The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God

[Kermos]

I understand all of that and have always understood it and nothing I have ever posted should ever be construed to say otherwise. The problem is it is 1) misrepresentative, and 2) incomplete.

The reason it is misrepresentative is because NOWHERE in all of Christian thought has the term "free will" EVER mean autonomous or completely absent of all control and/or influence AND/OR free of any and all limits. People who say free will means the complete absence of all control, influence, and limits are arguing a straw man. You've been concerned with the laws of non-contradiction and fallacy of false dichotomy (neglected middle) but ignored the problems of red herring and straw man.

The reason the position you've taken is incomplete is because it assumes one condition in all arenas. It assumes all "Laws" are equally applicable in all circumstances when that may not be the case. It certainly has not been proven in this op! Now, as far as I can tell from your posts, we appear to agree, at least implicitly because we agree a person can choose his favor pizza toppings but cannot choose salvation unaided. Two different arenas (pizza, salvation) with two different sets of limits - one less deterministic and with greater liberty than the other.

Here, Josheb, you take exception to what you call "1) misrepresentative, and 2) incomplete" about another author named @Rufus' writings in respect to your writings.

Which brings me to a third point. The debate of free will specifically applies to salvation. It is a soteriological debate. Normally people understand that but synergists are often abusing monergism with straw men but applying non-soteriological volitional agency to Calvinism. All of that is out of place in this thread because this thread is NOT about human will, human volitional agency, human choices - soteriological or otherwise. This thread is about the will of God, not the will of man. This op is the third op in a series by this author that denies the uncontrolled always-at-liberty will of God.

It's not about human volition.

This is not the Arm v Cal soteriology board.



According to your post history, you dropped in Monday, added a few thoughts in this thread, a few thoughts previously in the thread on Daniel 9. Otherwise, nothing in any of @Kermos' three ops. You've come late to the party . This op was posted because of conflict arising in the previous two threads. If you read through this thread, you'll see it is very difficult to get a direct, immediate, unqualified answer to the simply, valid, very op-relevant question, "Does God have a will? Does God possess volitional agency of any kind to any degree?" Why would anyone not answer that question with an immediate unqualified, "YES!"? So, (I hope) you see this thread is not about what you've been posting.

Here, Josheb, you execute your "1) misrepresentative, and 2) incomplete" written thoughts about another author when you wrote "This op is the third op in a series by this author that denies the uncontrolled always-at-liberty will of God". Josheb, your behavior is hypocritical because you DO NOT "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you" (Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 6:31).

Here is the evidence which proves your hypocrisy. See the following for that which Lord Jesus had me write to you previously about your questions:

How about we start with something simple, basic, and fundamental.

Does God have a will? Does God possess volitional agency of any kind to any degree?

Your first question is answered in paragraph 20 where 1 Peter 2:15 is cited in the original post.

Your second question is answered in paragraphs 27 and 28 where John 15:16, John 15:19, and Mark 13:37 are quoted in the original post.

You mentioned "simple, basic, and fundamental" in regard to matters covered in the original post, so it appears to me that the matters covered in the original post exceed your "simple, basic, and fundamental" comprehension.

Did you notice, your post is devoid of Scripture?

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

I, personally, will cut you some slack because you've come late to the party. Our fellow forum member @Kermos has asserted some very unusual views and argued them with equally unusual methodology (it cannot correctly be called "logic") despite the protests to the contrary, and it does not appear there is any willingness to learn from respondents or amend the ops in any way. The "case" or "argument" (using that term in its broadest sense) begins with the premise God is attached to Himself and therefore God has a will but it is not free because anything attached cannot possibly be free. @Kermos can correct me if I have erred in presenting his position but any objective reading of all three threads shows him making these claims. The first op asserts Adam lacked a free will - a will lacking any and all volitional agency -

You misrepresented that which God caused me to compose when you wrote "The first op asserts Adam lacked a free will - a will lacking any and all volitional agency" because I never conveyed that Adam's will lacked any and all volitional agency. I have written that Adam had a will.

Your quote there exposes that you illegally equate "free-will" and "will" when you wrote "a free will - a will".

You use the unbiblical term "free will" while you erroneously call it Christian.

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.

Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by the Word of God.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

God saves us children of God from the wrath of God by God's grace for God's glory! Praise be to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

continued to post #62

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #61

despite being made in God's image, because Adam was sinful. He was subjected to futility because of his disobedience.

