Theology Question For Calvinist/Reformed Members

[ReverendRV]

OK. Agreed. I need an example.

Keep reading, my Gospel Tract about Samson has an example...

 

[fastfredy0]

In Adam we are sinners who sin.

So, it is in ADAM we live, breathe and have our being when it comes to our sin nature for Adam is the First Cause of our sin nature?

So, Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. .... so not all things originate with and through God?

So, Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our Potter, And we all are the work of Your hand. ..... so when it comes to a sin nature, Adam is the potter?

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [according to their role] for the day of evil. ... so you contend that the Lord's purpose is dependent upon Adam being the First Cause of our sin nature?

 

[Arial]

So, it is in ADAM we live, breathe and have our being when it comes to our sin nature for Adam is the First Cause of our sin nature?

No! Do you not agree with the imputed sin of Adam?

Adam is the federal head of all mankind. This is God's doing. It is His design. But it is Adam who fell. The result is original sin. The result of Adam's failure...we are by virtue of his nature sinners who sin. He is the first to sin, not the first cause of our sinning. And it does not mean that in Adam we live and breathe. I means we are like our father Adam.

 

[Josheb]

So God decided something after He created them instead of before He created them?

All God's decisions were made in eternity before time existed. There is no before or after prior to time being created!

No. That is why I asked.

Then I recommend doing so. There are only a handful of occasions where the words "elect," "elected," or "election" are found in the NT. It doesn't take that much time to peruse Calvin's commentaries on those texts. More fundamentally, in the NAS, of the eight mentions of "elect" not one of those verses explicitly states the elect were/are "created." A combined search of "elect AND created" comes up zero. The Greek, "eklektos" is often translated "chosen," so your inquiry then becomes, "Are the chosen (noun) or created or chosen (verb)? Of course the chosen are chosen. That's what it means to be chosen . But they could also be created. Created chosen, or created to be chosen. If the latter, then how, why, and when? I get it. It does not help that the waters get muddied quickly when "chosen" (eklogen) is searched rather than "elected." There are several dozen mentions in the NT and more than 100 in both Testaments.

Here's something Calvin wrote in his commentary on Mark 13...

"Yet it ought to be observed, that it was on account of the elect that God restrained the fierceness of his anger, that he might not consume them all. For why did he determine that a few should remain out of a vast multitude? and what reason had he for giving them a preference above others? It was because his grace dwelt in the people whom he had adopted; and, that his covenant might not fail, some were elected and appointed to salvation by his eternal purpose. Hence Paul ascribes to free election (Romans 11:5) the reason why out of an immense nation a remnant only was saved. Away then with human merits, when our attention is directed exclusively to the good pleasure of God, that the distinction between some persons and others may depend solely on this, that those who have been elected must be saved. To state the matter more clearly and fully, Mark uses a superfluity of words, expressing it thus, on account of the elect, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Certainly the use of the word elect might have been sufficient, if he had not intended to state expressly that God is not induced by external causes to bestow his favor on some rather than on others; but that, because he has elected those whom he will save, he ratifies the secret purpose of his grace in their salvation."​

Now that is not solely soteriological salvation; it includes eschatological salvation (the two are not wholly synonymous).

I don't know that it is the Calvinist position or not and am not attempting to align my beliefs with those of Calvin. My OP has nothing to do with Calvin. I only ask it of Calvinist/Reformed because they are the ones who adopt election and predestination of the individual.

I can tell you some of what Calvin wrote (I haven't read everything) but you don't need us for that. I'm also a big fan of searching for ourselves and coming to our own conclusions. Consequently, I can offer my own povs with you knowing I'm firmly Reformed and monergistic but not aligned with everything Calvin taught or the WCF teaches. I am not, for example, convinced imputation is the best explanation for the universal effect of sin. I also part ways with the premise of humans being created immortal. For the most part, however, my views fall firmly and well within the authoritative statements like the WCF. The exceptions are few but there is plenty of diversity within our (Reformed) povs.

Well that section of my post was not asking you to address that question----I was addressing it. And though I agree pretty much with the WCF that is not where I primarily get my information, and if I do, a verify it with scripture. I do not treat the WCF as my authority over what I believe.

Perhaps it will be profitable to cite the specific scriptures prompting the op's inquiry. I'll do what I can to walk through the exegesis with you.

 

[Josheb]

Do you believe that each individual is a direct creation of God? Or do you believe that God only created the natural method of human propagation, but does not directly create each person?

But all men are equally created in the image and likeness of God.

If all men are created in the image and likeness of God then God creates all men.

 

[Arial]

Where do you see the spirit of man fitting in, as in "dividing between soul and spirit "(Heb 4:12)?

Gotta' a quick reference for the soul living after the body?

Spirit and soul are used interchangeably in the Bible so I consider them to be one and the same. In Hebrews 4:12 I don't believe it is the author's intention to divide people into constituent parts in a trichotomy (body, soul and spirit). Otherwise we would expect him to say bone and marrow instead of joints and marrow. His intent was to stress the power of God's words to reach the deepest recesses of our being.

