The Rapture or the Second Coming

[CrowCross]

Have you not noticed the four horsemen yet? Really?

Welcome to war, famine, plague, and death. They've been galloping through history since the first century.

Thanks for the reply....If we were sitting in a bible study i would ask you the following questions:

Who was the rider on the White Horse?
When has a quart of wheat cost a days wages? Perhaps you can find a place in some 3rd world corner of the world...but not to the extent the bible mentions.
You seem to be saying the 4 horsemen are here....fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.......when has a 1/4 of the world been killed? Yes famine and pestilence have occurred...but not to the biblical extent mentioned in Revelations.

 

[Arial]

To that I say...so what?
If we look at the historical practice of the Jews in the time of Jesus we see a parallel to a Jewish wedding and the events pertaining to Jesus.

When you say "so what?" to the idea of the return of a victorious King you also say "so what?" to the comparison of a Jewish wedding.
I will ask you this: Does Jesus return as a victorious King? Is he even now a victorious King as to having safely taken his people out of the hands of Satan's kingdom and brought them into his kingdom, sealed by the Holy Spirit? Is his return in victory not pictured in 1 Cor 15:51-55

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written "Death is swallowed up in victory." "o death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Do we not see his return and the rapture in 1 Thess 4: 13-17 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as other do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Does it say there that Jesus goes back up, or that he continues down and we continue up? No, it says we will always be with the Lord.

What is the last trumpet? Rev 11:15-18 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever. ANd the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

Rev 19:11-16 is what happens before Rev 19:1-10. Vs 11-16 is a reiteration from a different perspective of Rev 18. We can see this in Rev 17-21 where the wedding supper of the Lamb is again mentioned.

Those who come with Christ at his second advent in Rev 19 are the glorified saints of 1 Cor 15, according to Reformed theology, (And you may be Calvinist, adhering to the TULIP, but you are not Reformed. Reformed is a covenant theology. You are dispensational) who share in his triumph.

The marriage supper represents the final eternal communion of Christ with his Bride (the Church), which has been progressively unfolding throughout redemptive history. It is the eschatological fulfillment of all God's covenant promises.

In his first coming, Christ came to secure the Bride through his atoning work. The marriage supper depicts the consummation---when the Church, purified and glorified, enter into eternal joy and fellowship with Christ. (Rev 21).

 

[Arial]

So, according to you we are in the book of Revelation???? Yes? What chapter are we up to?

I would like to see you deal with the full content of @Hazelelponi post instead of "cute quips".

 

[Josheb]

Eh. Depends upon how you want to look at it.

No, it does not depend on how you, I, or anyone else "looks" at it. What it depends on are the facts of scripture and the fact is exactly as I stated and Jesus made that very clear in his additional comments on the matter.

Noah was taken away from the judgement and destruction of the flood in the ark. Lot was taken away from the judgement and destruction of Sodom. Luke 17:29-29.

Here's what Jesus said, in its entirety, about the Noah's day taking away in Matthew 24,

Matthew 24:37-41
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

The word "they" refers to those who were eating and drinking and carrying on until the day Noah entered the ark. Here's what he said in Luke 17,

Luke 17:22-35
And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and, likewise, the one who is in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.

Jesus removes all ambiguity in Luke's report. The ones taken away by the flood were destroyed. It was Noah and the other seven family members who remained. God's chosen people remained to continue living in a covenant relationship with their Creator. So, we see that when the entire passage is read as a whole it is impossible to use either text as something that supports the modern futurist rapture.

Christians will be taken away from the judgement and destruction of the tribulation when the rapture/resurrection occurs. We should comfort each other with those words.

Dispensational Premillennialists are the only ones who believe that. I have told you this multiple times. I have posted a Dispensationalist's own comparison chart multiple times in this forum, like HERE. You know that everyone else believes the rapture and second coming coincide and are not separated. You also know this separated-rapture end times viewpoint began in the 19th century. It is not something Christianity held to be true or orthodox in its entire 2000 years existence. It is the Dispensationalist viewpoint that is both the normative and statistical outlier.

