The soul before conversion.

[Carbon]

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. John 6:63

In salvation, the Holy Spirit's first gracious and divine act is - The breathing of spiritual life in the soul. This must be regarded as an operation preceding all others.

Unfortunately, the doctrine of regeneration preached by most, especially in our day differs so much from the doctrine that the apostles and the reformers preached.
Modern Christianity has forgotten an important aspect of salvation, which is the "Total Depravity of man." Unfortunately, the doctrine of Total Depravity today is greatly modified, if not absolutely denied.

I would like to propose in this thread a simple and scriptural delineation of the doctrine of regeneration, the office of the Holy Spirit in its production, and some of the holy effects as traced in the life of a believer.


I'm not looking for a fierce debate. I'm hoping for a friendly, thoughtful discussion/debate.

My only hope is to give the glory to Whom it belongs. The Triune God.

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration is a work standing alone and distinct from all the other operations of the Spirit.
It should be carefully distinguished from conversion, adoption, justification, and sanctification.
Yet, "it must be first" to form the basis of them all.

Example: There could be no conversion without the "principle of life" in the soul. And isn't conversion the exorcize of spiritual power implanted in man? There couldn't be any sense of adoption outside of the new nature. Without being born of the spirit there could be no comforting sense of acceptance until the mind has passed from death to life. There can be no conformity of the will or affections to the image of God if there is no holiness in the soul.

Now faith is a purifying grace, but faith is only found in the new heart, created new in Christ.

So, before any of this, there must be a spiritual renewal of the whole person.

 

[Carbon]

Today, many theologians and pastors abandon scriptural teaching. Many teach what is known as decisional regeneration. Even though we see Jesus teaches that the new birth is a sovereign work of God's Spirit in a human heart.
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8.
So, how then can anyone professing to believe his word say the exact opposite?

Sadly, many do deny and contradict scripture. One, in particular, was very good at it; Charles Finney, who was one of the forefathers of decisional regeneration. The man even said, "Religion is a work of man."

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Today, many theologians and pastors abandon scriptural teaching. Many teach what is known as decisional regeneration. Even though we see Jesus teaches that the new birth is a sovereign work of God's Spirit in a human heart.
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8.
So, how then can anyone professing to believe his word say the exact opposite?

Sadly, many do deny and contradict scripture. One, in particular, was very good at it; Charles Finney, who was one of the forefathers of decisional regeneration. The man even said, "Religion is a work of man."

"Regeneration" is nothing more than another "theological buzz word" defined in different ways by different theological paradigms.

What I found in my case was that "Conviction of SIN, and of judgement" was the key to becoming "Born again".

The Holy Spirit essentially showed me what my REAL STATUS before a Holy God was, and what the end result of that would be if I didn't surrender, and repent, Calling upon God to save me.

And He did, everything changed, and I was NEW.

No "theological terminology required. What was important was that I was DEAD IN MY SIN, and Jesus was the solution, even though I really had no idea what the entirety of that was.

All I REALLY KNEW was that if God didn't DO SOMETHING I was a dead man, that I HAD TO MAKE A DECISION, and when I cried out (literally) to him, then the Holy SPirit came in, and everything changed.


Fortunately, the fellow who "Led me to the Lord" (as the Baptists put it) had never cracked a Bible in his life, and only remembered partially what the Minister had told him the night before when HE was "Born again". But between his halting delivery, and Holy Spirit conviction, the job got done without and "isms" getting in the way.

Finney was accurate when he said that "Religion is a work of man", which is obvious just bu looking around.

More importantly, being BORN AGAIN starts with the DRAWING / Conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit, but the person so convicted has personally to DECIDE (of their own free will) to surrender/repent for things to get any farther. Personally, getting over "That Mountain" ( to repent) was agonizing, but I knew I'd die if I didn't.

 

[Carbon]

"Regeneration" is nothing more than another "theological buzz word" defined in different ways by different theological paradigms.

Sure, but it has a biblical meaning. We humans have a way of distorting many things which are biblical.

What I found in my case was that "Conviction of SIN, and of judgement" was the key to becoming "Born again".

Okay.

The Holy Spirit essentially showed me what my REAL STATUS before a Holy God was, and what the end result of that would be if I didn't surrender, and repent, Calling upon God to save me.

Alright.

And He did, everything changed, and I was NEW.

Do you feel it was because of what the holy Spirit did in your life, you choose Christ? Or, do you believe you were totally depraved and not only unable, but also unwilling to choose Christ before God regenerated you?

