The second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead

[CrowCross]

Calling Jesus the Messiah the same as the Antichrist is a gross misunderstanding of the Daniel text.

I must have missed that.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I must have missed that.

The only "Prince that shall come" in the Daniel 9 context is the coming of "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25 - not an antichrist or The Antichrist who would come later on, past the end of the 70 week prophecy time period. Your link mistakenly inserts The Antichrist into this prophecy as the coming Prince, when the only "Prince" in this Daniel 9 context was Christ Jesus - the one called "the messenger of the covenant". Jesus the "Messiah" would "confirm the covenant with many" of Daniel's people during the first half of the 70th week from AD 30 up to AD 33. At that point, He was "cut off" out of the land of the living in the midst of that 70th week by His crucifixion.

But all of that is to concentrate on Christ' first coming as the incarnate Son of Man. I'm making the mistake of drifting off-target again.

You suggested that I submit a sort of timeline to prove my assertion of when the 1,335th day prophesied in Daniel for the resurrection at Christ's return took place. I have done this on another website before which ended up shutting down, so unfortunately I can't just give a link for it. I'll have to type it out again, which I'll do when I can get a bit of time away from a couple deadlines on the workroom table this week.

 

[Eleanor]

Have you ever noticed how the rapture fits into the jewish marriage narrative ? I have.

Care to explain?

 

[Eleanor]

Got that right, there certainly isn't.


Got that right too. Which is why Peter wrote in 1 Peter 4:7, "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." Peter was urging the saints at that time to prepare for all those things coming to pass in their days.

So there has been a final judgment of the sheep and the goats (all mankind)?

 

[3 Resurrections]

So there has been a final judgment of the sheep and the goats (all mankind)?

Scripture never limits a judgment of the sheep and the goats to just one occasion only. There is more than just one GWT judgment. One of those judgments occurred back in AD 70. It was at the resurrection of both the just and the unjust which Paul said was "about to be" in his generation (Acts 24:15). This was a judgment of all of mankind which had died up until that point in time.

At the close of fallen mankind's history on this planet, there will be a final judgment of the sheep and the goats, with all human evil purged from this planet from that final judgment onward.

 

[Eleanor]

Scripture never limits a judgment of the sheep and the goats to just one occasion only.

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) does.

 

[jeremiah1five]

YIKES!!!! Major flaws in that.

For starters we didn't see Jesus ascend anything like His "in like matter" return describes.

There was no white horse. You can read the rest starting at verse 11.
It should be pretty obvious the rapture described in 1 Thes 4:16ish isn't the Rev 19 account.

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:11.

He went up.
He's coming back. IN LIKE MANNER as you seen Him go into heaven.

There is no rapture.

The Gentile Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble with Israel.
The Gentile Church does not get to pass "GO!" nor collect any respite from tribulation.
Tribulation sanctifies and if the Gentile Church wants to be ready it must suffer as Jesus suffered.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Jesus' second coming is supposed to occur at a rapture of dead people coming out of graves along with alive people who both fly into the sky to meet Jesus on a cloud, which then turns into a commencement of 1000 years of Jesus being a king in the temple in Jerusalem.

If that is not a correct interpretation or it isn't true then what is it?

It's one of many "Correct Interpretations" ALL God's Chilluns got "Interpretations".

 

[3 Resurrections]

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) does.

No, New Testament teaching by the Apostles does NOT limit the judgment of the sheep and the goats to one occasion only. Show me that limitation to a once-only judgment from scripture if you are going to claim that.

 

[CrowCross]

The only "Prince that shall come" in the Daniel 9 context is the coming of "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25 - not an antichrist or The Antichrist who would come later on, past the end of the 70 week prophecy time period. Your link mistakenly inserts The Antichrist into this prophecy as the coming Prince, when the only "Prince" in this Daniel 9 context was Christ Jesus - the one called "the messenger of the covenant". Jesus the "Messiah" would "confirm the covenant with many" of Daniel's people during the first half of the 70th week from AD 30 up to AD 33. At that point, He was "cut off" out of the land of the living in the midst of that 70th week by His crucifixion.

But all of that is to concentrate on Christ' first coming as the incarnate Son of Man. I'm making the mistake of drifting off-target again.

You suggested that I submit a sort of timeline to prove my assertion of when the 1,335th day prophesied in Daniel for the resurrection at Christ's return took place. I have done this on another website before which ended up shutting down, so unfortunately I can't just give a link for it. I'll have to type it out again, which I'll do when I can get a bit of time away from a couple deadlines on the workroom table this week.

Take your time....maybe you can get it done before the rapture happens.

 

[CrowCross]

Care to explain?

Boy meets girl......a dowry is paid to dad....boy goes away and makes living arrangements....girl waits for return of boy...boy appears lifts girl up.... and takes her to new house....marriage supper.

