The state of Old Testament saints

[Carbon]

Were Old Testament believers, prior to Christ's coming, reconciled with God, fully justified by a true saving faith, and did they have the full forgiveness of sins; or were they in an unreconciled state, not justified by faith, and without the full forgiveness of sins?

 

[Sereni-tea]

Were Old Testament believers, prior to Christ's coming, reconciled with God, fully justified by a true saving faith, and did they have the full forgiveness of sins; or were they in an unreconciled state, not justified by faith, and without the full forgiveness of sins?

The Old Testament believers were given a mechanism to live in a right relationship with God. The Israelites were given the promised land and the Temple in which God dwelt and ruled over them. By rule, I don't mean as a dictator, but instead He protected them, nourished them and provided for them. He was to be their God and they were to be His people. Yes, they sinned and they did not have the Holy Spirit in the way believers today do. But their sacrificial system provided them with a means of restoring their relationship with God. (It was of course a shadow pointing to Christ.) If they had remained faithful to God, trusted Him, they would have remained in the land and in a right relationship with Him.

But they chased after other gods and so God removed His presence from the Temple and exiled them, just as He exiled Adam and Eve from the Garden. But even in exile He promised to restore them into relationship with Him. And He did. He brought the exiles back (a sign of forgiveness) but His presence did not come back into the Temple. It was of course not until the "Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us" that God's presence would return.

Today we think of salvation as a very individual thing, but for the Israelites it was a much more corporate thing and I think that is the way it is expressed in the Old Testament. Even so, God knew who was faithful to Him and who wasn't. At one point He tells Elijah who was dispairing that He had reserved some who had not bowed to Baal. There was always a remnant who remained faithful, even in exile.

 

[Carbon]

The Old Testament believers were given a mechanism to live in a right relationship with God. The Israelites were given the promised land and the Temple in which God dwelt and ruled over them. By rule, I don't mean as a dictator, but instead He protected them, nourished them and provided for them. He was to be their God and they were to be His people. Yes, they sinned and they did not have the Holy Spirit in the way believers today do. But their sacrificial system provided them with a means of restoring their relationship with God. (It was of course a shadow pointing to Christ.) If they had remained faithful to God, trusted Him, they would have remained in the land and in a right relationship with Him.

But they chased after other gods and so God removed His presence from the Temple and exiled them, just as He exiled Adam and Eve from the Garden. But even in exile He promised to restore them into relationship with Him. And He did. He brought the exiles back (a sign of forgiveness) but His presence did not come back into the Temple. It was of course not until the "Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us" that God's presence would return.

Today we think of salvation as a very individual thing, but for the Israelites it was a much more corporate thing and I think that is the way it is expressed in the Old Testament. Even so, God knew who was faithful to Him and who wasn't. At one point He tells Elijah who was dispairing that He had reserved some who had not bowed to Baal. There was always a remnant who remained faithful, even in exile.

As usual sister, your posts are very thoughtful and thought provoking. I’m not sure I agree with all, if I understand your points but that’s alright. I’m going to read it a few more times.

 

[Sereni-tea]

As usual sister, your posts are very thoughtful and thought provoking. I’m not sure I agree with all, if I understand your points but that’s alright. I’m going to read it a few more times.

Let me know where we disagree. I'm not really sure I expressed things very clearly or that I answered your questions.

 

[LeviR]

Were Old Testament believers, prior to Christ's coming, reconciled with God, fully justified by a true saving faith, and did they have the full forgiveness of sins; or were they in an unreconciled state, not justified by faith, and without the full forgiveness of sins?

You are speaking of the Jews correct? The Jews who were of the faith of Abraham were saved just as he. By faith in the promise God made to Abraham, before the giving of the law.

 

[Alive]

We have some hints here…
“By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going. By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. Therefore even from one man, and one who was as good as dead at that, there were born descendants who were just as the stars of heaven in number, and as the innumerable grains of sand along the seashore.

All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen and welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. And indeed if they had been thinking of that country which they left, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and the one who had received the promises was offering up his only son; it was he to whom it was said, “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE NAMED.” He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.”

(Hebrews 11:8-22 NAS20)

Accordance

accordance.bible

 

[Carbon]

The Old Testament believers were given a mechanism to live in a right relationship with God. The Israelites were given the promised land and the Temple in which God dwelt and ruled over them. By rule, I don't mean as a dictator, but instead He protected them, nourished them and provided for them. He was to be their God and they were to be His people. Yes, they sinned and they did not have the Holy Spirit in the way believers today do. But their sacrificial system provided them with a means of restoring their relationship with God. (It was of course a shadow pointing to Christ.) If they had remained faithful to God, trusted Him, they would have remained in the land and in a right relationship with Him.

But they chased after other gods and so God removed His presence from the Temple and exiled them, just as He exiled Adam and Eve from the Garden. But even in exile He promised to restore them into relationship with Him. And He did. He brought the exiles back (a sign of forgiveness) but His presence did not come back into the Temple. It was of course not until the "Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us" that God's presence would return.

Today we think of salvation as a very individual thing, but for the Israelites it was a much more corporate thing and I think that is the way it is expressed in the Old Testament. Even so, God knew who was faithful to Him and who wasn't. At one point He tells Elijah who was dispairing that He had reserved some who had not bowed to Baal. There was always a remnant who remained faithful, even in exile.

I believe the OT believers have been reconciled with God, and have been fully justified by a saving faith. And their sins were fully forgiven. If all the sins of God's elect were imputed unto Christ, those both in the OT and the NT, all who are in Christ are righteous before God and have total forgiveness.

All is the same in the old and the new, for one example, justification by faith is spoken of in the OT, For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Rom 4:3.

There are numerous OT scriptures also.


I think we mostly agree after rereading.