentecostal movement. According to the first issue of William Seymour's newsletter, The Apostolic Faith, from 1906:

Parham and his early followers believed that speaking in tongues was xenoglossia, and some followers traveled to foreign countries and tried to use the gift to share the Gospel with non-English-speaking people. From the time of the Azusa Street revival and among early participants in the Pentecostal movement, there were many accounts of individuals hearing their own languages spoken 'in tongues'. The majority of Pentecostals and Charismatics consider speaking in tongues to primarily be divine, or the "language of angels", rather than human languages.[38] In the years following the Azusa Street revival Pentecostals who went to the mission field found that they were unable to speak in the language of the local inhabitants at will when they spoke in tongues in strange lands.[39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues#:~:text=These findings were confirmed by,only a facade of language".

 

[Arial]

Yeah, I totally agree.

I really did a deep dive into the Pentecostal church history and tongues and I believe the early self-appointed "prophets" of the movement, that you're thinking of, were Charles Fox Parnham and William J Seymour.

Also you can look at the Wiki page from Google and even find there that the earliest Pentecostal Missionaries traveled to far away lands, convinced they could approach any indigenous peoples and miraculously speak their unknown languages, and completely failed to communicate with any of them. What a sad wake-up call that should have been, hopefully.

Isn't it interesting that Parnham opened a College teaching how to receive 'tongues' before he himself ever received the "gift"? And the name of the College, Bethel, was the name of a corrupt city in Biblical times and is to this very day known for corruption.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues#:~:text=These findings were confirmed by,only a facade of language".

Yes Parnham is who I was thinking of. Another good book on it and the connection to the Word of Faith movement is A Different Gospel by D.R McConnell.

 

[STAND]

Yes Parnham is who I was thinking of. Another good book on it and the connection to the Word of Faith movement is A Different Gospel by D.R McConnell.

That one sounds familiar, didn't know the author though.

 

[Binyawmene]

I began my Christianity in 1983 in tongues speaking Charismatic, non denominational churches.

I had somewhat similiar experience. Although, my Christianity started at a very young age in a Southern Baptist Church. I remember at the age of 4. We would sing songs, "Jesus loves me, this I know, etc." At the same age, I told my mom that I wanted to go home. My mom said: "You are home." I replied: "No. I want to go home and be with Jesus." There were other times when I was 8, and read Genesis 1 for the first time and was able to memorize verses 1-3 instantly and the same happen with Psalms 23. I was able to memorize the whole chapter just by reading it for the first time. Then at the age 10, my dad wasn't feeling good. I placed my hand on my dad's shoulder and prayed that God would heal him. My dad claims he was healed. But to this day I don't know with any certainty. While at the same age I told my parents that I wanted to be a missionary. My answer was that you can do that when you are older and of the right age. So, I asked my dad to show me how to witness to people. I took my dad to all my friends' houses and my dad would witness to their parents. I left our church and told my parents that I don't want to go to church no more. They never forced me to church, so I stayed home on Sunday morning watch cartoons. But I always prayed and read the Bible.

Years later around age 20. My friend (who is Catholic) asked me to come to a Holy Spirit revival. There was 4 catholic priests who were missionaries and a praise and worship band. One of the priest said: "Don't be afraid if you start speaking a different language, just flow with it." Unfortunately I didn't speak in tongues. But at the end of mass a priest asked me if I was catholic. I said: "No. Will you still pray for me." I had to cross my arms (since I'm not catholic), anointed me with oil, and prayed that I would receive the Holy Spirit. The other priests joined into the prayer. Three days later, I was on my bed worshipping God through a Kirt Franklin songs. When suddenly the Holy Spirit and power touched me from the top of my head down to the soles of my feet. And it was like I could not stop speaking in tongues. Again, three days later, I heard a soft still voice speaking to my spirit, "Walk in my love." And suddenly the power of God's love fell down on me. Of course, so many more spiritual experiences I can share.

That's when my search begins going through my phases. I had a spiritual experience and I want to know why. I started to get involved into Pentecostals/Charismatics movements. I was big on Kenneth Hagin, "name it and claim it," "God will give you the desires of your heart," and that after a while was utter nonsense. Then I tried Oneness Pentecostal, they couldn't understand how I can speak in tongues, never been water baptized, and not believe Jesus is the Father because I'm a Trinitarian. Didn't work for me. Eventually I got water baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I also tried Jehovah Witness, that was simply flat-out weird. Definitely didn't work. So, I figured that I go back to the source of my spiritual experience. I learned that they are Charismatic Catholics from Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. After studying the catechism for 1 year, then I was able to be water baptized (again, sprinkled), confirmation, and first communion. I left the church because of doctrine issues. Now its been so many years that I no longer search anymore. Been there and done that. A lot of Christians go through their searching phases and some don't. The church I attend now is strongly influenced into Calvinism.

