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The Rapture or the Second Coming

When I speak of the elect in Revelations I speak of the tribulation christians and/or the Jews.

I don't know what you mean by this phrasing. I do better with some clarity.

I'm not speaking of the christians who are caught up in the pre-trib rapture as they are not mentioned after Rev chapter 4.

Okay, so you don't see the elect as being mentioned in Revelation? (Past 4)

I have noticed you have not presented your escatology...do you have one?

Yes. I hold generally to an amillennial position.

I apologize for not posting it but since I believe in the reformed covenant theology I often think it's just something obvious.
 
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Because it's true in accordance with Scripture.
How is the 1,000 year reign not in accordance with scripture when the bible mentions it 6 or 7 times?

When do you believe the rapture/resurrection will happen? I know your'e not pre-trib....would you be mid-trib? Post-trib? Pre-wrath or would you say it already happened?
 
How is the 1,000 year reign not in accordance with scripture when the bible mentions it 6 or 7 times?

When do you believe the rapture/resurrection will happen? I know your'e not pre-trib....would you be mid-trib? Post-trib? Pre-wrath or would you say it already happened?
Revelation is prophecy, which is given in riddles, not clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation, the rule being: to be correct, interpretation must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16), which "millennium" is nowhere found in the gospels or epistles, and is not in agreement with 1 Th 4:16-17.

The "millennium" riddle is a figure of the church age, where the first resurrection is from spiritual death into eternal life in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5).
 
How is the 1,000 year reign not in accordance with scripture when the bible mentions it 6 or 7 times?

When do you believe the rapture/resurrection will happen? I know your'e not pre-trib....would you be mid-trib? Post-trib? Pre-wrath or would you say it already happened?

I answered you because I did think you were genuinely curious about my beliefs and such - so I gave you that - but the topic of the thread are not my personal beliefs.

So: back to the rapture as a separated futuristic end times event. So far, you have no verses from the Scripture that supports your view.
 
It actually was your doing. You wrote "in Post #39 the verse[s] speaks about the second coming," and the forum interprets [s] as the BB code command for strikethrough text.

I fixed it.
thx
 
I opened my mind for you...
Open mind to scripture.

Does the Dispensational Premillennial/modern futurist view of the rapture define the rapture as Jesus coming to take Christians away from the pending (great) tribulation, or not?
 
Face-palm.....we don't know the time of the rapture/resurrection....and we don't know when Jesus will physically return.
You do if the rapture occurs seven years prior.

In point of fact, there are multiple serious conflicts with the events listed in this op and the long-held orthodox view of imminence (Jesus can return at any time). If the separated rapture has to occur first, then Jesus cannot come at any time. Jesus cannot come prior to the rapture. Jesus' second coming cannot occur until he first "comes for his own in the air" (as the op words it). Jesus' second coming cannot occur until the tribulation comes (and goes). Dispensationalists also variously say Israel must recapture all of the land God promised, build another temple, reinstitute the Mosaic Law, re-establish the Levitical priesthood, and reconstitute animal sacrifices. If any of those events is taught to occur prior to the second coming then 1) some means of knowing when he will return is established in contradiction of the premise no one will know the day or hour, and 2) the doctrine of imminence is contradicted.

The premise of a rapture event separated from second coming is not merely something that cannot be supported by Matthew 24:37-38, it also makes a mess of imminence. No one can rationally say seven years will occur between the rapture and the second coming and also say no one knows when the second coming will occur.

It will occur seven years after the rapture. Every person left behind can mark it on their calendar.

It is completely irrational but, then again, there is a lot that Dispensational Premillennialism teaches that is irrational. It teaches folks to use Matthew 24:37-38 as a text supporting the rapture when the surrounding verses preclude that interpretation.
 
I'm at a loss on this site! Therefore I have sent for some books to read when I am feeling better.
 
I'm at a loss on this site! Therefore I have sent for some books to read when I am feeling better.
Here is one of the best. A Case For Alillennialism: Understandin the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger. It is an easy read, or was for me, and it lays the Dispensaitonal pre-millennial, pre-trib along side the amillennaialism, using Scripture to show the contradictions to the Bible in the pre tribe, pre-mil view, so you can see for yourself from the Scripture.
 