More importantly, the texts of Matthew 24 and Luke 17 preclude all possibility of the Dispensational Premillennial interpretation because the ones taken away by the flood were destroyed. The flood came and destroyed them all.

Genesis 7:17-23
Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus, He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

Noah and his family were the ones left behind. They were the ones who remained. Jesus was telling his disciples a lot of people were going to be killed. They'd be taken away, destroyed, but God's people would remain. This is also why the Dispensationalist/modern futurist interpretation of Matthew 24:21 is incorrect. If the tribulation was/is literally worse than anything ever then only seven or fewer people will survive. The flood destroyed all life on the land and only eight people survived it. Every time any worse-than-anything-ever preacher (Dispensationalist or not) teaches more than seven people will survive the tribulation he is teaching falsely. He has contradicted scripture.

Are you catching any of this @EddieM?


The rapture position CANNOT be supported by Matthew 24:37-38 when the rest of the passage is included. Christians do not escape the tribulation. Matthew 24:9 explicitly states the disciples would be handed over to tribulation. Verse 29 explicitly states they will see the sky darkened and the sign of Christ's appearance after the tribulation - the great tribulation of verse 21! In verse 16 Jesus told the disciples, "...those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." It would be impossible to flee to the mountains if they have been removed from the planet! In Revelation 7 the following is stated,

Revelation 7:14-15
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple...."

Christians endure the great tribulation. They are not removed from the planet as John Darby and Cyrus Scofield taught. Christians are delivered to tribulation. After the great tribulation they see the sign of Christ's coming, they come out of the tribulation with robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb. That is what Christianity has always believed..... that is until Darby, Scofield, and others invented modern futurism. Modern futurists have been telling Christians and non-Christians the rapture is soon coming, the time is near but they have not been correct in 200 years since they began the practice of prognosticating.

Matthew 24:23-26
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There he is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.

Do not believe them.

In the days of Noah, the ones who were taken away were the ones who God destroyed, and it was the ones who were left behind that went on to live in a salvific covenant relationship with God. They went through that tribulation and that tribulation was worse than anything that has ever happened, before or since. We should pray God never decrees a tribulation worse than that before His Son's return.

 

[Josheb]

P.S. all the purple is for @Josheb

LOL!

I can see clearly now the text is purple.
I can see all the words in the post.
Gone are the squinting eyes that had me down.
It's going to be a bright, bright, sun-shiny day.

 

[CrowCross]

When you say "so what?" to the idea of the return of a victorious King you also say "so what?" to the comparison of a Jewish wedding.

You forget...Jesus didn't leave as a victorious King. When Jesus appears He will not be like the description in Rev 19.

I will ask you this: Does Jesus return as a victorious King? Is he even now a victorious King as to having safely taken his people out of the hands of Satan's kingdom and brought them into his kingdom, sealed by the Holy Spirit? Is his return in victory not pictured in 1 Cor 15:51-55

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written "Death is swallowed up in victory." "o death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Do we not see his return and the rapture in 1 Thess 4: 13-17 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as other do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Does it say there that Jesus goes back up, or that he continues down and we continue up? No, it says we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus said...."And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back " That's the rapture! Jesus will take the christians to the place prepared by Jesus.... Not earth. Now, when Jesus is riding the white horse....different story.

What is the last trumpet?

The bible has several references for trumpets. There is the trumpet of angels and there is the trumpet of God.
Are you referring to the trumpet of angels or God?

Rev 11:15-18 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever. ANd the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

Rev 19:11-16 is what happens before Rev 19:1-10. Vs 11-16 is a reiteration from a different perspective of Rev 18. We can see this in Rev 17-21 where the wedding supper of the Lamb is again mentioned.

Those who come with Christ at his second advent in Rev 19 are the glorified saints of 1 Cor 15, according to Reformed theology, (And you may be Calvinist, adhering to the TULIP, but you are not Reformed. Reformed is a covenant theology. You are dispensational) who share in his triumph.

