Theology Question For Calvinist/Reformed Members

[Arial]

Disclaimer: I don't fit this criteria ... but I'll throw my 2 cents worth anyways ...


Short answer: YES (IMO)

Longer answer and reasoning:
God is the FIRST CAUSE of ALL things and has PLANNED ALL things and everything goes according to His plan. In other words, God determines all things. Nothing/no one can change the determinations of God as He is immutable and all knowing.

Proofs:
Premise 1: Before anything existed an immutable God knew all things
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes
Conclusion: God must determine ALL THINGS as there was no other entity to glean knowledge from at one time (time being a human limitation). He determined every aspect down to the atoms of who you are and how you will take your place as a member of His elect.

Premise 1: Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign].
Conclusion: What you do does NOT affect God. God must determine ALL THINGS.

Premise 1: Acts 20:35b Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ”
Premise 2: God is more blessed than His creation
Conclusion: We give God nothing, He gives us ALL. God must determine ALL THINGS.

Aside: Note how one's method of salvation according to Reformed theology falls in line with God determines All Things. We do nothing in regards to being the cause of salvation.

The Aseity of God
God is the source of All Power and Existence moment by moment
Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36; Job 34:14-15 ... so if God could be destroyed then creation would go with Him. God causes all things; God determines all things.

God Controls Men being evidence that He determines/causes all things

• Deuteronomy 8:17-18 And you say in your heart, My power and the might of mine hand has gotten me this wealth. But you shall remember the LORD your God: for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto your fathers, as it is this day"
• Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 45:5-7; Isaiah 54:16; John 5:26;
• 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things [that have been created], and we [believers exist and have life and have been redeemed] through Him.
• Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
• Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our Potter, And we all are the work of Your hand.
• Psalm 33:10 The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He makes the thoughts and plans Of the people ineffective. 11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The thoughts and plans of His heart through all generations.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out).
• Yahda, yahda

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith: He does not need any creature he has made nor does he derive any glory from them. Instead, he demonstrates his own glory in them, by them, to them, and upon them. He alone is the source of all being, and everything is from him, through him, and to him.

The thought that you are the ultimate control of anything you do is to support Free Will. Free will disconnects you from God. You create your choices out of nothing. All these catchphrases teach some form of semi-deistic dualism because you're going to teach that God was able to create you and let go of you which contradicts Hebrews 1:3. God lets go of you metaphysically so that you can be your own ultimate power creating your choices out of nothing. This is dualism, that there is more than one ultimate power at work in the universe. Colin Sketo


That was lovely. I believe God determines all things and therefore caused you to write it; you did not create it via 'free will'. ... interesting to contemplate.

.....anyways, that's my thoughts on the subject
*giggle*
.... things get interesting when you get into theodicies ... aspects of which R.C.Sproul said was a mystery to him

I agree they are mysteries and one's Calvin says we have no business peering into. It is trying to find the answer in the infinite with the finite. It is impossible. We know what God tells us about Himself, and we know what we see in the world. We don't measure or define God by what we see in the world as to evil. And we do not need to and we cannot, not fully. We are to believe God, and trust God. If He says He is not the author of evil, then He is not. If He says He is immutable, then He is. If He says He is holy, and good, and perfect, and that all His ways are perfect, then He is and they are.

And to see even in a glimpse that which I will be able to come back to in time of need; that though mankind is an actor in God's purposes, so to speak, the elect a beneficiary and object of His love, it is not ultimately about us but Him, as God. And in this is a magnitude of being able to trust Him. We can count on Him to keep His covenant with us. We can trust Him to do all He says He will do. We can count on Him to always have our very best interests at heart, to know our every thought and hear our every cry. We can count on Him to lead and guide us, to always love us perfectly, to offer freely of the fountain of His bounty. Not just know these things but trust in them because we are able to turn away from ourselves and turn to Him and Him alone. For His namesake He is trustworthy. Because He is who He is, He is faithful to always love us with perfect love, to never leave or forsake us, to lead us in paths of righteousness.

 

[Arial]

It's just what the Calvinists in the WCF confessed, no biggy. Question is; why did they confess it?

Gotta go get my Halloween on...

I understand that we each have our own approach to presenting the gospel. I am not being critical, just talking through my lens.