Revelation is prophecy, which is given in riddles, not clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation, the rule being: to be correct, interpretation must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16), which "millennium" is nowhere found in the gospels or epistles, and is not in agreement with 1 Th 4:16-17.

The "millennium" riddle is a figure of the church age, where the first resurrection is from spiritual death into eternal life in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5).
Is that rule in the bible?

Yes, there will be a 1000 year reign. As WE all know Revelation talks about it.

How someone can claim it's not in agreement ..or...agreement with 1 Thes 4:16....is beyond me as they are different different topics.
 
We are reigning with Christ in the heavenlies now (Eph 2:6), during the figurative "millennium" (church age).
I Hope you don't mind me disagreeing. Revelations speaks of a 1,000 year reign after Christ comes back. It's there,
 
Here is one of the best. A Case For Alillennialism: Understandin the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger. It is an easy read, or was for me, and it lays the Dispensaitonal pre-millennial, pre-trib along side the amillennaialism, using Scripture to show the contradictions to the Bible in the pre tribe, pre-mil view, so you can see for yourself from the Scripture.
Thanks, but I can't handle end times. I have 3 books by authors Sproul. DeYoung, and Treick. Summer hates me; I don't know when I'll feel better. :(
 
Is that rule in the bible?
That question is answered in my post, copied in post #113.
Yes, there will be a 1000 year reign. As WE all know Revelation talks about it.

How someone can claim it's not in agreement ..or...agreement with 1 Thes 4:16....is beyond me as they are different topics.
1 Th 4:16-17 presents the apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ (Luke 10:16) on the second coming, resurrection and catching up ("rapture") of the saints.
 
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Open mind to scripture.

Does the Dispensational Premillennial/modern futurist view of the rapture define the rapture as Jesus coming to take Christians away from the pending (great) tribulation, or not?
The BIBLE informs us Jesus raptures the church pre-tribulation.

I this is the Dispensational Premillennial/modern futurist view.....they got it right.
 
Yes, it is rule of the Bible (Nu 12:6-8) that prophecy (Revelation 1:3) is given in riddles (dark sayings) and not spoken clearly.

My bible says....
I speak with him face to face, ......clearly and not in riddles; So, I'm not really following you.
1 Th 4:16-17 presents the apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ (Luke 10:16) on the second coming, resurrection and catching up ("rapture") of the saints.
Whats that have to do with the 1000 year reign of Jesus?
 
You do if the rapture occurs seven years prior.

In point of fact, there are multiple serious conflicts with the events listed in this op and the long-held orthodox view of imminence (Jesus can return at any time). If the separated rapture has to occur first, then Jesus cannot come at any time. Jesus cannot come prior to the rapture. Jesus' second coming cannot occur until he first "comes for his own in the air" (as the op words it). Jesus' second coming cannot occur until the tribulation comes (and goes). Dispensationalists also variously say Israel must recapture all of the land God promised, build another temple, reinstitute the Mosaic Law, re-establish the Levitical priesthood, and reconstitute animal sacrifices. If any of those events is taught to occur prior to the second coming then 1) some means of knowing when he will return is established in contradiction of the premise no one will know the day or hour, and 2) the doctrine of imminence is contradicted.

The premise of a rapture event separated from second coming is not merely something that cannot be supported by Matthew 24:37-38, it also makes a mess of imminence. No one can rationally say seven years will occur between the rapture and the second coming and also say no one knows when the second coming will occur.

It will occur seven years after the rapture. Every person left behind can mark it on their calendar.

It is completely irrational but, then again, there is a lot that Dispensational Premillennialism teaches that is irrational. It teaches folks to use Matthew 24:37-38 as a text supporting the rapture when the surrounding verses preclude that interpretation.
Whe we read no one knows the hour...is the bible referring to the rapture or the second coming? Which of the 2?
 
That question is answered in my post, copied in post #113.

1 Th 4:16-17 presents the apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ (Luke 10:16) on the second coming, resurrection and catching up ("rapture") of the saints.
Sorry...I'm still lost in trying to figure out your point.

Wasn't John an apostle when he wrote down Revelation?
 
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