Catholic Charismatic Renewal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Our History
Uncover the history of Franciscan from its start as the College of Steubenville to the charismatic revival in the 70s to the present day and take a peek into our future.​

Franciscan University 75th Anniversary

75.franciscan.edu

 

[Arial]

I had somewhat similiar experience. Although, my Christianity started at a very young age in a Southern Baptist Church. I remember at the age of 4. We would sing songs, "Jesus loves me, this I know, etc." At the same age, I told my mom that I wanted to go home. My mom said: "You are home." I replied: "No. I want to go home and be with Jesus." There were other times when I was 8, and read Genesis 1 for the first time and was able to memorize verses 1-3 instantly and the same happen with Psalms 23. I was able to memorize the whole chapter just by reading it for the first time. Then at the age 10, my dad wasn't feeling good. I placed my hand on my dad's shoulder and prayed that God would heal him. My dad claims he was healed. But to this day I don't know with any certainty. While at the same age I told my parents that I wanted to be a missionary. My answer was that you can do that when you are older and of the right age. So, I asked my dad to show me how to witness to people. I took my dad to all my friends' houses and my dad would witness to their parents. I left our church and told my parents that I don't want to go to church no more. They never forced me to church, so I stayed home on Sunday morning watch cartoons. But I always prayed and read the Bible.

Years later around age 20. My friend (who is Catholic) asked me to come to a Holy Spirit revival. There was 4 catholic priests who were missionaries and a praise and worship band. One of the priest said: "Don't be afraid if you start speaking a different language, just flow with it." Unfortunately I didn't speak in tongues. But at the end of mass a priest asked me if I was catholic. I said: "No. Will you still pray for me." I had to cross my arms (since I'm not catholic), anointed me with oil, and prayed that I would receive the Holy Spirit. The other priests joined into the prayer. Three days later, I was on my bed worshipping God through a Kirt Franklin songs. When suddenly the Holy Spirit and power touched me from the top of my head down to the soles of my feet. And it was like I could not stop speaking in tongues. Again, three days later, I heard a soft still voice speaking to my spirit, "Walk in my love." And suddenly the power of God's love fell down on me. Of course, so many more spiritual experiences I can share.

That's when my search begins going through my phases. I had a spiritual experience and I want to know why. I started to get involved into Pentecostals/Charismatics movements. I was big on Kenneth Hagin, "name it and claim it," "God will give you the desires of your heart," and that after a while was utter nonsense. Then I tried Oneness Pentecostal, they couldn't understand how I can speak in tongues, never been water baptized, and not believe Jesus is the Father because I'm a Trinitarian. Didn't work for me. Eventually I got water baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I also tried Jehovah Witness, that was simply flat-out weird. Definitely didn't work. So, I figured that I go back to the source of my spiritual experience. I learned that they are Charismatic Catholics from Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. After studying the catechism for 1 year, then I was able to be water baptized (again, sprinkled), confirmation, and first communion. I left the church because of doctrine issues. Now its been so many years that I no longer search anymore. Been there and done that. A lot of Christians go through their searching phases and some don't. The church I attend now is strongly influenced into Calvinism.

Catholic Charismatic Renewal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Our History​

Uncover the history of Franciscan from its start as the College of Steubenville to the charismatic revival in the 70s to the present day and take a peek into our future.​

Franciscan University 75th Anniversary

75.franciscan.edu

We each travel the paths in which God leads us and for His purposes, and He also treats us as the individuals that we are. I was raised as a Christian Scientist!. I left it as a young adult but did not give up a lot of the metaphysical type thinking. My two sisters and brother, all Christians now, and my brother gone Home, hung onto resentments at the way we were raised. There was a lot of isolation. My mother was raised Baptist and Methodist, my dad Presbyterian and I think a lot of it stuck. CS is so alien. No personal God. And yet we were raised with God at the center and the utmost. As a child I saw Him as personal. Rabbit trail. Sorry. My point is, I do not hold anything against them. They are the parents God gave me and so were the perfect parents for me, and I know now that every step of my life and while I was still in my mother's womb, were directed by God towards the Shepherd. And I am grateful.