 

[ReverendRV]

I understand that we each have our own approach to presenting the gospel. I am not being critical, just talking through my lens.

Speaking of getting some new Mods from both sides, I probably am closer to being an A'ist than y'all. I remain a 5-Point Calvinist though...

 

[Josheb]

Are the elect created to belong to Christ and is the choosing that God does choosing to create those specific persons for Christ, for His glory, and as His inheritance? That would certainly change one's perspective from redemption being man centered to being God centered. I have been trying to work through this to see if it is compatible with the things that we do know doctrinally and keep hitting possible snags---and then my mind wanders off to other things less taxing. I do not want to lean on my own understanding and call it good. And I don't want to singularly arrive at a doctrine and consider it truth.

I am asking for help in working through this, from fellow Reformed, well versed in scripture, theology, and doctrine, of which there are many on this forum.

Hmmm.....

I read scripture to say...

• all humans were created mortal, good, and sinless, but corruptible.
• all humans were originally created to know Christ.
• all humans were created with the divine intent to transform them or, more specifically, to complete their formation so that they are incorruptible and immortal, no longer corruptible and mortal.
• all humans disregarded the hope for which they were created.
• God knew all would disregard that hope and disobey Him.
• from the lot of all humans who disobeyed God (disregarding the opportunity to eat from the tree of life and not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) God chose some for salvation. Those chosen for salvation from the population of otherwise sinfully dead and enslaved humans are the ones called the "elect."
• everything is for God's glory, not just the elect. God is glorified as a just God when He metes out the just recompense for disobedience, and He is glorified as a gracious God when He saves some, whether that "some" be small or large in number.

Genesis 1:31 precludes the possibility God made evil people. People became evil on their own.

 

[Eleanor]

Did you write this, or is it a quote? I love it, but disagree with the notion that "a Bride must be able to choose or Refuse her Groom, or the Marriage is not a true relationship."

Not only do I not find that in the Bible, but not true in history.

My point might be moot, though —the Bride of Christ is most certainly willing! (And it runs the risk of skewing the thread off topic.)

Who made that rule? It's hoaky.
Not to mention the word "relationship" is not in Scripture.

 

[fastfredy0]

I agree they are mysteries and one's Calvin says we have no business peering into. It is trying to find the answer in the infinite with the finite. It is impossible. We know what God tells us about Himself, and we know what we see in the world. We don't measure or define God by what we see in the world as to evil. And we do not need to and we cannot, not fully. We are to believe God, and trust God. If He says He is not the author of evil, then He is not. If He says He is immutable, then He is. If He says He is holy, and good, and perfect, and that all His ways are perfect, then He is and they are.

Agreed for the most part. I am not sure how one defines which 'mysteries' we have no business peering into per Calvin. That being said, Job got a tongue lashing for guessing at God's motives and yet we are to "study to show thyself approved".
I've believe that God defines what is GOOD. So, if He tells Israel to kill everyone including babies then that is good. Now, if someone said the Israel should go into Gaza and kill all the babies I would say that is not good ... unless I knew God told them to do so.
I do have one question ... do you know of a place in the Bible that says God is not the Author of Evil? ... and, what is the definition of "The Author of Evil"?

And to see even in a glimpse that which I will be able to come back to in time of need; that though mankind is an actor in God's purposes, so to speak, the elect a beneficiary and object of His love, it is not ultimately about us but Him, as God.

Agreed. God is the only one with intrinsic good and therefore the only one that it is all about. We're just the clay that He molds for His purposes. The elect are molded to be greatly favored (loved); the non-elect, not so much.

And in this is a magnitude of being able to trust Him. We can count on Him to keep His covenant with us. We can trust Him to do all He says He will do. We can count on Him to always have our very best interests at heart, to know our every thought and hear our every cry. We can count on Him to lead and guide us, to always love us perfectly, to offer freely of the fountain of His bounty. Not just know these things but trust in them because we are able to turn away from ourselves and turn to Him and Him alone. For His namesake He is trustworthy. Because He is who He is, He is faithful to always love us with perfect love, to never leave or forsake us, to lead us in paths of righteousness.

Agreed. Well said. The viewpoint of the non-elect would differ I suppose as they have no one to trust or depend upon, they are forsaken. We are undeservingly blessed beyond measure, created to reflect His glory. 22 I have given to them the glory and honor which You have given Me, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected and completed into one, so that the world may know [without any doubt] that You sent Me, and [that You] have loved them, just as You have loved Me.