You misrepresented that which God caused me to compose when you wrote "despite being made in God's image, because Adam was sinful". I conveyed Adam was evil prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), and that Adam was sinful after he disobeyed God's command. God caused me to examine the meaning of Adam being created in the image and likeness of God in the Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation? thread original post.

Various post-disobedient verses have been erroneously, eisegetically, irrationally, fallaciously applied to the pre-disobedient Adam. Verses pertaining to something that happened long after the beginning have been applied to the Adam "from the beginning of creation."

You misrepresented that which God caused me to compose when you wrote that it was "erroneously, eisegetically, irrationally, fallaciously applied to the pre-disobedient Adam" when I conveyed that the Apostle Paul includes the time before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) in the following because Paul established the timeframe endpoints with "the whole creation" and "until now" (Romans 8:22) for the exclusion of Adam's willpower being involved with Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food as per Paul's writing pf "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20); therefore, "from the beginning of creation" is the Truth (John 14:6) despite your preaching to the contrary.

That is the history and context for "free will" in this thread. It has nothing to do with salvific free will.

There are FOUR (4, like your account number) instances of you, Josheb, you hypocritically proclaiming "1) misrepresentative, and 2) incomplete" thoughts about another author.

As a reminder, Josheb, in your opening paragraph you took exception to what you call "1) misrepresentative, and 2) incomplete" about another author named @Rufus' writings in respect to your writings.

"Free-will" for God is completely absent from all of Scripture, so free-willian philosophy is non-Christian.

"Free-will" for man is completely absent from all of Scripture, so free-willian philosophy is non-Christian.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[Josheb]

Here, Josheb,

You had your chance many weeks and many posts ago, and you are still using verses about post-disobedient conditions and verses about sinful humans to define God's will and God volitional agency. Posts 61 and 62 repeat and rehash things already posted and already addressed. The question whether or not God has a will at still hasn't received a straightforward direct unqualified "Yes," or "No," answer without obfuscating commentary, and you're still posting adversarially.

I'm not interested.



Does God have a will? Yes, or no?

 

[Kermos]

@Rufus,

Let me see if I cannot establish some common ground for/between the two of us.

• God has a will.
• God's will is not under the control of anyone other than God Himself and He and He alone, is able to do whatever He so desires (given any limits inherent in HIs character). God has a will, God has a will that is free, and God alone has a will that is free.
• Humans were created with a will. They were created to be volitional creatures with volitional agency; the ability to make real choices.
• Human volition is not free, it is not without control or influence AND humans are not able to choose anything always as they desire. There are, instead a myriad of controls AND limits on human volition, some of them divine (God can always over-rule man any time He chooses) and some of them temporal (time and space are temporal limits with deterministic controls).
• The biggest control AND the biggest limiter on human will is sin. God permits man to do many things sin does not permit. Sin is so egregious in its control over the human will it has made humanity dead and enslaved. Sinful man is not free and does not possess anywhere near the level of volitional agency sinless man possesses.
• Prior to Genesis 3:6 Adam, and by inference the rest of humanity, was sinless. Genesis 1:31 declares Adam good and Romans 5 describes how he was also sinless prior to his act of disobedience. Adam was good AND sinless prior to Genesis 3:6-7.
• AFTER Genesis 3:6-7 Adam's condition changed and with Adam all of humanity AND the world in which we live changed. We went from being good and sinless with a will unfettered by sin to being not-good and sinful with a will now fettered by sin and all the sinful conditions existing in the world because of one man's disobedience.
• The effects of sin have not eradicated the will. Human will still exists.
• The effects of sin have limited the agency of the human will.
• The chief limitation is that sinful man cannot choose God salvifically anymore. This is what we now call "Total Depravity," and it is not an Arm v Cal position because Arminius agreed: man in his sinful state is incapable of doing anything that might please God salvifically. Man cannot in his own power do any salvific good unaided by God.
• Other controls and their limitations are the linear nature of time and space for humans. Our intellectual faculties do not permit us to know or wholly understand ALL of the predicate influences coming to bear on any given moment of choice. Neither can we understand all the possible consequence on all the possible others any one single choice might have on others throughout the time line. We are completely ignorant of all those controls and others not stated.
• Despite the above, the classic monergist position (as articulated in the Westminster Confession of Faith) is that God ordained all things from eternity without doing violence to the human will AND without doing violence to the contingencies of secondary causes. In other words, even monergists implicitly affirm the existence of the human will the existence of secondary causes, and the existence of contingencies. It does not matter whether you agree; I am simply stating doctrine affirming both volitional agency and controls and limits so that no one mistakenly thinks the term "free will" literally means free. It does not and never has.
• Even Pelagians in their misguided heretical views believe human volition exists and exists in a compromised stated once a person has sinned.
• Not only does God have a will not controlled by others that is able to work and will as He desires, the position He lacks either is both a normative and statistical outlying position NOT representative of orthodox, historical Christianity as a whole.
• Because of sin, Man is in need of salvation from that condition of sin and the commensurate wrath of God but no matter how strongly, how frequently or how enduringly man wills otherwise, he cannot save Himself from sin.
• God, because He has a will, and a will that is free, has freely chosen to save some.

