The Rapture or the Second Coming

[Arial]

I agree. As I said during the judgement of the tribulation in Rev people won't be getting married just before Christ returns.... and partying with the exception of the death of the two witnesses.....

Does the Bible say that people won't be getting married just before Christ returns? Matt 24 says they will be. In Matt 24 does Jesus identify the last days as a seven year period called the Tribulation? Does he? Or is that read into it by a presuppositional eschatological view that did not exist as orthodox until the post modern era? And neither Matt 24 or Revelation say a word about "partying. Can't you see that you are just repeating what you have heard and blindly believed.

The end of the tribulation when Jesus returns as mentioned in Rev 19 and stands on the Mt. of Olives and it is split per Zech 2 doesn't fit your. description.

My description? How about the words of the Bible itself? But wait a sec. I thought you said in Rev 19 Jesus is riding on a white horse. Zech 2 says nothing about Jesus standing on the Mt of Olives and it is split in two. I know Rev does---so which is it, he returns on the Mtlof Olives and it is split in two or he returns riding on a white horse? For your information Zachariah is addressing the people of Judah who have returned from exile in Babylon, encouraging them to rebuild Jerusalem, reassuring them of God's protection and presence among them.

 

[Arial]

It's not about Christ returning on a white horse symbolically or literally.

So you are back peddling. Well, that's a good start, because before you made the white horse a literal issue.

It's about Christ leaving and the angels saying Christ would return in the same manner. The white horse is a different returning.

No it isn't. If you think it is, then you think the Bible contradicts itself. The thing to do would be to find out why it is not a contradiction. Which I did actually show you when I gave the covenant view of that passage. The white horse is signifying something, not the literal manner in which he will return.

 

[Josheb]

Rev 13:7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,

The tribulation is a future event.

I also. thank. you for the 3rd event where christians were removed from Judgement.
First is Noan. The second is Lot and the third when the were the christians removed from Jerusalem.
The 4th will be the rapture.

In the days of Noah the ones who were taken away were destroyed. In the days of Noah the ones who remained behind went on to live in a covenant relationship with God here on earth, and the only response anyone should have to that is, "Amen! Praise God!" The "in the days of Noah" is, therefore, not a rapture-supporting text.


Will you go on record affirming those facts?

 

[Josheb]

Quite the contradiction

Not at all. Jesus does not leave heaven at all during the events you have posted. He stays enthroned in heaven. No contradiction on my part at all. You're the one who has him leaving and coming and going multiples times without a single word of scripture actually explicitly stating any such thing. Dispensational Premillennialism and its kindred alternatives are bad eschatology. Blatantly false teaching.

 

[Arial]

Entering the trib will likened to the days of Noah.

In what way? We have to go by the "way" in which Jesus likened it. There is no legitimate reason to connect what Jesus said about Noah in Matt 24 to a rapture. He isn't connecting it to a rapture of the saints, sparing them the judgement when it comes. (And btw, Christians being here when this supposed seven year tribulation occurrs would not mean they were receiving the wrath of God, even if all all non believers around them were. Judgment would not be falling on them, even if they suffered because of the judgment.) Were the martyrs of the past and those of today being judged by God when they were killed?

But back to Noah. Jesus, when he mentions the days of Noah, is not even connecting it to gross sinfulness that existed in Noah's day. He is only connecting it to "life goes on as normal" with those who were about to have the ax dropped on their neck being completely unaware that it was about to happen. That is the same condition we are in now and will be in until his sudden appearance. And when he appears, the unbelieving will be taken away from the earth to destruction, and the believing will be left to inhabit the earth. Just as happened in Noah's day. It was Noah and his family who were left behind, on the earth, to inhabit it. That is why he said, one will be taken and the other left. Nothing to do with a rapture of the saints to spare them tribulation. It is those he purchased with his blood who will be left behind to inhabit the earth when he returns (once). (See Rev 21.)

 

[CrowCross]

So what returning do you think the white horse is?

The actual physical return at the end of the 7 year tribulation when Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives and it splits. (Zech 14:4) As we all know this event hasn'thappened yet. I meant to say Zech 14 in post 59 above when I replied to @Arial .

how many returns is He making in your view?

It's not my view, it's the biblical view and understood by many theologians.
Jesus will return twice. Once in the clouds and then nagain at the end of the 7 tribulation as mentioned in the above paragraph.

If Christ was going to return IN THE SAME MANNER that He left, why did the disciples stop looking up?

I suppose the angels were saying... 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”.....Jesus was just taken up and I might add, not on a white horse. How long do you think they should be watching an empty sky?