No "theological terminology required. What was important was that I was DEAD IN MY SIN, and Jesus was the solution, even though I really had no idea what the entirety of that was.

Alright. If your satisfied with that for yourself, fair enough.

All I REALLY KNEW was that if God didn't DO SOMETHING I was a dead man, that I HAD TO MAKE A DECISION, and when I cried out (literally) to him, then the Holy SPirit came in, and everything changed.

Alright, so it was decisional regeneration?

Fortunately, the fellow who "Led me to the Lord" (as the Baptists put it) had never cracked a Bible in his life, and only remembered partially what the Minister had told him the night before when HE was "Born again". But between his halting delivery, and Holy Spirit conviction, the job got done without and "isms" getting in the way.

Sounds like you really don't understand or do not like the isms?

Finney was accurate when he said that "Religion is a work of man", which is obvious just bu looking around.

Seriously Bob? Why do you think he was accurate? Would you explain a bit? Thanks.

More importantly, being BORN AGAIN starts with the DRAWING / Conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit, but the person so convicted has personally to DECIDE (of their own free will) to surrender/repent for things to get any farther. Personally, getting over "That Mountain" ( to repent) was agonizing, but I knew I'd die if I didn't.

Do you think it could be possible you really didnt know what was going on, and God gave you a new life in the spirit, which caused you to become a believer?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Do you feel it was because of what the holy Spirit did in your life, you choose Christ?

Well, of course. It's for sure that there was nothing I could to to change anything. Without the "Conviction of the Holy Spirit" one can't "Repent", or "surrender".

Or, do you believe you were totally depraved and not only unable, but also unwilling to choose Christ before God regenerated you?

There's that Word again (chuckle). I don't know anything about "Calvinist Regeneration". I DO KNOW about Conviction of SIN, and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit, without which being "Born Again" is impossible.

Alright, so it was decisional regeneration?

More "Buzz words". DId I, under conviction of SIN make a decision?? ABSOLUTELY!! Were YOU Born again without making a decision??

Sounds like you really don't understand or do not like the isms?

I've learned over the last 60 years not to take 'em too seriously. They just "Complicate" the simplicity of the Gospel.

Seriously Bob? Why do you think he was accurate? Would you explain a bit? Thanks.

Because "Religion" is essentially Man's ATTEMPT to get in control of something that they don't really understand perfectly. It's worthless in terms of Evangelization (Paul reduced it to "Jesus, and Him Crucified"), and in the "Visible church" on earth, there's nothing but division and confusion. That's all man is capable of creating.

Do you think it could be possible you really didnt know what was going on, and God gave you a new life in the spirit, which caused you to become a believer?

More word games. the "Kingdom of God" is invisible to the Normal human, but becomes visible to the one who's Born Again.

God certainly DID give me a "new life in the SPirit" (it's called being "Born Again"). That's the result of adding the Holy Spirit to my spirit.,

 

[Carbon]

Well, of course. It's for sure that there was nothing I could to to change anything. Without the "Conviction of the Holy Spirit" one can't "Repent", or "surrender".

I understand you better now. Thanks. I believe in it differently. I believe without the Holy Spirit giving new life, one cannot repent or surrender. This is where total depravity is in play, before regeneration of course.

There's that Word again (chuckle). I don't know anything about "Calvinist Regeneration".

If you don't know anything about what a Calvinist believes about the biblical doctrine of regeneration, why do you chuckle and not care?

I DO KNOW about Conviction of SIN, and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit, without which being "Born Again" is impossible.

genuine conviction of sin comes after one receives the spirit.

More "Buzz words". DId I, under conviction of SIN make a decision?? ABSOLUTELY!! Were YOU Born again without making a decision??

The only time I could ever decide for Christ or become a seeker for Christ is after being born again. Not before.

I've learned over the last 60 years not to take 'em too seriously. They just "Complicate" the simplicity of the Gospel.

Okay.

Because "Religion" is essentially Man's ATTEMPT to get in control of something that they don't really understand perfectly.

It sure can be.

It's worthless in terms of Evangelization (Paul reduced it to "Jesus, and Him Crucified"), and in the "Visible church" on earth, there's nothing but division and confusion. That's all man is capable of creating.

More word games. the "Kingdom of God" is invisible to the Normal human, but becomes visible to the one who's Born Again.

God certainly DID give me a "new life in the SPirit" (it's called being "Born Again"). That's the result of adding the Holy Spirit to my spirit.,

Thanks for sharing Bob.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

genuine conviction of sin come after one receives the spirit.