I assume that at least some of that received a hearty "Amen!"

Most of it has nothing to do with this op. This op is about the unchangeableness of God and His will, not humanity's. This op claims God's will is not free. This op states there are only two options, either a man's will is controlled by God, or a man's will is controlled by the man. The op says nothing about the human will controlled by sin. Logically speaking, the op has implicitly argued when a man's will is controlled by God it is a human will controlled by a God who Himself does not have free will and cannot do as He pleases. The last sentence of this op claims every person has a will that is either self-willed or a will in Christ, and in ALL CAPS the op states,

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL. NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

No scripture states The Creator exists external to creation but that is, nonetheless, the undeniable, inescapable, logically necessary conclusion to "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." So we find the op contains a lot of flaws, including but not limited to arguments from silence, begged questions, false causes, false equivalence, false dichotomies/neglected middles, straw men and red herring (no one actually believes free will is completely absent any and all control or limits). The dissent has been uniform (no one agrees with any of the three ops), although different respondents have approached it in different ways. The ensuing defense has added to the problem of faulty reasoning by adding ad hominem, loaded questions, shifting onus, and appeals to purity (no true Scotsman). I tell you this for three reasons: 1) if you're going to engage the op expect more of the same, 2) you seem to have some knowledge of logic and I appreciate that, and 3) I share that knowledge and appreciation.

Read all three opening posts. Reading all three threads in their entirety isn't necessary for the sake of this op (even though this op is predicated on the first two and one he did not author). The opening ops speak for themselves.

The Holy Scripture is inspired, inerrant, and infallible!

If you believed that the Holy Scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), then you would cease adding free-will into Holy Scripture because you would be terrorized with fear about the sin of practicing the lawlessness of adding free will into the Word of God where free-will does not exist (Matthew 7:21-23). The Word of God is Life (John 6:63, John 24:6). Praise be to Lord Jesus!

While the Bible is inerrant, you wrote "No scripture states The Creator exists external to creation", yet the Lord God Almighty states:

I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God
(Isaiah 45:5)
​

And, the Word of God declares:

Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me
(Isaiah 43:10)
​

Therefore you are in error with "No scripture states The Creator exists external to creation", and your error leads your errant thinking that you can add free will into the Holy Scripture where it does not exist.

Since the Bible is infallible, then your self-willed, fallible man additions of free-will into the Holy Scripture results in a great fall (see the word fall inside of the word fallible) because it is written:

do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar
(Proverbs 30:6)
​

And, of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote:

nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life
(Revelation 21:27)
​

Notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human fallably adding to Holy Scripture is the human lying.

NO HOLY SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

NO HOLY SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

I know that the original post is comprehensible because fastfredy0 expressed a clear conclusion of the original post quite readily, but you cast misrepresentation against the original post (see this proof post) again and again, and you insist upon unnecessarily repeating your questions which are answered in the very original post that you misrepresent.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[Josheb]

NO HOLY SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

No scripture states God does not have free will.

Every single op is argued from a fallacy = the fallacy of argumentum ex silentio. All three of them. All three of them are rife with other mistakes in reasoning and exegesis as well but the protest, "No Scriptures states X !" particularly nonsensical. Scripture does not state God existed prior to creation but that is necessarily the logical conclusion of His having created creation. Arguing God has 42 heads, three arms, four tails, and wears a robe of magenta and lime green slime from the mucus of a Lower Gerzakian winged turtle because that is nowhere stated in scripture is nonsense.

Arguments from silence are always and everywhere fallacious.

"the argument from silence is a fallacy of weak induction that treats the absence of evidence as evidence itself."​

The protest "No Scripture! No Scripture! No Scripture!" can be repeated ad nauseam but the protest does not make the position argued valid, veracious, true, or correct.