 

[makesends]

Very true. And wouldn't that make HIs purpose of each of elect precede their creation (in human terms)? In the same way each of the OT saints had a purpose in God's economy and the were created and equipped and led, for that purpose? And though it does involve and is integrated into His whole plan of redemption, each also has a specific purpose in it. We know the purpose of the OT saints because we see the end. We do not always see the purpose of us other than to glorify Christ and spread the gospel, and I doubt we ever see all of it. Are guessing at best, nevertheless He leads us where He wants us to go.

What struck me when I had the notion, was that even though I know all these things are true, and that it is all about God and not us, we are the beneficiaries and the objects of His love, was a thing that shook me---in a good way. The knowledge that it is all for and about God left its resting place in my mind, and shot like an arrow into my heart. A different perspective of God that elevates Him yet higher. in my lowly estimation. I cannot really describe it and don't know if I am making anything clear in this.

Maybe it is philosophical and not doctrinal, but if it is also opposed to doctrine it is no good at all. But I practically disappeared when the notion struck me, except for one who was created by God, for the most magnificent purpose of all, to be given to the very Son of God. All I could do was worship in awe, and I could only glimpse what I was seeing, for the concept was too awesome to stand in. (Also because, having gone through way too many years as a charismatic, I have come to a place where I do not linger where there is danger of reaching a state of euphoria, and I need to contemplate it with my mind in full gear.) If I were to find a way to express it I guess it would be, "Oh thank God it is not about me at all, it is about You!"

Amen all that. Amen and amen!

I think there are more of us who have seen/felt this than even are aware of the philosophical/doctrinal implications. We know there is something there where our minds can't go for the sheer intensity of it. At least, not in this flesh, not yet.

To me, when this began to make its way into my mind, it of course took away all the anxiety of self-determinism, but more, the fact that it is all about God, by him, and for him and to him, makes such matters as 'eternal security' and such doctrinal disputes moot. The fact that he lets me watch him work is more than I can ask. If, as I believe is so, I am indeed one of his and not fooling myself, "Whom have I in Heaven but you, and being with you, I desire nothing on Earth." And if I have been fooling myself, and I am not one of his, at least for now I am in total awe and amazement of such gentle wise power in the otherness of his purity, and can't help but feel like I will always be —even if he condemns me, yet will I praise him, is the way it feels. How much better is the mere mercy of God, than anything I can hold to or claim to have done!!

How can he, seeing me to be what I am —nothing more (nor less) than his use of me and what he assesses me to be, and nothing in and of myself— care to wound the Almighty Creator on my behalf? Why should I boost my own self-esteem, when I can even now revel in the knowledge of his own joy in what he has done.


I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

---

 

[makesends]

often the Gospel returns to God without a Bride...

Yet, never without accomplishing all that for which he sent it.

 

[makesends]

Hmmm.....

I read scripture to say...

• all humans were created mortal, good, and sinless, but corruptible.
• all humans were originally created to know Christ.
• all humans were created with the divine intent to transform them or, more specifically, to complete their formation so that they are incorruptible and immortal, no longer corruptible and mortal.
• all humans disregarded the hope for which they were created.
• God knew all would disregard that hope and disobey Him.
• from the lot of all humans who disobeyed God (disregarding the opportunity to eat from the tree of life and not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) God chose some for salvation. Those chosen for salvation from the population of otherwise sinfully dead and enslaved humans are the ones called the "elect."
• everything is for God's glory, not just the elect. God is glorified as a just God when He metes out the just recompense for disobedience, and He is glorified as a gracious God when He saves some, whether that "some" be small or large in number.

Genesis 1:31 precludes the possibility God made evil people. People became evil on their own.

Not sure quite if you mean that in answer to @Arial 's question or what. Maybe I'm trying to read more into what you are saying than what you intended it for.

 

[makesends]

Well, they're just Gospel Tracts; not the Spirit. They are beautiful feet...

Calvinists should believe in %100 Free Will. According to the WCF C3 P1 the Liberty of the Will is established as a Secondary Causation, without God offering Violence to get his way...

These are Calvinists confessing this!