Then again we are told...When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
We see those things happening now. We should be looking up now. Are you looking up?

Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,......our resurrection is our blessed hope.

They were asked why they were looking up, then they were told He would return in like manner as He left, then they stopped looking up.

Why?

Because the angels asked why??? Perhaps they expected Jesus to return in a few minutes. Who knows. Do you have an answer?
When we watch a loved one depart on a trip we often stand there and watch until the car is gone from sight...and still may watch a little longer.

He clearly left in the up direction - so why did that make them immediately stop anticipating - and start working,?

The next thing they did was went to Jerusalem....there they met in the upper room and prayed. Then they cast lots for the next apostle.
Pentecost then occurred..Peter preached and three thousand were saved.

What do you consider as starting to work?

I agree we need to be spreading the Gospel at speed, but my reasons might be different than yours. What is happening in the world should never affect it.

Then again we are given the signs of Christ return....those signs are seen all over the place.

What does happen in the world affects how we prepare the people. That's all.

Yes, when we see technology advance....to the point that the system of Rev13 is almost here...as well as the other signs occurring..should we not be telling people Jesus is coming back sooner than some think?

 

[Arial]

@CrowCross
I am still waiting for you to counter my post #38 so you can hang onto your more than two returns of Christ.

 

[Josheb]

For those who put the Rapture and the Second Coming at roughly the same time, I offer this list of contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Each number in one section corresponds to the same number in the other section. This is also a list that supports the Rapture happening before the Tribulation, and the Second Coming happening at the end of the Tribulation. You will find a list like this one in many Prophecy books.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins


This is a pretty solid chart for Pre Tribbers

There is nothing "solid" about this "chart." For one thing, it is utterly devoid of scriptural citation supporting it claims. If and when scripture is ever assigned to support the list few of the scriptures will actually mention any rapture. The entire list is predicated on inferences based on an eisegetic interpretation of scripture.

 

[Josheb]

@CrowCross,

Does anyone know the day or hour of Christ's return?

 

[CrowCross]

Not at all. Jesus does not leave heaven at all during the events you have posted. He stays enthroned in heaven. No contradiction on my part at all. You're the one who has him leaving and coming and going multiples times without a single word of scripture actually explicitly stating any such thing. Dispensational Premillennialism and its kindred alternatives are bad eschatology. Blatantly false teaching.

The bible not Dispensational Premillennialism tells us Jesus returns for His people prior to the tribulation period then once again at the end.

Those who you distastefully call "Dispensational Premillennialism" understand...and I might add...have not placed every piece of the so-called puzzel...

We can know the tribulation hasn't happen yet as there is MUCH in Revelation that hasn't happened yet. As for me I'm going with the understood truth of what has been revealed...the Word correctly divided by the "Dispensational Premillennialism" as you like to label them

Jesus said... I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown......I don't intend to allow you to take my crown.

 

[CrowCross]

There is nothing "solid" about this "chart." For one thing, it is utterly devoid of scriptural citation supporting it claims. If and when scripture is ever assigned to support the list few of the scriptures will actually mention any rapture. The entire list is predicated on inferences based on an eisegetic interpretation of scripture.

LOL....I could say the same for your escatological belief.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The white horse is signifying something, not the literal manner in which he will return.

I was thinking of posting this here



"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." Daniel 12:1-3

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross,

Does anyone know the day or hour of Christ's return?

Nope. But we can know the signs and season. LOOK UP!!!! The signs are all over the place.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nope. But we can know the signs and season. LOOK UP!!!! The signs are all over the place.

Stop looking up!

Why do you look up?

 

[CrowCross]

I was thinking of posting this here



"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." Daniel 12:1-3

Those times of trouble have not been witnessed yet.

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

As one commentary puts is:
This phrase has been interpreted in various ways. Some see it as referring to the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8), which occurs shortly after this statement and reveals Jesus' divine glory to Peter, James, and John. Others interpret it as the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, or the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which demonstrated Jesus' prophetic authority and the establishment of His spiritual kingdom. Each of these events signifies the inauguration of the kingdom of God in different aspects, highlighting Jesus' role as the Messiah and King.

Though the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was significant....there is no mention of Jesus returning at that event.

 

[CrowCross]

Stop looking up!

Why do you look up?

Well, I don't walk around all day long looking into the sky...I hope you don't think that's what I mean.

I do look for the signs of Christ soon return at the rapture...and they are here.

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross
I am still waiting for you to counter my post #38 so you can hang onto your more than two returns of Christ.

I did in post 41.