So the CONVICTION OF SIN that the Holy Spirit gave me BEFORE I was Born again of the Spirit was Phony???

What's YOUR DEFINITION of "Born Again"?? Catholics claim it's when you wet the top of a Baby. I say that it's AFTER you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and changed by HIM.

What's the "Calvinist" version??

The only time I could ever decide for Christ or become a seeker for Christ is after being born again. Not before.

So - since you were "Born again", what was there to "Decide" since your salvation was already complete, and you had been indwelled by the Holy Spirit???

Sounds like nothing but more "Religious word games".

 

[prism]

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. John 6:63

In salvation, the Holy Spirit's first gracious and divine act is - The breathing of spiritual life in the soul. This must be regarded as an operation preceding all others.

Unfortunately, the doctrine of regeneration preached by most, especially in our day differs so much from the doctrine that the apostles and the reformers preached.
Modern Christianity has forgotten an important aspect of salvation, which is the "Total Depravity of man." Unfortunately, the doctrine of Total Depravity today is greatly modified, if not absolutely denied.

I would like to propose in this thread a simple and scriptural delineation of the doctrine of regeneration, the office of the Holy Spirit in its production, and some of the holy effects as traced in the life of a believer.


I'm not looking for a fierce debate. I'm hoping for a friendly, thoughtful discussion/debate.

My only hope is to give the glory to Whom it belongs. The Triune God.

I find it interesting that towards the end of Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus about being born again, He mentions Moses and the bronze serpent (Jn 3:14) which the people were to behold in order to be healed.(Num 21:4-9)
God provided the cure (even the cross), as well as instructions in how to appropriate the cure (look).
I don't see so much a decision involved but an attitude towards God's cure.
Perhaps in the NT dispensation, even that attitude/ reaction is a result of God's in working in His elect.
I just thought it interesting that Jesus ties His discourse of being born again with that incident and His crucifixion.

 

[Ritajanice]

I understand you better now. Thanks. I believe in it differently. I believe without the Holy Spirit giving new life, one cannot repent or surrender. This is where total depravity is in play, before regeneration of course.

Amen!

genuine conviction of sin come after one receives the spirit.

Amen!.....Amen!......Amen!!

The only time I could ever decide for Christ or become a seeker for Christ is after being born again. Not before.

Amen!! Amen!! Amen!!

 

[Carbon]

So the CONVICTION OF SIN that the Holy Spirit gave me BEFORE I was Born again of the Spirit was Phony???

Bob why to quick to jump? I, like you, am telling you my understanding. I believe what I am saying is biblical. And you said throughout your first post that you really didn’t know what was going on, all you really knew for sure is conviction of sin.

What's YOUR DEFINITION of "Born Again"?? Catholics claim it's when you wet the top of a Baby. I say that it's AFTER you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and changed by HIM.

You don’t know what I believe yet? I’ve said it numerous times especially on the other forum.
But I’ll say it again.
Being born again is regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Through the process of regeneration, we are crucified with Christ, given a new heart and nature, alive in the spirit.

What's the "Calvinist" version??

So - since you were "Born again", what was there to "Decide" since your salvation was already complete, and you had been indwelled by the Holy Spirit???

Sounds like nothing but more "Religious word games".

Bob, because I was born again does not make it so I have nothing to say or do. I believed, and expressed this belief/faith by confessing Jesus is Lord. I know him and trust him. Because, since I was born again I was able to see and believe.

 

[makesends]

Regeneration is a work standing alone and distinct from all the other operations of the Spirit.
It should be carefully distinguished from conversion, adoption, justification, and sanctification.
Yet, "it must be first" to form the basis of them all.

Example: There could be no conversion without the "principle of life" in the soul. And isn't conversion the exorcize of spiritual power implanted in man? There couldn't be any sense of adoption outside of the new nature. Without being born of the spirit there could be no comforting sense of acceptance until the mind has passed from death to life. There can be no conformity of the will or affections to the image of God if there is no holiness in the soul.

Now faith is a purifying grace, but faith is only found in the new heart, created new in Christ.

So, before any of this, there must be a spiritual renewal of the whole person.

To any readers: "exorcise" here is (I think) a typo, in, "And isn't conversion the exorcize of spiritual power implanted in man?" He means "exercise". After all, conversion does not remove spiritual power implanted in man. (Although, regeneration DOES exorcise (remove) the spiritual power of sin.) Regeneration is the implanting of spiritual power in man.