Jesus calls sheep....Jesus pays ransom on cross to the Father.....Jesus goes to heaven and makes many mansions...Jesus appears and raptures bride/church....bride/church taken to mansions....marriage supper of the lamb.

Hows that?


Edit....I just did a search and found this.

 

[CrowCross]

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:11.

He went up.
He's coming back. IN LIKE MANNER as you seen Him go into heaven.

There is no rapture.

The Gentile Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble with Israel.
The Gentile Church does not get to pass "GO!" nor collect any respite from tribulation.
Tribulation sanctifies and if the Gentile Church wants to be ready it must suffer as Jesus suffered.

Let me explain it to you again.....Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.

 

[Mr GLee]

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) does.

No such thing as apostolic teaching authority or apostolic anything.

Abel is the first recorded apostles(SENT ONE) sent with prophecy, first martyr also

Apostle sent one sent as messengers of God. Not highly venerable puffed up ones that lord it over the faith (understanding) of non venerable with the oral traditions of the fathers that make sola scriptura without efect

1 Corinthians 4:5-7King James Version Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men(apostles) above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The apostles are as nothing. Every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. One Jesus was crucified not a legion of fathers that some call patron saints

1 Corinthians 36 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

 

[Wordsmith]

withLet's see if we can agree with scripture, build some consensus, and away clear some of the eschatological doctrinal biases out of the way.

• Can we first establish the fact there is no specific mention of "The Second Coming" in the Bible?

In that exact wording yes , in principal no!

• Can we then agree the idea of "The Second Coming" is a phrase used for what most people consider another coming that is of profound significance but not limited to binding Jesus to never ever "coming" again?

You have made your point about the exact wording "second coming" but I will submit there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture to occur after His ascension. I also will state that is yet to happen in our future. It will be by description His second coming.

All coming of the Lord passages must be harmonized not divided into multiple comings because the wording of each passage is not identical.

There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical in their wording, but yet some get two comings out of those differences, why not 3 or 4?

I do NOT hold to the pre-trib rapture view.

• Can we agree that the closest verse to stating anything remotely close to "The Second Coming" is Hebrews 9:28?

Yes.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

• Can we agree the "second coming" of Christ in Hebrews 9:28 explicitly states it is for a salvation apart from sin?

I believe what this passage means when He comes again it will be to bring us to the full completeness or consumption of our salvation. Sin has already been dealt on the cross.

• Can we agree many eschatological views of the second coming are overtly couched in the existence of sin and a need for salvation from that sin so that either Hebrews 9:28 is being misused or their view of The Second Coming is in error (because it is inherently and inextricably tied to a salvation from sin)?

I believe I answered this above.

• Can we agree the next closest place any specific reference to anything remotely called "The Second Coming" is Acts 1:11?

No more than any other coming of the Lord passage!

• Can we agree that verse does not state "second coming"? Can we also agree there is no mention of a specified "second coming" anywhere else in the chapter?

You are correct ,it does not use the wording "second Coming".

When He comes again that will be his second coming wether or not those exact words are used.

• Can we agree there is no explicit mention of Jesus physically on the earth in any of the "rapture" verses commonly used in pre-tribulational rapture

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The above passage mentions Jesus physically on earth, also referred to in passages below :

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Harmonize these passages do not make different comings out of them. All three state that the saints come with Him while only one mentions Jesus touching the earth. Still the same event!

• views?
• Can we agree there is no specific. explicit mention of Jesus physically on the earth in Revelation 19 or 20?

If you tie Revelation 19:14 to Zechariah 14: 4-5 which are the same event yes Jesus is physically on earth in Revelation 19!

Back to my earlier statement just because every coming of the Lord passage are not identical in wording does not mean they do not refer to the same event.

After the resurrection and ascension of Jesus there I only one more coming, by definition it will be His second coming and it is yet in our future.

Thank you for your patience and your timely, direct, and succinct answers .

You are welcome!

 

[Mr GLee]

Boy meets girl......a dowry is paid to dad....boy goes away and makes living arrangements....girl waits for return of boy...boy appears lifts girl up.... and takes her to new house....marriage supper.

Jesus calls sheep....Jesus pays ransom on cross to the Father.....Jesus goes to heaven and makes many mansions...Jesus appears and raptures bride/church....bride/church taken to mansions....marriage supper of the lamb.

Hows that?


Edit....I just did a search and found this.

I would think rather than Jewish bride more of developing the bride of all nations.She was renamed by the Father in Acts. Christian, previously calling her Israel.

Christian literally "residents of the city of Christ prepared as the bride.name after her husband" A more befitting name to name the bride of Christ of all nations

The wedding song/psalm ,beautiful parable using the temporal things seen to give us the gospel understanding hid in the parable

Psalm19 1-8 King James Version The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.


The husband Christ, the just and justifier of our new born again faith .

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Let me explain it to you again.....Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.

That's inconsequential.
So, you're saying He ascended, stayed in the air for 3 1/2 years, and then left to His Father?