I tried to start with the most basic concepts (does God have a will? Is God self-existent? Define "free." What controls God?) and walk through the scriptures one premise at a time only to be attacked and reported again and again.

NO HOLY SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

Psalm 115 states otherwise.

Psalm 115:3
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

So does Psalm 135

Psalm 135:6
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and in all the ocean depths.

In fact, there are a bunch of scriptures reporting God's ability to do whatever He pleases.

Job 42:2
I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.

Daniel 4:35
“All the inhabitants of the earth are of no account, but He does according to His will among the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can fend off His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’

Romans 9:18, 20
So then, He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires............ On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Ephesians 1:10-11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will....

He cannot do whatever he pleases/desires/wills/chooses if not free to do so.

NO HOLY SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

That is demonstrably incorrect.

• God has a will.
• God's will and His will alone is unfettered, not under the control of anyone or anything else.
• God thinks, feels, wills, and does whatever He desires and nothing or anyone can make Him do otherwise.

All three ops are built on mistaken content and poorly reasoned (content and method).

 

[Kermos]

Dualism - In theology, the concept of dualism assumes that there are two separate entities—good and evil—which are equally powerful (What is dualism? | GotQuestions.org)

No. "Good" is not the same as "evil".
"Evil" is not a thing, it is the lack of some "goodness" in a volitional being.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-unchangeableness-of-god-and-the-will-of-god.1440/post-61253

I think that when the definition of Hard Determinism I quoted refers to dualism and deism it is purposely refuting the idea that dualism or deism exist as entities that are self determining. Many people think that is God somehow disappeared that the current laws of science would work without God (deism) or that God does not determine evil that occurs; rather, the devil or whatever does so (dualism).
Colossians 1:17; Job 34:14-15; Romans 11:36 refer to God creating all thing, causes them to continue to exist and that all things would cease to exist if God "left"

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-unchangeableness-of-god-and-the-will-of-god.1440/post-61257

You wrote:

"Evil" is not a thing.
​

in such a way that it appears to be your belief.

Since the Good God created evil (a thing)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
(Isaiah 45:7)
​

then I cannot agree with your statement as you presented it.

I believe the Word of God depicts both good as a thing and evil as a thing.

"No one is good except God alone" (The Word of God, Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good and man is exclusively evil (when man is apart from Christ).

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him" (The Way, Matthew 7:11), so the Christ told His disciples that His disciples are evil, yet the Son chooses to reveal the Father to His disciples (Matthew 11:27; John 15:16; John 15:19), so the Holy Spirit imparts good into Christ's disciples resulting in the ability to ask the Good God according to God's Will (John 3:3).

With all of that being written, the term free-will is frequently used improperly to compare God with man's will.

IMAGINE a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting through the curves.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to navigate the streets". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

On the other hand, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car" "engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[fastfredy0]

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to navigate the streets". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

The law of causality states that every effect has a cause. God is not an effect for He is eternal.
God caused the earth to have minerals and caused man to have intelligence and caused man to use minerals to build parts for cars and put them together. God caused other men to drive tow trucks and cause men to have desires that controls what they do. Relative to God man has NO freedom. God has determined all things and knows all things due to His determinating all things. If man is free from God then God cannot know what man will do in the future for knowledge requires a source and at one time man was nothing and nothing comes from nothing.

You wrote:

"Evil" is not a thing.
in such a way that it appears to be your belief.

Since the Good God created evil (a thing)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
(Isaiah 45:7)
then I cannot agree with your statement as you presented it.

I believe the Word of God depicts both good as a thing and evil as a thing.

I think I see your point and have relevant verses to back you up. I come back with:
You can not demonstrate evil without a host to perpetrate it. Evil is the lack of goodness like darkness is the lack of light; darkness like evil is nothing, it is not a thing.

Evil is nothing. It is not a thing that has existence. It is an action of something that is a thing. When I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil, but evil then is an activity of some being. It has no being of itself.
Augustine and Thomas Aquinas use the words negation and privation to define evil. Negation talks in terms of what something is not. For example, we say God is infinite which means He is not finite. Evil in this sense can only be defined against the backdrop of what is good. In biblical terms, evil is defined by words like ungodliness, unrighteousness, injustice, so that the term is used as the negation, the opposite of the positive thing that is being affirmed, so that injustice or un-justness can only be understood against the previous concept of justice. Unrighteousness can only be recognized as unrighteousness against the background of righteousness as the standard by which unrighteousness can be recognized and can be defined. Evil is parasitic. It can only survive in a host. I can’t be known in of itself as some independent being, but can only be known and understood against the positive standard. Like a parasite, if the host dies, the parasite dies with it as the parasite (evil) depends on the host for its existence. So, evil can’t be defined or described except against the background of good.
Reformers said the sin is a negation or evil is negation, evil is privation, but it is also ‘privatio actuosa’ meaning that though evil is not something that exists in the of itself, it is real, and its effects and its impact are devastating because real beings act out real evil though evil is not independent, nevertheless it is real. R.C. Sproul