I too have spoken in tongues in the past and I am not going to stomp on anyone's beliefs in that. I don't speak in tongues anymore, and I no longer think it was real, and I do not believe they are for the church anymore for the reasons given in the OP. And the way they are used in the churches is out of bounds.

 

[Binyawmene]

We each travel the paths in which God leads us and for His purposes, and He also treats us as the individuals that we are. I was raised as a Christian Scientist!. I left it as a young adult but did not give up a lot of the metaphysical type thinking. My two sisters and brother, all Christians now, and my brother gone Home, hung onto resentments at the way we were raised. There was a lot of isolation. My mother was raised Baptist and Methodist, my dad Presbyterian and I think a lot of it stuck. CS is so alien. No personal God. And yet we were raised with God at the center and the utmost. As a child I saw Him as personal. Rabbit trail. Sorry. My point is, I do not hold anything against them. They are the parents God gave me and so were the perfect parents for me, and I know now that every step of my life and while I was still in my mother's womb, were directed by God towards the Shepherd. And I am grateful.

I too have spoken in tongues in the past and I am not going to stomp on anyone's beliefs in that. I don't speak in tongues anymore, and I no longer think it was real, and I do not believe they are for the church anymore for the reasons given in the OP. And the way they are used in the churches is out of bounds.

I, too, think I still carry a lot of Pentecostals/Charismatics type of thinking. It's not easy to shake off and tongues is still there. My spiritual walk is more fulfilling with tongues, especially the manifestations of the fruit of the Spirit. We all have different back grounds. And a lot of people gone through their searching phases. Let the Lord keep molding, shaping, and fashioning us for his glory.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The pastor I was under, and is often claimed, when people are prayed over to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and before they are in order to incite a reaction, is to say you just have to start making sounds, and with practice we become more fluent.

This is the "Priming the pump" heresy.

It used to be common in Assembly of God churches where there were "Head-rubbing" sessions at the alter rail, to try to get folks "Baptized in the Spirit".

"Priming the pump" results in phony "tongues" which have no spiritual basis, and are pure flesh in origen. Of course the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) Denomination teaches that "no tongues=no salvation" so the peer pressure to choke out an acceptable "Tongue" is intense.

REAL Tongues (like real Prophesy, or Real interpretation) isn't related to personal "Mental creativity" at all. You simply speak whatever the Holy Spirit puts into your mind without adding to, or deleting from what you're given.

 

[STAND]

This is the "Priming the pump" heresy.

It used to be common in Assembly of God churches where there were "Head-rubbing" sessions at the alter rail, to try to get folks "Baptized in the Spirit".

"Priming the pump" results in phony "tongues" which have no spiritual basis, and are pure flesh in origen. Of course the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) Denomination teaches that "no tongues=no salvation" so the peer pressure to choke out an acceptable "Tongue" is intense.

REAL Tongues (like real Prophesy, or Real interpretation) isn't related to personal "Mental creativity" at all. You simply speak whatever the Holy Spirit puts into your mind without adding to, or deleting from what you're given.

Just curious, been researching this for a good while now.

How many times have you experienced, or witnessed, this REAL tongues and was it glossolalia or xenolalia?

Not quizzing you, just keeping track of the different manifestations that I hear and read about.

Gloss' = untranslatable "language of angels"

Xeno' = legit human languages 'unknown' to the speaker

 

[Mr GLee]

This is the "Priming the pump" heresy.

It used to be common in Assembly of God churches where there were "Head-rubbing" sessions at the alter rail, to try to get folks "Baptized in the Spirit".

"Priming the pump" results in phony "tongues" which have no spiritual basis, and are pure flesh in origen. Of course the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) Denomination teaches that "no tongues=no salvation" so the peer pressure to choke out an acceptable "Tongue" is intense.

REAL Tongues (like real Prophesy, or Real interpretation) isn't related to personal "Mental creativity" at all. You simply speak whatever the Holy Spirit puts into your mind without adding to, or deleting from what you're given.

Tongues is prophecy For over two thousand years the possibility of a new prophecy as a tongue has not ben added to the perfect sealed with 7 seals till the end of time.

We must look to the foundation as a law of tongues (prophecy) the athiest Jew where mocking prophecy, getting tired of hear the same over and over , So they gave him a example and spoke in gibberish baby talk . he turned around and gave it right back not giving the a understanding of prophet they fel backward after the judgment of Christ

Isaiah 28: 9-12 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:“

Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham.”