This means the complete Liberty of the Human Will is established as a Secondary Cause; but it's never confessed that the Will is free as a Primary Cause. Our Will is always a Reaction, never an Action. But our Reaction is Established as being %100 Free...

I'm currently watching the Walking Dead; have you seen it? The Bad Guy is marrying all these women of their own Free Will; but they are not making Free Will decisions in the Primary sense, only in the Secondary sense. They are just trying to Survive, and will do anything; even if they don't really want to do it. In this case the Marriage is their Free Will choice; but the Bad Guy "IS" offering Violence to get his way, to get them to Marry him...

Now; the WCF Confesses that God doesn't offer Violence to get his way, like the Bad Guy offered Violence to get his way. If God gets his way without doing anything to oppose the established Free Will of the Creature, isn't the Creature's Will truly free as a Secondary Causation?

Isn't it true that your Will to Marry Christ, was as free as any other example of your freedom of Will? After Grace, that is. After Grace, your Will was %100 Free to eat cereal for breakfast; and choose Christ, right?

Sure, before Grace, the Bondage of the Will to choose Christ is true; but after Grace? Isn't the choice for Christ as equally Free as the choice to wear blue socks?

Yes, the will is free, but NOT (nor are its decisions) uncaused. The WCF says no different.

 

[Eleanor]

One thought that continually makes its way into my mind is the notion of a marriage agreed to first, but consummated only later. To me, it is the difference between the temporal vs the eternal; living in this vapor now, mortals, vs our glorified being in the solid reality of when we see Him as He is. It is for that, that we are made, and are "currently being" built. We are not yet what we will be. One way to think of it is that we are not yet —in spite of what the self-determinist assumes— complete persons.

Already, but not yet.

With all my philosophical acumen (NOT!) and piercing intellect (NOT!), I'm thinkin' it may work like this:

God decided to create physical matter sheerly for his pleasure, some of it in his image (persons) to unite with himself, again for his pleasure.

In his infinite wisdom, the best means to procuring that union was the fall and the salvation of some.

To the objection, God does not create any for damnation:
If God knows who is going to reject him, and he creates them anyway, then he is creating them for damnation.

(Let the arrows fly!)

 

[Eleanor]

Disclaimer: I don't fit this criteria ... but I'll throw my 2 cents worth anyways ...
Short answer: YES (IMO)
Longer answer and reasoning:
God is the FIRST CAUSE of ALL things and has PLANNED ALL things and everything goes according to His plan. In other words, God determines all things. Nothing/no one can change the determinations of God as He is immutable and all knowing.

Proofs:
Premise 1: Before anything existed an immutable God knew all things
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes
Conclusion: God must determine ALL THINGS as there was no other entity to glean knowledge from at one time (time being a human limitation). He determined every aspect down to the atoms of who you are and how you will take your place as a member of His elect.

Premise 1: Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign].
Conclusion: What you do does NOT affect God. God must determine ALL THINGS.

Premise 1: Acts 20:35b Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ”
Premise 2: God is more blessed than His creation
Conclusion: We give God nothing, He gives us ALL. God must determine ALL THINGS.

Aside: Note how one's method of salvation according to Reformed theology falls in line with God determines All Things. We do nothing in regards to being the cause of salvation.

The Aseity of God
God is the source of All Power and Existence moment by moment
Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36; Job 34:14-15 ... so if God could be destroyed then creation would go with Him. God causes all things; God determines all things.

God Controls Men being evidence that He determines/causes all things

• Deuteronomy 8:17-18 And you say in your heart, My power and the might of mine hand has gotten me this wealth. But you shall remember the LORD your God: for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto your fathers, as it is this day"
• Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 45:5-7; Isaiah 54:16; John 5:26;
• 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things [that have been created], and we [believers exist and have life and have been redeemed] through Him.
• Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
• Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our Potter, And we all are the work of Your hand.
• Psalm 33:10 The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He makes the thoughts and plans Of the people ineffective. 11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The thoughts and plans of His heart through all generations.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out).
• Yahda, yahda

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith: He does not need any creature he has made nor does he derive any glory from them. Instead, he demonstrates his own glory in them, by them, to them, and upon them. He alone is the source of all being, and everything is from him, through him, and to him.

