The Rapture or the Second Coming

[Josheb]

Noah was not taken away.
He remained in his same physical body on the same physical earth and stood firm by his faith in the one true God who brought him safely through tribulation that came his way.

Just as the end times when people will be saved who go through tribulation by standing firm by their faith in the one true God.

Exactly.

Revelation 7:13-15
13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Those people went through the tribulation and came out on the other side of it.

Noah sailed around right in the middle of worldwide tribulation and destruction. He witnessed the corpses floating all around him. He watched them rot and bloat and he smelled the stench of death and decay. He himself was not judged at that time but he would face judgment later. Prior to the flood he suffered the tribulation of mockery and ridicule and, nonetheless, persevered and remained faithful to the call of God in his life. Noah did not escape tribulation. He was NOT taken away. It was those who died in the flood who were taken away.

Matthew 24:3-39
For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away...

The ones taken away were the ones judged and destroyed, not Noah and his family.

 

[Eleanor]

I believe the next event will be the 2nd Coming when He comes to Judge the world in Righteousness, and to destroy this world order and usher in Eternity Acts 17:31

According to the apostolic teaching (2 Th 2:3) of Christ (Lk 10:16), does not the man of lawlessness have to be revealed before the 2nd Coming?

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
2 Pet 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

How soon? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

Im not sure, i wouldn't be surprised though of this is the last generation of living saints

 

[brightfame52]

does not the man of lawlessness have to be revealed before the 2nd Coming?

Yeah, I believe thats now, false religion, man exalting his will over Gods will

 

[CrowCross]

There is no separated rapture, either.

Then explain why there is no white horse in 1 thes 4. Do you think you can do that or will you continue to run away from the question?

My bet is you'll run.

 

[CrowCross]

Yep.

So when is Jesus coming to Judge the world, destroy this world order and usher in Eternity?

7 years after the tribulation begins.

 

[CrowCross]

Is that why you say the rapture is only a partial coming---because you aren't waiting for the white horse coming? You presume you won't be here when that happens? Is that why you are focused on the rapture instead of Christ?

Nope. I'm focused on Christ. What are you focused on?

When a person starts with what they already believe and then looks to Scripture to verify it, they will read into scripture what is not actually there.

Where did I read into scripture that showed a white horse is not present at the rapture?

What is presented here is a clear case of doing that. It uses a wooden literalism where such a thing is not applicable given the genre and arrives at something that is nowhere in the Bible, and in fact is a direct contradiction to the clear statements that have Jesus returning only once.

Clear statements? LOL. If it's so "clear" why does most of the church believe in a pre-trib rapture?

Your interpretation has him returning three times. The Bible presents him returning with the rapture of the saints in Thess, coinciding with the resurrection of the dead in Christ (1 Cor 15). And they are not raptured out of the earth but rise to meet him in the air, the resurrected dead in Christ and those who remain having been changed, and are with him forever. Since that depicts a second coming, it implies they meet him and return to the earth with him where they will be with him forever, and he with them (Rev 21). The victorious Christ with his overcoming entourage.

Will you ever address the lack of a white horse?

He does not return on a literal white horse.

OK, if you say so.

What you have to do is now tell all of us how this non-literal white horse represent the same way in which Jesus left.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen (Rev 1:7).

 

[CrowCross]

Noah was not taken away.

Noah was taken away from the surface of the earth in a boat.
Lot was taken away from the city....I fail to see your point.

He remained in his same physical body on the same physical earth and stood firm by his faith in the one true God who brought him safely through tribulation that came his way.
Just as the end times when people will be saved who go through tribulation by standing firm by their faith in the one true God.

You do know that some people will be saved during the tribulation. Yes?

Perhaps you would like to address the white horse issue that shows a pre-trib rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

How soon? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

The answer you demand is unknowable. It could be tomorrow or it could be in two years.
Judging from Rev 13 and the beast system that is currently being established it sure sounds like it's closer than we think.

 

[CrowCross]

Exactly.

Revelation 7:13-15
13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Those people went through the tribulation and came out on the other side of it.

Noah sailed around right in the middle of worldwide tribulation and destruction. He witnessed the corpses floating all around him. He watched them rot and bloat and he smelled the stench of death and decay. He himself was not judged at that time but he would face judgment later. Prior to the flood he suffered the tribulation of mockery and ridicule and, nonetheless, persevered and remained faithful to the call of God in his life. Noah did not escape tribulation. He was NOT taken away. It was those who died in the flood who were taken away.

Matthew 24:3-39
For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away...

The ones taken away were the ones judged and destroyed, not Noah and his family.

You do know there will be people saved during the tribulation? yes?

 

[Josheb]

Im not sure, i wouldn't be surprised though of this is the last generation of living saints

How long is a generation in your understanding? I'm 66. If I live to be 80 that would mean Jesus will be returning within the next 14 years. Is that what you mean when saying Jesus is coming to judge the world and usher in eternity soon?

 

[Josheb]

Then explain why there is no white horse in 1 thes 4. Do you think you can do that or will you continue to run away from the question?

My bet is you'll run.

The same reason there is no three-headed purple octopus or orange striped conflurginacker. Arguments from silence are fallacious. You cannot make a rational case for anything from what is not stated. That is called an argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio), and you should be suspicious of any teacher who tries to do so (regardless of his theological orientation). That includes me, and it includes Thomas Ice.

And you should not ask me questions you've asked me multiple times before because you already know the answer. The white horse is never stated to leave heaven. Some Christians (not just Dispensationalists) assume the horse has left because the infer that based on their pre-existing belief. That's not what the text actually states. What the text repeatedly states is the events described in the vision all occur in heaven, even when the effect occurs on earth. Jesus is not explicitly stated to physically come to earth until chapter 21 and when that happens, he is not on a white horse.