 

[CrowCross]

That's inconsequential.
So, you're saying He ascended, stayed in the air for 3 1/2 years, and then left to His Father?

Absolutely not.

When Jesus returns at the rapture the following happens.

John 13: 1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God;a believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Let me explain it to you yet again.....Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.

Acts 1: 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”
The Rider on the White Horse is Jesus at the second coming...(which isn't the rapture)

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

Jesus comes back TWICE....once in the sky at the rapture then on a white horse and physically stands on the earth.

 

[Wordsmith]

The earthquake in Turkey earlier this year was 7.8 (more then 32 Hiroshima bombs in power) on the Richter scale and it created a valley 300 meters long, or about one-fifth of the valley from the Zechariah 14 valley, and 130 feet deep. That occurred at 1312 feet about sea level. The mount of Olives is twice that high.

An earthquake strong enough to divide the Mount of Olives and literally move one half to the north and one half to the south five times greater than the Turkish earthquake would destroy Jerusalem. There would be no buildings left. The city would be rubble. Literally. Jerusalem is about six kilometers or 3.75 miles from Jerusalem and its peak was about 200 feet above the roof of Jerusalem's temple. An earthquake severe enough to cause a valley five times greater than the one in Turkey in an elevation twice as high would exceed our Richter Scale. These numbers can be doubled if the valley extends as far to the west as it does to the east. Now there is a sea to the west of the Mount of Olives (the Mediterranean). The closest sea to the east would be the Persian Gulf, more than 1000 miles away from Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives. A river will run from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf.

All of this is irrelevant!

1. You assume it is an earthquake which not stated in the text.
2. You apply human reasoning to the creator of the universe who spoke it into existence.
3. Cannot the creator of the universe split a mountain without destroying Jerusalem?

So.... is it logical to read the Zechariah text literally? Or do we run into the same sort of problem occurring when stars fall to the earth? Remember: an earthquake literally strong enough to divide the Mount of Olives would literally destroy Jerusalem.

If it is not reasonable to think the earthquake literally divides the mountain in two so severely a a huge valley is created and Jerusalem is destroyed, then is it reasonable to think Jesus is literally standing on the Mount when that earthquake happens? He's standing ON the mountain DURING an earthquake that literally divides the mountain on which he is standing AND he does so watching as the city of peace is destroyed.

Or is there a better way to understand the passage, after all, we know the "living waters" are not literal H20 water. We also know there was a day future to Zechariah's day when Jerusalem was surrounded by many nations. we know the city was captured and we know people fled to the mountains and caves to escape the destruction of the city. We know women (and men) were ravaged and people were cut off from the city by a multi-year siege. We also know there were at least two days when all light was cut off from the city, one during the crucifixion, and another during the siege of Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Please show from scripture why any of the above cannot be literal?

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This doesn't have to be a normal earthquake, God can just say mountain split and it is done.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This does not say God will use an earthquake but only says they will flee like they did before a previous earth quake.

God very well could use an earthquake but He is not bound by your scientific analysis that it would destroy Jerusalem.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

From scripture why can this not be literal?

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

From scripture why can this not be literal?

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

From scripture why can this not be literal? God can call H2o living water if He chooses. It does flow to the sea in the text.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

From scripture why can this not be literal?

You are correct somethings in scripture are not literal but the Lord will literally set foot on the Mount of Olives.

Jesus walked on water that is not logical.
God stopped the sun in the sky, that is not logical.
God made a donkey talk, that is not logical.
God protected 3 men in a raging fire. That is not logical.

God's power is not always logical in mans eyes but He still is God.

 

[Mr GLee]

That's inconsequential.
So, you're saying He ascended, stayed in the air for 3 1/2 years, and then left to His Father?

God is not a man. His Holy Spirit works in Jesu the Son of man he said Not as I will no power but you father the one with power to raise the dead Holy Spirit works in dying mankind

I would think the son of man Jesus's body remains in the grave . His born again spirit in the bosom or presence of God not seen. jesu our brother in the lord will rise to the wakeup call on the last day under the Sun.

Some did know the Spirit of Christ that worked in the Son of man Jesus .There is no possibility of another demonstration of him and the Father onty one was promised demonstration (flesh )

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Jesus the Son of man not the Holy father

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

[Wordsmith]

Absolutely not.

When Jesus returns at the rapture the following happens.

John 13: 1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God;a believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Let me explain it to you yet again.....Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.

Acts 1: 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”
The Rider on the White Horse is Jesus at the second coming...(which isn't the rapture)

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

Jesus comes back TWICE....once in the sky at the rapture then on a white horse and physically stands on the earth.

Be careful about requiring every detail in a coming of the Lord passages to be identical to make a point. If that is your method we can come up with 5 or 6 or more comings of the Lord. Because no 2 coming of the Lord passages are identical.

If you question this show any two that are identical , your choice.

Jesus only returns once more in our future. That fact can be harmonized with every passage.