I don't wear labels. Every theology has portions wrong. In fact I like your theology. I also understand you get eschatology wrong. But that's ok. If the rapture occurs you'll be whether you believe it or not.

The marriage supper represents the final eternal communion of Christ with his Bride (the Church), which has been progressively unfolding throughout redemptive history. It is the eschatological fulfillment of all God's covenant promises.

In his first coming, Christ came to secure the Bride through his atoning work. The marriage supper depicts the consummation---when the Church, purified and glorified, enter into eternal joy and fellowship with Christ. (Rev 21).

 

[CrowCross]

No, it does not depend on how you, I, or anyone else "looks" at it. What it depends on are the facts of scripture and the fact is exactly as I stated and Jesus made that very clear in his additional comments on the matter.

Here's what Jesus said, in its entirety, about the Noah's day taking away in Matthew 24,

Matthew 24:37-41
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

The word "they" refers to those who were eating and drinking and carrying on until the day Noah entered the ark. Here's what he said in Luke 17,

Luke 17:22-35
And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and, likewise, the one who is in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.

Jesus removes all ambiguity in Luke's report. The ones taken away by the flood were destroyed. It was Noah and the other seven family members who remained. God's chosen people remained to continue living in a covenant relationship with their Creator. So, we see that when the entire passage is read as a whole it is impossible to use either text as something that supports the modern futurist rapture.

Dispensational Premillennialists are the only ones who believe that. I have told you this multiple times. I have posted a Dispensationalist's own comparison chart multiple times in this forum, like HERE. You know that everyone else believes the rapture and second coming coincide and are not separated. You also know this separated-rapture end times viewpoint began in the 19th century. It is not something Christianity held to be true or orthodox in its entire 2000 years existence. It is the Dispensationalist viewpoint that is both the normative and statistical outlier.

More importantly, the texts of Matthew 24 and Luke 17 preclude all possibility of the Dispensational Premillennial interpretation because the ones taken away by the flood were destroyed. The flood came and destroyed them all.

Genesis 7:17-23
Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus, He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

Noah and his family were the ones left behind. They were the ones who remained. Jesus was telling his disciples a lot of people were going to be killed. They'd be taken away, destroyed, but God's people would remain. This is also why the Dispensationalist/modern futurist interpretation of Matthew 24:21 is incorrect. If the tribulation was/is literally worse than anything ever then only seven or fewer people will survive. The flood destroyed all life on the land and only eight people survived it. Every time any worse-than-anything-ever preacher (Dispensationalist or not) teaches more than seven people will survive the tribulation he is teaching falsely. He has contradicted scripture.

Are you catching any of this @EddieM?


The rapture position CANNOT be supported by Matthew 24:37-38 when the rest of the passage is included. Christians do not escape the tribulation. Matthew 24:9 explicitly states the disciples would be handed over to tribulation. Verse 29 explicitly states they will see the sky darkened and the sign of Christ's appearance after the tribulation - the great tribulation of verse 21! In verse 16 Jesus told the disciples, "...those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." It would be impossible to flee to the mountains if they have been removed from the planet! In Revelation 7 the following is stated,

Revelation 7:14-15
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple...."

Christians endure the great tribulation. They are not removed from the planet as John Darby and Cyrus Scofield taught. Christians are delivered to tribulation. After the great tribulation they see the sign of Christ's coming, they come out of the tribulation with robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb. That is what Christianity has always believed..... that is until Darby, Scofield, and others invented modern futurism. Modern futurists have been telling Christians and non-Christians the rapture is soon coming, the time is near but they have not been correct in 200 years since they began the practice of prognosticating.

Matthew 24:23-26
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There he is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.

Do not believe them.

In the days of Noah, the ones who were taken away were the ones who God destroyed, and it was the ones who were left behind that went on to live in a salvific covenant relationship with God. They went through that tribulation and that tribulation was worse than anything that has ever happened, before or since. We should pray God never decrees a tribulation worse than that before His Son's return.