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

There is no such thing as self-will if by that you mean you determine independent of outside influence what your desire are. Your will/desires are determined by God. God creates your desires and you act according to your desires that you did not chose, that you cannot chose for one has no foundation to chose a particular desire for we are created beings. From nothing nothing comes and at one time you were nothing and nothing cannot determine its desires which in turn controls your will to do A or B.

 

[Ghada]

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will."

This is accurate enough.

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

This is an absurd corruption. God having free will, does not conclude God ever changes His will to do good, in order to do evil.

Their argument is made circular by negating free will: Free will must conclude in doing evil, therefore God cannot have free will, lest He do evil, nor create man with free will, lest He create men to do evil.

Only anti-free will predestinators would speak of God corrupting His own free will to do evil, so that He creates man in His own image to do the same.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

Another absurdity, that is only made by someone who foolishly believes Jesus can be chosen to be their personal christ and savior.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you"

No man chooses Jesus for their own personal christ. Jesus is the only true Christ of God. He is not one of many christs and gods that pagans choose from, for their own personal guardian and household god.

• 
  
• "I chose you out of the world"

God commands all men everywhere to repent for His mercy's sake, and them that do so, are chosen for mercy and salvation from disobedience to God.

Many are called to repent, but few repent and are chosen. Jesus Christ chooses them that repent, out of the world of the unrepentant.

The elect are thus chosen to be sanctified from the world of disobedient children.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God

Free will is not achieved, but exercised. Having free will is manifest by man exercising free will on earth, unlike the brute beasts of the field.

Doctrine of Scripture only reveals how and why man alone on earth has free will, which is by creation in the image of God, and for the purpose of doing His will on earth.

'Achieving' something by doctrinal argument alone, is just a game for rhetoricians and sophists.

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

This is another absurd conclusion, that is not by free will. Having free will is not the power to do both our own will against God, and do the will of God at the same time. Having free will is the power to choose one or the other, including the power to return to one or the other.

Anti-free will predestinators believe men are prechosen and created by God to only do one will or the other in life, without free will to turn from one's one will to the will of God, or to turn from the will of God to their own.

All men created by God come into the world lightened by Christ to do the will of God, but all men have turned from the good to do the evil.

Now any man can freely choose to repent of their deeds, and turn to the risen Lord Jesus Christ to be delivered from the lust of their own will, and be set free again by newbirth to choose the right way of the Lord Christ Jesus.

Men that sin still have free will to do good or evil deeds, but by bondage of lust, they no longer have freedom of will by creation and birth to serve the Lord with a pure heart.

 

[Ghada]

I believe in hard determinism.

I apreciate plain speaking, including when it's wrong.

When it comes to man's "default state" I believe God gave man his "default state"; otherwise, you're back to circular logic.God creates your desires and you act according to your desires that you did not chose, that you cannot chose for one has no foundation to chose a particular desire for we are created beings.

So, God becomes the Author of evil doing on earth? Not the devil?

The great lie of predetermism is that the true God and Creator, must create and make some people to do evil, since He predetermines who will do good or evil. God becomes double hearted in His creation, by choosing to create some to do good unto life, and create others to do evil unto destruction.

It rejects the revelation of Scripture, that Jesus Christ makes all things good, and lightens every man the same coming into the world.

It also rejects the Scripture that God cannot be tempted with sin, nor tempts any man to sin, so that no man can say, "God made me do it, because He made me this way."

The only predetermined will of God the true Light, is that all men and women created in His image, should freely have pleasure in pleasing Him in this life, and forever.

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

The only God with the predetermined will for anyone to do evil, is the god of this world.

Eph 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

God's will does not work to do evil, nor is His will working in them that do evil.

As I said, I do apreciate plain speaking. Not all predetermists will openy preach their God and Christ purposely wills people to do evil.

Even though, that God and Christ's name certainly isn't Jesus Christ, who never purposes nor wills any angel nor man from the beginning, to do evil and perish from the presence of God and the Father.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Ghada]

The law of causality states that every effect has a cause.