The thought that you are the ultimate control of anything you do is to support Free Will. Free will disconnects you from God. You create your choices out of nothing. All these catchphrases teach some form of semi-deistic dualism because you're going to teach that God was able to create you and let go of you which contradicts Hebrews 1:3. God lets go of you metaphysically so that you can be your own ultimate power creating your choices out of nothing. This is dualism, that there is more than one ultimate power at work in the universe. Colin Sketo

That was lovely. I believe God determines all things and therefore caused you to write it; you did not create it via 'free will'. ... interesting to contemplate.

.....anyways, that's my thoughts on the subject
*giggle*
.... things get interesting when you get into theodicies ... aspects of which R.C.Sproul said was a mystery to him

Nice. . .

 

[Josheb]

Not sure quite if you mean that in answer to @Arial 's question or what. Maybe I'm trying to read more into what you are saying than what you intended it for.

Post #24 is my reply to the inquiry of the op.

The op asks, "Are the elect created to belong to Christ and is the choosing that God does choosing to create those specific persons for Christ, for His glory, and as His inheritance?" It is a two-part question, not a single solitary inquiry. It asks,

1. Are the elect created to belong to Christ?
2. Is God's choosing of the elect for His glory?

My answer to the first question is, "God created all people for the purpose of election but all disobeyed God, so it was from the self-rendered dead-in-sin from which the elect were chosen." In other words, the elect were chosen, not created separately. It's a common misconception about Reformed theology, and Calvinism more specifically. It is akin to the misguided notion God made some solely for destruction and others solely for salvation when the facts of scripture are that all were originally made good and sinless but all became not-good and sinful. All of the good and sinless could have partaken from the tree of life. None of the not-good and sinful can..... apart from God's grace. The monergist parts ways with the synergist here by believing the 1) the choice was made in eternity, not time, 2) the choice was made without considering the merits of the sinfully dead being saved from the sinfully dead state.

My answer to the second question (or second part of the op's inquiry) is, "Yes, but all things work for God's glory. God is glorified by all He does, whether it be eternal life or eternal destruction." God is glorified by both outcomes stated in Genesis 7:23. God is glorified by both outcomes in Galatians 6:7-8. Any suggestion God is not glorified by only one or the other is a false dichotomy.

A third answer could be offered to say, "To be elect is to belong to Christ and glorify God because that is the way God made (created) election to work," but that distinguishes between "election" and "elect." Here the monergist and synergist will agree that election is preset but the two will disagree and part ways over how and when the "winners" of election became/become elected. The monergist (Augustinian, Lutheran, Calvinist) will say this was decided from eternity in omniscience dependent solely on the will and purpose of the Creator and not the will, work, or merit of the creature at some time in time when the creature did something upon which his/her salvation is conditioned. Knowing all would otherwise be lost to sin and death, God graciously selected some for a different outcome. The outcome is salvation from sin and that selection - or election - makes the otherwise dead and enslaved sinner headed for destruction a member of the selected or elected, and they don't get destruction. They get eternal life. They get to partake of Christ. They get to partake of the tree of life. They still have to die (physically) but they do so with the hope and promise of resurrection by which one is raised incorruptible and immortal.

 

[makesends]

Post #24 is my reply to the inquiry of the op.

The op asks, "Are the elect created to belong to Christ and is the choosing that God does choosing to create those specific persons for Christ, for His glory, and as His inheritance?" It is a two-part question, not a single solitary inquiry. It asks,

1. Are the elect created to belong to Christ?
2. Is God's choosing of the elect for His glory?

• Are the elect created to belong to Christ?

My answer to the first question is, "God created all people for the purpose of election but all disobeyed God, so it was from the self-rendered dead-in-sin from which the elect were chosen." In other words, the elect were chosen, not created separately. It's a common misconception about Reformed theology, and Calvinism more specifically. It is akin to the misguided notion God made some solely for destruction and others solely for salvation when the facts of scripture are that all were originally made good and sinless but all became not-good and sinful. All of the good and sinless could have partaken from the tree of life. None of the not-good and sinful can..... apart from God's grace. The monergist parts ways with the synergist here by believing the 1) the choice was made in eternity, not time, 2) the choice was made without considering the merits of the sinfully dead being saved from the sinfully dead state.