As I said, it depends on how you look at it. They were taken away to the grave and Noah was taken away from the judgement.

There will be no happy times with people giving in marriage and having parties at the end of the rapture. This disqualifies the verse relating it to the rider on the white horse....the second coming. Instead it speaks of Jesus returning the same way He left. Jesus didn't say...Giddy-up to the white horse.

 

[CrowCross]

I would like to see you deal with the full content of @Hazelelponi post instead of "cute quips".

We'll see how well they answer the questions.

I'd rather you show me how Jesus left (ascended) on a white horse....or in the symbolism as you like to say.

 

[Eleanor]

To be honest it really doesn't matter if you see it as literal or symbolic....Jesus didn't leave with all the splendor described in the return in Rev 19

When you compare the two descriptions...as we should...we read where the angels say Jesus will return the same way Jesus left.

How is the description of the return the same as how Jesus left?

In the NT record,, he left on a cloud/with the clouds and, therefore, will return on a cloud/with the clouds.

When Jesus left He didn't judge and wage war like the account presents it.
Acts 1 doesn't say His eyes were like blazing fire...literal or symbolic.
Acts 1 doesn't mention a name written on Jesus that only Jesus knows.
When Jesus ascended into heaven...was He wearing a robe dipped in blood?
I'll grant you Jesus name is the Word of God.
When Jesus ascended were there armies following Him like are described in Rev 19...literally or symbolically?

The answer....Jesus comes back (appears) at the rapture then 7 years later at the actual return where He stands on the Mt of Olives and it splits. Zech 14.

The bible speaks of the 7 year tribulation or as some like to call it, time of Jacobs trouble.

That's not how I or others see it. I'll try to correct you concerning the pre-tribulation rapture view.

There will be bad times leading up to the rapture. Matt 24 speaks of it. Currently we are in the most heightened state of wars and rumor of wars that the people on the earth have ever seen. Earthquakes have increased....though there has been no "big one" recently. This progression of pre-trib tribulation will grow at an increasing pace....as Jesus said, this is the beginning of the birth pains.

So, as a christian...a pre-trib believe I expect trouble ahead for the christians. I see state run physical and financial persecution of Christians before the rapture. To what extent, I don't know.
As you asked.....Will they be tearing out their hair crying, "I was supposed to be out of here before this happened!....The answer is no.
Jesus has forwarded us....He also said.... but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Yes, I expect hard times before the rapture. Just how hard I don't know. I do know christians are not destined for the wrath of the tribulation. Why would Jesus let His bride enter into the judgement of the tribulation????

 

[Josheb]

As I said, it depends on how you look at it. They were taken away to the grave and Noah was taken away from the judgement.

Sophistry.

They were not taken away.


1 Peter 3:17-20
For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

They were brought safely through the water. They were brought safely through the destructive judgment that killed everyone else. They were not removed from the planet. Noah witnessed the destruction of humanity (except for himself and seven others). He watched the people screaming and clamoring for escape. He heard them debase themselves before their last breath. He saw the corpses floating in the rain and he watched them bloat and rot or get chewed up by fish, and if any bodies remained after the waters subsided, he then watched them rot, bursting with the stench of death that was everywhere. Noah escaped death. He did not escape judgment.

2 Peter 2:4-10
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly; and if He rescued righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the perverted conduct of unscrupulous people (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from a trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt passion, and despise authority.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Noah and his family were not removed from the planet. The ungodly were the ones removed from the planet. That is the point of the flood: God wiped the earth clean of the ungodly.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await him.

There will be people waiting for him when he comes a second time. They are waiting for a second coming, not a rapture separated from a second coming. They are not floating in the air above the surface of the planet from which they have been removed.

There will be no happy times with people giving in marriage and having parties at the end of the rapture. This disqualifies the verse relating it to the rider on the white horse....the second coming.

No, it does not. No such qualification exists. That is rank eisegesis that ignores the facts of the larger text and its Genesis 6-9 reference.