And the argument for God the Creator for being the cause of men doing evil, is a false accusation against Jesus Christ.

God caused the earth to have minerals and caused man to have intelligence and caused man to use minerals to build parts for cars and put them together.

This is true with natural things of this life, since Christ is the Maker of all things in the world, and nothing is made without Him.

However, every lie of the devil and man is made without Christ.

cause men to have desires that controls what they do. Relative to God man has NO freedom.

And God does not cause any man to have lust controlling him in rebellion to God.

In the natural things, no creature on earth has power nor freedom to overrule the laws of nature. In the spiritual things, every angel and man is created with power to overrule the law of God and do evil.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mixing natural and spiritual things, such as works of machinery and good or evil works, is amoral relativism of natural man, that rejects the things of the Spirit. Making a cracked cup is not a sin against the Spirit of life. And sinning against God is not a mechanical error.

If man is free from God

It's because he chooses to be free from His righteousness.

Rom 6:20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

If man is free from God, then God cannot know what man will do in the future for knowledge requires a source

This is the problem with the natural man's philosophy, that disregards the spiritual things of God revealed in Scripture.

The source of God's knowledge of all things coming to pass, is not by predetermining all things, but is by watching all things come to pass.

Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.

Ecc 5:8If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth.

His knowledge therefore is by watching from on high. His foreknoweldge is revealed by the mystery of the Godhead in the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God the Word knows all things coming to pass by watching them, and God's foreknowledge of all things is by the Word being with God in the beginning. The watching Word was with God in the beginning.

Gal 3:8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Prophecy of God does not determine what will come to pass, but is by foreseeing things watched.

God's omniscience is seeing things done at all times, including the spiritual things of the heart. God's omniscient foreknowledge is the all-seeing Word being with God in the beginning.

 

[fastfredy0]

Even though, that God and Christ's name certainly isn't Jesus Christ, who never purposes nor wills any angel nor man from the beginning, to do evil and perish from the presence of God and the Father.

God knows all things future and past.
God knew creating men that they would sin and He willed to create them knowing this fact. God willed that there would be evil.

God is all powerful. He can, if He so chooses, create a world will no evil. This is evident in that 2/3s of the angels have never sinned. This is evident in that redeemed men after death will no longer sin. God wanted evil to exist or there would be none.

God can stop evil:
Genesis 20:6 Then in the dream God replied to him [Abimelech concerning Abraham’s wife], “Yes, I know that you have done this
with a clear conscience. That is why I have kept you from sinning against me and why I did not allow you to touch her

God is not doing wrong to cause men to be troubled
Exodus 4:11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I,
the Lord? If man causes someone to be deaf or blind it is sin; if God does causes deafness or blindness, it is not sin.

God intentionally sends creatures with the intent that they do evil
Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem, [which aided him in the killing of his brethren ]
1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord “put a lying spirit in the mouth” of Ahab’s prophets God wills that the perfidious Ahab should be deceived;
the devil offers his agency for that purpose, and is sent with a definite command to be a lying spirit in the mouth of all the
prophets (2 Kings 22:20). If the blinding and infatuation of Ahab is a judgment from God, the fiction of bare permission is at
an end; for it would be ridiculous for a judge only to permit, and not also to decree, what he wishes to be done at the very time
that he commits the execution of it to his ministers.

God always gets His way
Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have
planned, so it will stand—

Amos 3:6 Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?

I think we both agree that God is perfect in all His ways ... we don't agree as to what His ways are, but then "who knows the heart of God.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven (not man's will be done on earth)

This is not a pleasant topic ... you can have the last word if you so please.

 

[Ghada]

You can not demonstrate evil without a host to perpetrate it. Evil is the lack of goodness like darkness is the lack of light; darkness like evil is nothing, it is not a thing.

This is true in one sense, but is carried to far. There is no sin 'nature' or 'spirit' independent of one committing sin. Sin is not in the air, so that it is independent of the one breathing it. Sin is only in the heart of the one lusting for it.

However once again, counter to natural amoral philosophy, evil darkness is not nothing, as is natural darkness without light. The darkness and death of the soul by lust and is, is spiritually made by resisting God and His light.

Jhn 1:5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Spiritual darkness is the person that knowingly rejects coming to the light, it refuses to comprehend the necessity of repenting of dead works.

Natural darkness is nothing without light. Spiritual darkness is never nothing, but is always something evil against God's truth and good will.