In other post I have mentioned that whether it is literal or symbolic (which you hold onto)...Jesus didn't leave in that literal or symbolic fashion.

Do you not trust what the angels said?

 

[Josheb]

The bible not Dispensational Premillennialism tells us Jesus returns for His people prior to the tribulation period then once again at the end.

That claim has already been proven false. Jesus explicitly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation, He explicitly stated they would see the sign of his coming after the great tribulation, and the congregants of Revelation 7 are explicitly stated to have gone through the great tribulation.

The Bible does not state Jesus returns prior to the tribulation to remove his people from the planet.

Those who you distastefully...

There will be no more tolerance for attempts to change the subject. You claimed Jesus' comment in Matthew 24 about the days of Noah was a reference to the rapture and that is not true. It has been irrefutably demonstrated using Jesus' own words that the ones who were taken away in Noah's day were destroyed and the ones who remained behind, going through the tribulation of the flood, went on to live life in a covenant relationship with God.

LOL....I could say the same for your escatological belief.

Perhaps, but my eschatological belief is not the subject of this discussion. This op claims scripture supports a rapture separated from the second coming, but the op is devoid of scripture. In defense of this op YOU claimed the days of Noah says a lot about the rapture being separated from the second coming but that is not true. There's no mention of the rapture in any of the scriptures pertaining to the days of Noah. I posted all of them. I went through each and every single one of them.

In the days of Noah the ones said to have been taken away were destroyed and the ones who remained lived life in a covenant relationship with God.

That is what we are discussing. Please stop trying to change the topic and address the fact Jesus plainly stated the ones taken away by the flood were destroyed.

 

[Josheb]

@CrowCross,

Does anyone know the day or hour of Christ's return?

Nope.

Does the rapture occur seven years prior to Christ's return?

 

[CrowCross]

That claim has already been proven false. Jesus explicitly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation, He explicitly stated they would see the sign of his coming after the great tribulation, and the congregants of Revelation 7 are explicitly stated to have gone through the great tribulation.

So? Tribulation comes in different levels. You should know that. Sheeze.
Tribulation is seen in the beginning of the "birth pains" as well as the end....and into the time of Jacobs trouble and during the time of Jacobs trouble.

(Edit: Please refrain for calling members insulting names.}

The Bible does not state Jesus returns prior to the tribulation to remove his people from the planet.

Yes it does. Now, the bible may not come out and directly say those words you posted...just as the bible doesn't say there is a trinity (which there is)...but the bible strongly infers both positions as being biblical fact.

There will be no more tolerance for attempts to change the subject. You claimed Jesus' comment in Matthew 24 about the days of Noah was a reference to the rapture and that is not true. It has been irrefutably demonstrated using Jesus' own words that the ones who were taken away in Noah's day were destroyed and the ones who remained behind, going through the tribulation of the flood, went on to live life in a covenant relationship with God.

It has not been "irrefutably demonstrated" so please climb down from your soap box.
noah was taken away from the destruction on the ark.

God saved...preserved...kept Noah from....phulassó....what the judgement of the flood would do.
God used an ark to deliver Noah...God removed Noah from the destruction about to flood the world. God will remove the christians from the earth before the great tribulation...the time of wrath mentioned in Revelation. From the "hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

As Jesus said....34But watch yourselves, or your hearts will be weighed down by dissipation, drunkenness, and the worries of life—and that day will spring upon you suddenly like a snare. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Even 2 thes 2 points it out...1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

I won't be deceived by your, let's say, misunderstood scripture.

2 Tim 4:8 says...From now on there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing. I'm sorry you don't crave His appearing...

As Rev 3 says....I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Perhaps, but my eschatological belief is not the subject of this discussion. This op claims scripture supports a rapture separated from the second coming, but the op is devoid of scripture. In defense of this op YOU claimed the days of Noah says a lot about the rapture being separated from the second coming but that is not true. There's no mention of the rapture in any of the scriptures pertaining to the days of Noah. I posted all of them. I went through each and every single one of them.

Are you still saying people will be partying...eating and drinking, getting married...just before Jesus returns on the white horse and the armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses?

Do you think the tribulation will be a walk in the park? What do you think the world will look like then????

In the days of Noah the ones said to have been taken away were destroyed and the ones who remained lived life in a covenant relationship with God.

That is what we are discussing. Please stop trying to change the topic and address the fact Jesus plainly stated the ones taken away by the flood were destroyed.

I haven't changed the topic...so, STOP making that claim.

God saved...preserved...kept Noah from....phulassó....what the judgement of the flood would do. Jesus will do the same at the rapture.....LOOK UP!!!!