So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”

When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

 

[Arial]

REAL Tongues (like real Prophesy, or Real interpretation) isn't related to personal "Mental creativity" at all. You simply speak whatever the Holy Spirit puts into your mind without adding to, or deleting from what you're given.

Shouldn't it be checked against what we are given within the Scriptures so as to not be something outside of them, such as new prophecy or personal prophecy over someone's life? To see if it is counter to biblical teaching or adding to it?

After all, the heart of a man is deceitful above all else, and we are likely to have almost anything in our mind.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Shouldn't it be checked against what we are given within the Scriptures so as to not be something outside of them, such as new prophecy or personal prophecy over someone's life? To see if it is counter to biblical teaching or adding to it?

After all, the heart of a man is deceitful above all else, and we are likely to have almost anything in our mind.

Yup - any "Prophecy that doesn't "square" with Scripture is automatically discarded, and any Prophesy WITHOUT CONFIRMATION (typically by another witness) is filed in "Pending", until confirmation comes. Paul, in 1 Cor 14, cautions NOT to "Eat whole" any unconfirmed prophesy (Let the others judge). Anybody who commits resources on the basis of an unconfirmed prophecy is a FOOL.

My Wife got a personal prophesy some years back from a person we didn't know, and then she received the same word several weeks later from a totally different person unrelated to us, or to the first one. THAT'S when you start taking it seriously.

 

[Arial]

Yup - any "Prophecy that doesn't "square" with Scripture is automatically discarded, and any Prophesy WITHOUT CONFIRMATION (typically by another witness) is filed in "Pending", until confirmation comes. Paul, in 1 Cor 14, cautions NOT to "Eat whole" any unconfirmed prophesy (Let the others judge). Anybody who commits resources on the basis of an unconfirmed prophecy is a FOOL.

My Wife got a personal prophesy some years back from a person we didn't know, and then she received the same word several weeks later from a totally different person unrelated to us, or to the first one. THAT'S when you start taking it seriously.

Did the prophecy come to pass?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Did the prophecy come to pass?

It was an accurate warning, which she largely ignored.

 

[STAND]

Yup - any "Prophecy that doesn't "square" with Scripture is automatically discarded, and any Prophesy WITHOUT CONFIRMATION (typically by another witness) is filed in "Pending", until confirmation comes. Paul, in 1 Cor 14, cautions NOT to "Eat whole" any unconfirmed prophesy (Let the others judge). Anybody who commits resources on the basis of an unconfirmed prophecy is a FOOL.

My Wife got a personal prophesy some years back from a person we didn't know, and then she received the same word several weeks later from a totally different person unrelated to us, or to the first one. THAT'S when you start taking it seriously.

That's amazing.

So both these prophesies were given by a person and then translated by someone who was also present at the time they were given?

 

[Mr GLee]

cautions NOT to "Eat whole" any unconfirmed prophesy (Let the others judge). Anybody who commits resources on the basis of an unconfirmed prophecy is a FOOL.

Unconfirmed by who? The one that speaks prophecy called tongues? He is the one that does confirm

According to the law found in the old testament It must be confirmed by him just what is tongues?,

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Again what law .As whose thoughts ? "Let there be" and God confirmed "it was God alone good"

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Unconfirmed by who?

An independent source - typically another person having the same message. Mat 18:19

With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Has nothing to do with "tongues" it's referring to the Assyrians and their captivity of Israel.

 

[Mr GLee]

An independent source - typically another person having the same message. Mat 18:19

Has nothing to do with "tongues" it's referring to the Assyrians and their captivity of Israel.

Hi thanks. .

It refers to all who have ears to hear what he says to the churches as families Using the Assyrians to represent all. He propmised them who mocked the written word of God that when the first century reformation would come fulfilling the prophecy of Joel . that we would hide the understanding of the prophecy from those who mock his writen authority . They thought the prophet was drunk. In hearing they heard not the understanding of prophecy the tongue of God and in seeing saw not the spiritual understanding

Acts 2: 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Before the reformation a Jewish men only club there were no female prophets or young men prophets from all the nations its was restored to that period of Judges men and women sent out as apostles with the gospel .

If not loosed from above produced below .Then it is not of our unseen head Holy Father but earthly after the god of this world

Mathew 16:18 -19`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. `Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they may ask -- it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens, for where there are two or three gathered together -- to my name, there am I in the midst of them

We need no man dying mankind to teach us.