And further, without repentance, that evil darkness be forever cast out from the light, Spirit, and fellowship of God.

Mat 25:28For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jde 1:12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The terror of the Lord's judgment is being black darkness forever with no hope of light and life in Christ Jesus. By the flesh in this life, that terror can be denied in the minds of them that do evil, but only forestalled until the grave.

If the wicked purpose to walk in darkness on earth unto the grave, then they will be wander in utter darkness forever from the face of God and the Lamb.

Evil is nothing.

Evil always is something spiritually against God. If there is no evil, it is because it is all good.

Only nothing is nothing. And nothing is neither evil nor good.

 

[Ghada]

Your will/desires are determined by God.

Not the evil ones. God has no desire nor will to do evil, nor does He tempt any man to do evil, much less make them by nature to do so..

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
All things were and still are created for God's pleasure, and nothing is created by God for His displeasure.

The lie of God creating any creature with the desire and will to displease Him, is for unrepentant fool that accuses God of their own lust and evil by "making me that way".

nothing cannot determine its desires which in turn controls your will to do A or B.

Sinful man can. It's called a person's lust of heart, that controls the will to do unrighteousness.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God does not put lust in the heart, nor does the devil.

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Eze 28:15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Like Lucifer the first angel that sinned, it's a man's own lust that entices him to sin against the Lord. And like the angels that sinned, man seeks to be gods independent of the good will and pleasure of their Creator.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The power of free will in man created in God's image, is to choose to become as gods on earth, rather than be sons of God in the resurrection unto life.

 

[makesends]

Many people preach that God has a free-will.

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

A Will Requires A Host​

First, the definition of free must be considered.

Free denotes:

1. of autonomy:
   • (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
   • (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
2. of property:
   • (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
   • (verb) give away, sacrifice.

The subject is not of property regarding free-will, so the subject is focused of autonomy regarding free-will.

The word "free" represents a relative concept, as shown in the following paragraph; in other words, a person is "free" from "something".

A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from being captives of the tyranny of the King of Great Britain per the U.S. Declaration of Independence), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).

Second, the definition of free-will must be considered.

Free-will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.

The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:

• a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person's will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person's will is dependent upon man (self-will, 2 Peter 2:9-10). No other will exists for a person; moreover, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal King Jesus Christ's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.

In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.

THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

This sounds to me remarkably like Cruden's concordance. Have you a link, citation?

 

[makesends]

You misrepresented that which God caused me to compose

You need to drop, and that right now, this notion of blaming God for your representations of the facts. I don't disagree that God in some respect causes absolutely everything that happens, but to claim God is the source for (cause of?) your particular narrative is WAY over the top. You do not write scripture, and your mistakes are not God's.

 

[Ghada]

God is not doing wrong to cause men to be troubled
Exodus 4:11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I,
the Lord? If man causes someone to be deaf or blind it is sin; if God does causes deafness or blindness, it is not sin.

The argument is about God creating souls of men to do evil, not about natural bodies born blind, deaf, or deformed.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The nature of the flesh has nothing to do with the created soul and spirit of men and women.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

God intentionally sends creatures with the intent that they do evil

The argument is about God creating men evil, not about God troubling evil men with their own evil.

Rom 11:9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

2Th 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

If the blinding and infatuation of Ahab is a judgment from God,

The argument is about God creating men to do evil, not about God bringing judgment to evil men.

The blinding of Ahab was by his own lust and unbelief, and his death was by his own willingness to believe a lie and be damned.

Jhn 1:8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jesus Christ lightens every man coming into the world. He does not create any man blind to the good, and lusting for the evil.

God always gets His way
Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have
planned, so it will stand—

Amos 3:6 Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?

The argument is about God ceating men with intent to do evil, not about God intending to judge the evil doers.

The true God and Jesus Christ creates all men to do good for His pleasure.

Any teaching of a God and Christ that creates men to do evil, is that of a false god and evil christ.

 

[Ghada]

for it would be ridiculous for a judge only to permit, and not also to decree, what he wishes to be done at the very time
that he commits the execution of it to his ministers.

It's unjust trial law for a judge to permit evidence, and also decree it must be accepted as proof of guilt.

In the trial court of Ahab, he had to first believe the permitted lie and then act on it, in order to die by his own lust, blindness, and folly.

Only a predeterminist would frame a permit, as a decree, where the one in life's trial has no freedom to choose the truth or lie, but is decreed to believe the lie and be damned.