You propose the logical construct (and I state it here in my words): "Since all have self-rendered themselves sinful, then it was from that group of self-rendered sinners that the elect were chosen. Therefore, it is misleading to say that they were created separately." (And by 'separately', I think you mean, as a separate group or even as separate individuals for separate purposes —not referring to 'a separate time').

But if you believe Adam's sin was imputed to all human individuals, couldn't I use the same sort of logic to say, "Since God imputed sin to all individual humans, and they are, as a result, sinners, then it was from God's choosing alone, and the fact that they are also self-rendered sinners is irrelevant to when and how he chose them?

At this point, though, I'm not sure if you agree with the idea of Adam's sin being imputed to all by God, though up till now I would have expected that you did.

I'm just not sure how the fact that they are self-rendered sinners means that God didn't create anyone specifically for one end of the other. There is a lot of Scripture that seems to me to show God as VERY particular whom he creates for what uses. And it is ultimately logical. He didn't look down to corridors of time to see that anyone would become sinful, in order to pick from the group. Nor did he wait to see if Adam would sin. I think he made each individual specifically for every use that he had in mind for them, to include their final end. I can't even imagine him picking some randomly from a group of possibles.

• Is God's choosing of the elect for His glory?

My answer to the second question (or second part of the op's inquiry) is, "Yes, but all things work for God's glory. God is glorified by all He does, whether it be eternal life or eternal destruction." God is glorified by both outcomes stated in Genesis 7:23. God is glorified by both outcomes in Galatians 6:7-8. Any suggestion God is not glorified by only one or the other is a false dichotomy.

Agreed. God's choosing of Jacob over Esau was also to demonstrate the riches of his glory, and that, before the twins had done anything good or bad.

A third answer could be offered to say, "To be elect is to belong to Christ and glorify God because that is the way God made (created) election to work," but that distinguishes between "election" and "elect." Here the monergist and synergist will agree that election is preset but the two will disagree and part ways over how and when the "winners" of election became/become elected. The monergist (Augustinian, Lutheran, Calvinist) will say this was decided from eternity in omniscience dependent solely on the will and purpose of the Creator and not the will, work, or merit of the creature at some time in time when the creature did something upon which his/her salvation is conditioned. Knowing all would otherwise be lost to sin and death, God graciously selected some for a different outcome. The outcome is salvation from sin and that selection - or election - makes the otherwise dead and enslaved sinner headed for destruction a member of the selected or elected, and they don't get destruction. They get eternal life. They get to partake of Christ. They get to partake of the tree of life. They still have to die (physically) but they do so with the hope and promise of resurrection by which one is raised incorruptible and immortal.

I don't see how this answers the question of whether or not they are created for Christ.

To me there is no escaping the simple logic: If God is First Cause, he created them. He did not at some later point decide to whom of those he created to show mercy.

 

[fastfredy0]

If, as I believe is so, I am indeed one of his and not fooling myself,

Gee, glad I'm not the only one who considers that possibility ... would "suck" to get to heaven and be told "I never knew you". A lot of well meaning people have it critically wrong.

—even if he condemns me, yet will I praise him, is the way it feels.

Well said.


Q.104 What are the duties required in the first commandment? (Westminster Shorter Catechism)
A104: The duties required in the first commandment are, the knowing and acknowledging of God to be the only true God, and our God;[1] and to worship and glorify him accordingly[2], by thinking[3], meditating[4], remembering[5], highly esteeming[6] honoring[7], adoring[8], choosing[9], loving[10], desiring[11], fearing of him;[12], believing him;[13], trusting[14], hoping[15], delighting[16], rejoicing in him;[17], being zealous for him;[18], calling upon him giving all praise and thanks[19], and yielding all obedience and submission to him with the whole man[20], being careful in all things to please him[21], and sorrowful when in anything he is offended[22], and walking humbly with him.[23]
1. 1 Chronicles 28:9; Deuteronomy 26:17; Isaiah 43:10; Jeremiah 14:22,
2. Psalm 29:2; 95:6-7; Matthew 4:10, 3. Malachi 3:16, 4. Psalm 63:6, 5. Ecclesiastes 12:1,
6. Psalm 71:19, 7. Malachi 1:6, 8. Isaiah 45:23, 9. Joshua 24:15, 22, 10. Deuteronomy 6:5,
11. Psalm 73:25, 12. Isaiah 8:13, 13. Exodus 14:31, 14. Isaiah 26:4, 15. Psalm 130:7,
16. Psalm 37:4, 17. Psalm 32:11, 18. Romans 12:11; Numbers 25:11, 19. Philippians 4:6,
20. Jeremiah 7:28; James 4:7, 21. 1 John 3:22, 22. Jeremiah 31:18; Psalm 119:136, 23. Micah 6:8

I am giving you and @Arial kudos for your God honoring statements in this thread; evidence of Christ In You.