 

[Carbon]

To any readers: "exorcise" here is (I think) a typo, in, "And isn't conversion the exorcize of spiritual power implanted in man?" He means "exercise". After all, conversion does not remove spiritual power implanted in man. (Although, regeneration DOES exorcise (remove) the spiritual power of sin.) Regeneration is the implanting of spiritual power in man.

You’re correct, and thank you for the correction brother.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Being born again is regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Through the process of regeneration, we are crucified with Christ, given a new heart and nature, alive in the spirit.

But your fellow Calvinists, disagree, and teach that "Calvinist Regeneration" IS NOT "Salvation", or being "Born Again" but only (apparently) a twilight stage that leads to salvation. I have not idea what that even means.

Your use of the word "Regeneration" ELIMINATES any likelihood that I'll even know for sure what you're talking about.

"Regeneration" is a theological "Buzz word" defined differently by every religious "theologian" according to their own Paradigmatic orientation.

 

[makesends]

But your fellow Calvinists, disagree, and teach that "Calvinist Regeneration" IS NOT "Salvation", or being "Born Again" but only (apparently) a twilight stage that leads to salvation. I have not idea what that even means.

Your use of the word "Regeneration" ELIMINATES any likelihood that I'll even know for sure what you're talking about.

"Regeneration" is a theological "Buzz word" defined differently by every religious "theologian" according to their own Paradigmatic orientation.

Seems like you intend to misunderstand. You certainly don't seem to make any effort to understand the obvious. When the Calvinist parses words, "regeneration" is a logical precursor (not necessarily time-sequenced) of Salvation, and all the rest of the results (effects) of the Holy Spirit taking up residence within the elect, regenerating them, which effects include salvific FAITH, repentance, obedience, desire for God and so on.

And I'm thinking you misrepresent the Calvinists; I've never heard a Calvinist (nor Reformed) claim that regeneration precedes being born again. They are by definition one and the same thing.

 

[SeventhDay]

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. John 6:63

In salvation, the Holy Spirit's first gracious and divine act is - The breathing of spiritual life in the soul. This must be regarded as an operation preceding all others.

Unfortunately, the doctrine of regeneration preached by most, especially in our day differs so much from the doctrine that the apostles and the reformers preached.
Modern Christianity has forgotten an important aspect of salvation, which is the "Total Depravity of man." Unfortunately, the doctrine of Total Depravity today is greatly modified, if not absolutely denied.

I would like to propose in this thread a simple and scriptural delineation of the doctrine of regeneration, the office of the Holy Spirit in its production, and some of the holy effects as traced in the life of a believer.


I'm not looking for a fierce debate. I'm hoping for a friendly, thoughtful discussion/debate.

My only hope is to give the glory to Whom it belongs. The Triune God.

Spiritual life begins with the new spiritual creation quickened out of death not with the old Adam dead in trespasses and sins and dead with Christ in his death. The old is passing away and all things become new through spiritual regeneration which is ongoing until we are spiritually complete in Christ. Our walk is in the Spirit and we receive spiritual gifts and produce spiritual fruit. If we have not the Spirit of Christ within us ten we do not belong to Christ!

 

[Ritajanice]

Spiritual life begins with the new spiritual creation quickened out of death not with the old Adam dead in trespasses and sins and dead with Christ in his death. The old is passing away and all things become new through spiritual regeneration which is ongoing until we are spiritually complete in Christ. Our walk is in the Spirit and we receive spiritual gifts and produce spiritual fruit. If we have not the Spirit of Christ within us ten we do not belong to Christ!

Love this....Amen!!..

 

[prism]

Spiritual life begins with the new spiritual creation quickened out of death not with the old Adam dead in trespasses and sins and dead with Christ in his death. The old is passing away and all things become new through spiritual regeneration which is ongoing until we are spiritually complete in Christ. Our walk is in the Spirit and we receive spiritual gifts and produce spiritual fruit. If we have not the Spirit of Christ within us ten we do not belong to Christ!

How does the natural man (us before new birth) get over the following hump?

1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

and...

Romans 3:11 NASB
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; (also us before the new birth)

 

[Carbon]

How does the natural man (us before new birth) get over the following hump?

1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

and...

Romans 3:11 NASB
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; (also us before the new birth)

Amen!

 

[SeventhDay]

To any readers: "exorcise" here is (I think) a typo, in, "And isn't conversion the exorcize of spiritual power implanted in man?" He means "exercise". After all, conversion does not remove spiritual power implanted in man. (Although, regeneration DOES exorcise (remove) the spiritual power of sin.) Regeneration is the implanting of spiritual power in man.

Yes, Jesus sowed a spiritual seed in us and that is regeneration!