God permits free will to man by creation in His own image. God then judges men by their chosen works.

Jhn 1:8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

And all men come into the world lighted by Christ, so that all children of men begin with His decree to seek and do good. The Maker Jesus Christ is opposed to a predeterminist's evil Christ creating men to do evil.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Eze 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jesus Christ creates all men for His pleasure, and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, that turn from His light to walk in darkness.

Only an evil Christ would create evil men for his pleasure, and then take pleasure in destroying them, that with pleasure he created for destruction.

I think we both agree that God is perfect in all His ways ...

Not any God and Christ that creates any creature evil, with the intent to make them do it.

we don't agree as to what His ways are,

Exactly. None of the true God Jesus Christ ways are evil, nor creates any evil creature to do evil.

but then "who knows the heart of God.

All who believe His Scriptures of truth know His heart.

Psa 107:8 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

Creating men to do evil unto destruction is only a wonderful work of an evil creator. And no man so damned from the womb would ever praise such an evil lord for making him that way.

Only those who believe lies about the true God and Jesus Christ the righteous, blind themselves to His pure heart, holy ways, and good creating pleasure.

This is not a pleasant topic ...

I know. It never is when anyone wants to blame God for men doing evil, especially their own by accusing Him of "making them that way."

you can have the last word if you so please.

I'll let the Lord do so:

Gen 1:27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Jhn 1:8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Eze 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Psa 81:13Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!

 

[Kermos]

The op claims God does not have a free will and its author will not answer the question, "Does God have a will?" without qualification and ad hominem. Maybe your voice will be the voice that persuades him to reconsider the op.

I addressed your question in post #3.

You believe God has a "free will", and you believe God created man with a free-will like God's "free will", and the antithesis of "free" is "captive", so, by extension of your use of "free", you believe there is some other god that can take God captive.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[makesends]

I addressed your question in post #3.

You believe God has a "free will", and you believe God created man with a free-will like God's "free will", and the antithesis of "free" is "captive", so, by extension of your use of "free", you believe there is some other god that can take God captive.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

Who are you answering here — @Josheb , or the OP? I don't think you understand Josh's position.

He doesn't begin to believe that some other god, or anything else, can make God do anything, inhibit God nor take him captive. Josh has consistently shown that God is absolutely sovereign.

Nor does logic reduce what he does say, to such a thing. He has not yet, to my knowledge, said anything that contradicts God's sovereignty. Whether or not you represent what he says correctly, that God created man with a free-will like God's "free will", how does the antithesis of 'free' being 'captive' by extension mean that some other god can take God captive? Does extending 'free' imply the antithesis? Hardly. Particularly, when it is God we are talking about!

I myself don't follow what he was saying, so I have to figure it out.

 

[Kermos]

What in the world is a "detached will"? Explain please.

As explained in the original post, a "detached will" is exactly the same thing as a "free will".

And what do you mean that "a will requires a host"?

Your will, @Rufus, requires that you exist; your will is integral to you. Your will is not "free from you"; therefore, your will cannot be your free-will; however, your will can be your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

"Self-will" is not stated in 2Pet 2:9-10 either. And actually, this passage supports my argument that man is a free moral agent, which I very carefully and narrowly defined the term "free" to mean that all God's moral agents choices ultimately derive from within them and and are not driven by or contingent upon forces from without. (In other words, this freedom of which I speak is "freedom FROM", which should not be confused or conflated with "freedom to".) And the passages I cited about God's free moral agency biblically support this definition of "free". But since you disagree with this, then I pose the same kinds of questions I asked Josheb yesterday: Who or what determines or controls or directs God's choices? Who or what, for example, forced God to create anything in the first place? Or who or what determines, controls or directs God's choices about whom he will save and whom will not save? With this last question, I leave you with this passage:

Rom 9:14-21
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV

Sounds like sovereign free will to me.

And to just be fair and balanced, it is said of man:

Prov 4:23
23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do.
NLT

I used this translation because it poignantly expresses the very same idea that Jesus taught in Mat 12:35; 15:19.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-unchangeableness-of-god-and-the-will-of-god.1440/post-61320

Your first sentence there "'Self-will' is not stated in 2Pet 2:9-10" is anti-truth for here is the Apostle Peter's writing:

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties
(2 Peter 2:9-10).
​

Your "'Self-will' is not stated in 2Pet 2:9-10" literally reviles the angelic majesties as recorded in 2 Peter 2:9-10.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!