Something lives after the body. Do you need scriptures for that or is the question based on the principle of soul and spirit being two different parts of us? If the soul and spirit are not two but different words for the same thing, conoting life and all that goes with life, thinking, moving, breathing, personality etc. then it is the soul that lives on and cannot die because it is spirit and not flesh.

 

[Arial]

If all men are created in the image and likeness of God then God creates all men.

Right.

 

[turbomaniac]

Are the elect created to belong to Christ and is the choosing that God does choosing to create those specific persons for Christ, for His glory, and as His inheritance? That would certainly change one's perspective from redemption being man centered to being God centered. I have been trying to work through this to see if it is compatible with the things that we do know doctrinally and keep hitting possible snags---and then my mind wanders off to other things less taxing. I do not want to lean on my own understanding and call it good. And I don't want to singularly arrive at a doctrine and consider it truth.

I am asking for help in working through this, from fellow Reformed, well versed in scripture, theology, and doctrine, of which there are many on this forum.

Actually, God does not elect human He is waiting humans to elect God. Because He is out of time and space He knows who is going finally to choose God and not the world. He has done everything possible to bring back humans to Him, He even sent His only Son to invite humans. He created His Church and gave directions of how man can be with God. But most of us choose our own way to reach God and of course our own way is not wiser than the way God teached. The way is simple. Pray as much as you can, Repent as often as you can, read His word and how Saints interpretated His Gospel, drink His blood and eat His flesh, as often you can, Fast as the Apostles said (Wednesday, Friday, 40 days before easter and Christmas), Do not look the flaws of other humans, Pray to God to show yours. Help other humans as much as you can

 

[ReverendRV]

Actually, God does not elect human He is waiting humans to elect God. Because He is out of time and space He knows who is going finally to choose God and not the world. He has done everything possible to bring back humans to Him, He even sent His only Son to invite humans. He created His Church and gave directions of how man can be with God. But most of us choose our own way to reach God and of course our own way is not wiser than the way God teached. The way is simple. Pray as much as you can, Repent as often as you can, read His word and how Saints interpretated His Gospel, drink His blood and eat His flesh, as often you can, Fast as the Apostles said (Wednesday, Friday, 40 days before easter and Christmas), Do not look the flaws of other humans, Pray to God to show yours. Help other humans as much as you can

What about those who were Chosen from the Womb?

 

[Arial]

Actually, God does not elect human He is waiting humans to elect God. Because He is out of time and space He knows who is going finally to choose God and not the world. He has done everything possible to bring back humans to Him, He even sent His only Son to invite humans. He created His Church and gave directions of how man can be with God. But most of us choose our own way to reach God and of course our own way is not wiser than the way God teached. The way is simple. Pray as much as you can, Repent as often as you can, read His word and how Saints interpretated His Gospel, drink His blood and eat His flesh, as often you can, Fast as the Apostles said (Wednesday, Friday, 40 days before easter and Christmas), Do not look the flaws of other humans, Pray to God to show yours. Help other humans as much as you can

That is not the Calvinist/Reformed view and the OP is directed to be responded to from that view. If we carry on addressing this post we have changed the OP into one that does not belong in Theology Questions but in the debate in Arminianism and Calvinism.

 

[Josheb]

Then He isn't choosing the elect from a pool of the reprobate. He chose them before He created them and created them as chosen---for Christ.

And all of them were dead in sin. ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Paul did not say "All but the elect have sinned and fallen short..." He said "all" and he meant all. Non-sinners do not need salvation from sin.

Does that make any sense to you?

Certainly.

I prefer to get my doctrines straight from scripture but it can be very helpful to learn from those who have walked the Christian life before me, and to do so from diverse perspectives. I've read just as many monergists as I have synergists and tried to examine their arguments on their own merits when measured by exegetically well-rendered scripture, beginning with the explicit. I know this is a rather broad generalization but, comparatively speaking, synergists are way more likely to read scripture inferentially than monergists. They do so more frequently and with greater liberty. I would hope Calvinist Reformed members would at least reference Calvin and Reformed sources as they articulate their views since those teachers would be from where they became Reformed .

I gotta go. I'll get back to the rest of the post later.

 

[Eleanor]

Spirit and soul are used interchangeably in the Bible so I consider them to be one and the same. In Hebrews 4:12 I don't believe it is the author's intention to divide people into constituent parts in a trichotomy (body, soul and spirit). Otherwise we would expect him to say bone and marrow instead of joints and marrow. His intent was to stress the power of God's words to reach the deepest recesses of our being.

Something lives after the body. Do you need scriptures for that or is the question based on the principle of soul and spirit being two different parts of us? If the soul and spirit are not two but different words for the same thing, conoting life and all that goes with life, thinking, moving, breathing, personality etc. then it is the soul that lives on and cannot die because it is spirit and not flesh.

Thanks.

 

[Arial]

And all of them were dead in sin. ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Paul did not say "All but the elect have sinned and fallen short..." He said "all" and he meant all. Non-sinners do not need salvation from sin.

Already addressed by me in another post.