No running wanted, needed, or existent.

 

[Josheb]

7 years after the tribulation begins.

The answer you demand is unknowable. It could be tomorrow or it could be in two years.

You've just contradicted yourself.

If Jesus' return occurs after the tribulation of seven years, then we can know AND we definitely know it will not be tomorrow. You've also just contradicted the doctrine of imminence (which I have discussed with you previously).

 

[Josheb]

You do know there will be people saved during the tribulation? yes?

Yes but the verses cited states they went through the tribulation, implying from beginning to end, not those who were not saints at the trib's onset and came through a portion with washed robes.

 

[Arial]

Nope. I'm focused on Christ. What are you focused on?

Your posts don't demonstrate that. And that is all I have to go on.

Where did I read into scripture that showed a white horse is not present at the rapture?

Is that what I said you did? Your definition of the rapture is wrong. You say that 1 Thess is talking about a rapture and not the third coming of Christ because there is no white horse. You are using the white horse coming to prove the pre-trib rapture.

Clear statements? LOL. If it's so "clear" why does most of the church believe in a pre-trib rapture?

Do you have any proof of that statement? And even if it were true, would that mean it is correct? Isn't there a passage in the Bible about a wide gate and many who go through it to destruction, and a narrow one who few enter? Most of all the population of all time does not believe in the resurrected Christ. Are we then to assume they are right?

Will you ever address the lack of a white horse?

Will you ever address the content of a post you respond to or just post red herrings so as to avoid it?

What you have to do is now tell all of us how this non-literal white horse represent the same way in which Jesus left.

Is that what I have to do? I gave you the scripture that says how Jesus will return---one that is literal. It was from Rev 1, in the very post you are responding to. One that was not signified (use representative symbols to portray a truth) Why is there no mention of that?

In the post Bible Questions and Study

Study of the Bible​

After the opening post I go through the Dispensational dispensations and their points, with counterpoints from the Reformed hermeneutic. I really think that if you had the hermeneutic you use explained for what it is, and compared to the Reformed hermeneutic Dispensationalism wrecks the story of redemption. I say that for your learning today something you were not aware of yesterday.

Peace and blessing.

 

[Arial]

Then explain why there is no white horse in 1 thes 4. Do you think you can do that or will you continue to run away from the question?

My bet is you'll run.

Because Jesus doesn't return on a white horse. And there is no pre-trib rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

The same reason there is no three-headed purple octopus or orange striped conflurginacker. Arguments from silence are fallacious. You cannot make a rational case for anything from what is not stated. That is called an argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio), and you should be suspicious of any teacher who tries to do so (regardless of his theological orientation). That includes me, and it includes Thomas Ice.

Arguments from silence???? {edit}
{edit}
Jesus returns back just like the bible says He will do.

And you should not ask me questions you've asked me multiple times before because you already know the answer. The white horse is never stated to leave heaven.

WHAT????? You already lost that argument. The verse says...{edit}...."strike down the nations". {edit}
With righteousness He judges and wages war....The armies follow Jesus on white horses.{edit}

Yes, you stated that before.....What I just did ws show you Jesus LEAVES heaven. {edit}

Some Christians (not just Dispensationalists) assume the horse has left because the infer that based on their pre-existing belief. That's not what the text actually states. What the text repeatedly states is the events described in the vision all occur in heaven, even when the effect occurs on earth. Jesus is not explicitly stated to physically come to earth until chapter 21 and when that happens, he is not on a white horse.

Noooooooooooooo. {edit} ....In the previous paragraph just above I pointed out several descriptions in the verses that show Jesus left heaven.

No running wanted, needed, or existent.

{edit}

 

[CrowCross]

You've just contradicted yourself.

If Jesus' return occurs after the tribulation of seven years, then we can know AND we definitely know it will not be tomorrow. You've also just contradicted the doctrine of imminence (which I have discussed with you previously).

No I didn't....and to be honest I shouldn't have to explain it to you...BUT...I will. No one knows the date of the pre-trib rapture. Got it?
Now, I suppose if you know the date the tribulation begins you can add 7 years to that day and figure it out. Thing is the tribulation doesn't have to begin at the moment of the pre-trib rapture.

So, no contradiction.

 

[CrowCross]

Is that what I said you did? Your definition of the rapture is wrong. You say that 1 Thess is talking about a rapture and not the third coming of Christ because there is no white horse. You are using the white horse coming to prove the pre-trib rapture.

If you've ben following me you would have seen that is only one way to demonstrate the pre-trib rapture. We've dicussed the other reasons.

Will you ever address the content of a post you respond to or just post red herrings so as to avoid it?

Will you ever address the White Horse being missing from the ascention?

Study of the Bible​

After the opening post I go through the Dispensational dispensations and their points, with counterpoints from the Reformed hermeneutic. I really think that if you had the hermeneutic you use explained for what it is, and compared to the Reformed hermeneutic Dispensationalism wrecks the story of redemption. I say that for your learning today something you were not aware of yesterday.

I have to chuckle at you....you try to put down dispensationalism by laying your bad hermenuitics on everyone. As if you have all the answers.
You should be thanking me for pointing out the white horse.

Considering you can't reply to the white horse not being at the ascention properly and convincingly would you like to move on to the times of Noah or Daniel 12? How about not destined for wrath and being delivered from it? How about the mansions in heven where Jesus says He'll come back for us and take us there? There's so much in the bible about a pre-trib rapture and speaking bad agains Dispensationalist is far from hermenuitics...and you of all people should know that.

 

[CrowCross]

Because Jesus doesn't return on a white horse. And there is no pre-trib rapture.

Rev 19:11-16.

Can you look it up or would you like me to post a link?