 

[Eleanor]

 

[Eleanor]

Amen all that. Amen and amen!

I think there are more of us who have seen/felt this than even are aware of the philosophical/doctrinal implications. We know there is something there where our minds can't go for the sheer intensity of it. At least, not in this flesh, not yet.

Let me be a tad more comprehensive in my statement:

With all my philosophical acumen, piercing intellect and comprehensive apprehension (NOT! NOT! and NOT!), I'm thinkin' it may work like this:

The manifestation of God's glory, love, goodness and justice hang on this simple frame.

God created physical matter for his pleasure, some of it in his image (persons) to unite with himself, again for his pleasure.

In his infinite wisdom, the best means to procuring that union was the fall of man and the salvation of some.

To the objection, God does not create any for damnation (its response being phrased in the conceptions of the objector):
If God "knows" who "will be" rejecting him, and he "creates" them anyway, then he is creating them for damnation.

 

[Arial]

Speaking of getting some new Mods from both sides, I probably am closer to being an A'ist than y'all. I remain a 5-Point Calvinist though...

Don't the two things contradict each other at many places?

 

[Arial]

I am not sure how one defines which 'mysteries' we have no business peering into per Calvin. That being said, Job got a tongue lashing for guessing at God's motives and yet we are to "study to show thyself approved".

An analogy might explain it best.

Judge Judy is often stopping both plaintiff and defendant when they say things like, "She knows---," "They are aware of---" or even "My dog attacked their dog because he----" by saying, "Don't tell me what they knew. It calls to the operation of their mind."

We only know what is in the mind of God when He tells us what is in His mind. We don't know for example why He chose to create our world, or why He did so knowing man would commit treason against Him. What we do know because He tells us is that He knew everything about it before He created it and us. We don't know why He created everything very good and also placed the serpent in the Garden. We know that He did. We know there is no evil in Him and if there is not evil in Him then there is nothing in Him to create evil from; we know He is the only One who can create something out of nothing and yet evil exists. We don't know how or why.

We know from His word that He governs all things and is sovereign over all things, and not a grain of sand shifts without His ordaining that it do so. And we also know that He does not cause anyone to do anything evil and yet evil must happen to fulfill His purposes, or it wouldn't happen. We know that only those who are created for Christ are redeemed by Him, and yet those who He creates to not come to Christ are responsible for their own choices.

And we can posit solutions such as first and second causes, His passing over some and not all, His allowing evil by not stopping it----and there is truth in all those posits that can be obtained from His word. But they still remain somewhat of a paradox and mystery to us because we cannot penetrate the mind of God to see what He has not allowed us to see. And I suspect these things are withheld because if we were to see them in our finite condition it would literally blow our mind, as our finite mind cannot take them in. "No one can look on the face of God and live."

 

[Arial]

Hmmm.....

I read scripture to say...

• all humans were created mortal, good, and sinless, but corruptible.
• all humans were originally created to know Christ.
• all humans were created with the divine intent to transform them or, more specifically, to complete their formation so that they are incorruptible and immortal, no longer corruptible and mortal.
• all humans disregarded the hope for which they were created.
• God knew all would disregard that hope and disobey Him.
• from the lot of all humans who disobeyed God (disregarding the opportunity to eat from the tree of life and not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) God chose some for salvation. Those chosen for salvation from the population of otherwise sinfully dead and enslaved humans are the ones called the "elect."
• everything is for God's glory, not just the elect. God is glorified as a just God when He metes out the just recompense for disobedience, and He is glorified as a gracious God when He saves some, whether that "some" be small or large in number.

Genesis 1:31 precludes the possibility God made evil people. People became evil on their own.

I don't dispute anything you have said, but it is not really the thrust of the OP. Which relates to after the fall of man and the elect being created specifically for the purpose of belonging to Christ.