And while it is true that they are reprobates as they are born in Adam, only reprobates need redeeming, so Christ only redeems reprobates, it is my contention that the elect were created as reprobates (being born in Adam) they were created for the specific purpose of being given to the Son as His inheritance and bride.

 

[Mr GLee]

So, it is in ADAM we live, breathe and have our being when it comes to our sin nature for Adam is the First Cause of our sin nature?

Adam did not breath the breath of life into his own self . It was temporal based upon the letter of the law (death) thou shalt not or in dying one is a good as dead .

The temporal spirit given under the letter of the law returned to the the father of all spirit life. The body returning to the dust

Those born again from above have a new sprit that will not die with a living promise beyond the gave for a new body that will also never die

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[fastfredy0]

Do you not agree with the imputed sin of Adam?

I believe Adam is the cause of us having a sin nature, but I do not believe Adam is the First Cause of us having a sin nature. It is in God that we live and breathe and have our being IMO. God is the the First Cause of Adam's sin nature being imputed to us IMO.

 

[Arial]

I believe Adam is the cause of us having a sin nature, but I do not believe Adam is the First Cause of us having a sin nature. It is in God that we live and breathe and have our being IMO. God is the the First Cause of Adam's sin nature being imputed to us IMO.

Then we agree.

 

[makesends]

To the objection, God does not create any for damnation (its response being phrased in the conceptions of the objector):
If God "knows" who "will be" rejecting him, and he "creates" them anyway, then he is creating them for damnation.

And we also know that He does not cause anyone to do anything evil and yet evil must happen to fulfill His purposes, or it wouldn't happen.

I say the following only as, "It seems to me". It is not doctrine, but a POV or something. I don't fully comprehend sin, nor the many things to which it is related, so...

I don't really disagree with Arial, except in the terminology. The WCF says that God ordains (by which I use the word, "causes") all things whatsoever comes to pass. I don't really see a mystery there, because the logic is so simple. If all things except for First Cause are effects, (whether they are also causes or not), then he caused that sin be, and that, even in all its worst particulars. But he did not author it, but the sinner is the author of his own sin. The twisting of what is good, the rebellion, are all on the part of the sinner.

The questions and objections that come to mind and that we think must be resolved or it remains mystery, are only our constructions, and not his.

 

[Mr GLee]

I believe Adam is the cause of us having a sin nature, but I do not believe Adam is the First Cause of us having a sin nature. It is in God that we live and breathe and have our being IMO. God is the the First Cause of Adam's sin nature being imputed to us IMO.

Lucifer rebellion against God is the cause of sin seducing mankind to violate the letter of the law death .

 

[Arial]

Keep reading, my Gospel Tract about Samson has an example...

I kept waiting for you to post it, but I guess you meant that I had to go find it from somewhere and read it. I clicked on the facebook link and all that came up was I could find things by clicking on date etc.

So could you just give me an example of how A'ism and Calvinism are compatible when it comes to election and predestination?

 

[Arial]

I don't really disagree with Arial, except in the terminology. The WCF says that God ordains (by which I use the word, "causes") all things whatsoever comes to pass. I don't really see a mystery there, because the logic is so simple. If all things except for First Cause are effects, (whether they are also causes or not), then he caused that sin be, and that, even in all its worst particulars. But he did not author it, but the sinner is the author of his own sin. The twisting of what is good, the rebellion, are all on the part of the sinner.

The logic is simple, but a mystery or paradox remains for the human mind which asks all those "why?" questions and tries to untangle what it is impossible to know or see because they remain hidden in God. It is not a paradox to Him. There is a reason why it is faith that is necessary. And it is not blind faith for we are given enough of God's self revelation to have faith in what we cannot see.

The questions and objections that come to mind and that we think must be resolved or it remains mystery, are only our constructions, and not his.

Yes. For some reason we think we have to find proof of everything and do not even realize when all we are doing is speculating--and arguing over our different speculations. Sometimes I wonder if He doesn't shake His head in fatherly amusement thinking, "Children! Why can you not just rest in who I am and what I have given you?" (Pardon my speculation.)

And of course I am not saying that such things are not good (though in some things it is not.) Great theologians have and are shedding light on the teachings of the Bible, and we need them. They are a gift to the church. And even beyond that, our own individual theological study of the scriptures is vital, for nothing gets into our hearts without first getting into our mind. And we need to be, are told to be, ready in season and out of season to share what is our great hope. To contend for the faith and to spread the good news to the ends of the earth. It is quite an honor and that our Savior has inscripted us into His army to be His mouth piece in the gathering of His sheep.

I think the principle of first and second etc, causes is correct and good, for example, and gives one answer to something but at the same time raises other questions. And those questions---the first probably being, "Wouldn't that make God the first cause of sin and the first cause of sin in the person?" lead directly to the places that can never meet a fully satisfactory answer because first, it calls for the operation of God's mind, and second the operation of the all those minds involved in trying to explain it and the minds of those hearing it. We never know what is actually in the mind, what they are actually thinking when they say what they do, or what is in the mind of the one hearing it in how they hear it.