And now you've screwed up the white horse text. Where does the white horse actually state Jesus physically comes to the earth?
And you've also done what every other DPer does when confronted with correctly rendered scripture: change the topic!

Instead, it speaks of Jesus returning the same way He left. Jesus didn't say...Giddy-up to the white horse.

Irrelevant. The point being discussed is the fact the people taken away in the days of Noah were the ones destroyed. Genesis states that fact. Matthew states that fact. Luke states that fact. Anything else is an addition to God's word, an unsupported addition to scripture. If you want to maintain a separated rapture position, then do it without appeals to "in the days of Noah." Using that reference is bad exegesis.

 

[CrowCross]

In the NT record,, he left on a cloud/with the clouds and, therefore, will return on a cloud/with the clouds.

Exactly. That's what the bible says...

11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Jesus didn't leave on a white horse....or the way the "symbolism" is suggested in Rev 19.

 

[CrowCross]

Sophistry.

They were not taken away.


1 Peter 3:17-20
For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

They were brought safely through the water. They were brought safely through the destructive judgment that killed everyone else. They were not removed from the planet. Noah witnessed the destruction of humanity (except for himself and seven others). He watched the people screaming and clamoring for escape. He heard them debase themselves before their last breath. He saw the corpses floating in the rain and he watched them bloat and rot or get chewed up by fish, and if any bodies remained after the waters subsided, he then watched them rot, bursting with the stench of death that was everywhere. Noah escaped death. He did not escape judgment.

2 Peter 2:4-10
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly; and if He rescued righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the perverted conduct of unscrupulous people (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from a trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt passion, and despise authority.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Noah and his family were not removed from the planet. The ungodly were the ones removed from the planet. That is the point of the flood: God wiped the earth clean of the ungodly.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await him.

There will be people waiting for him when he comes a second time. They are waiting for a second coming, not a rapture separated from a second coming. They are not floating in the air above the surface of the planet from which they have been removed.

No, it does not. No such qualification exists. That is rank eisegesis that ignores the facts of the larger text and its Genesis 6-9 reference.

And now you've screwed up the white horse text. Where does the white horse actually state Jesus physically comes to the earth?
And you've also done what every other DPer does when confronted with correctly rendered scripture: change the topic!

Irrelevant. The point being discussed is the fact the people taken away in the days of Noah were the ones destroyed. Genesis states that fact. Matthew states that fact. Luke states that fact. Anything else is an addition to God's word, an unsupported addition to scripture. If you want to maintain a separated rapture position, then do it without appeals to "in the days of Noah." Using that reference is bad exegesis.

I've read them.....As I said, it depends on how you look at it.

The following verse speaks of Lot being removed from Sodom....it was tied in with Noah....both making the same point.
Both Noah and Lot were removed from the judgement. The book of Revelation speaks of judgement. Christians are not destined for wrath.

You should be comforted by those words.

 

[Arial]

We'll see how well they answer the questions.

I'd rather you show me how Jesus left (ascended) on a white horse....or in the symbolism as you like to say

IOW you expect us to answer your questions and you have no responsibility to answer ours? We are to address the content of your posts and you will dismiss ours as irrelevant. Who is the "they" btw.

"You would rather they show you how Jesus left on a white horse----? This forum isn't about catering to the "rather"s of one participant. It is meant to be an equal back and forth. @Hazelelponi did a bang up job and this post of yours is a response where I said I would like to see you address her points. And this is how you reply?

If "they" give an account from their view of the Jesus, the white horse, ascending, symbolism, do you intend to address it? Or will that too be a vain attempt to have a coherent conversation about it?

 

[Arial]

You forget...Jesus didn't leave as a victorious King.

I forgot nothing. It is really sad that you do not realize the victory he won on the cross or that he is a King now.

Jesus said...."And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back " That's the rapture! Jesus will take the christians to the place prepared by Jesus.... Not earth. Now, when Jesus is riding the white horse....different story.

There is no hint of a pre-trib rapture or any rapture at all in that passage. It is 100% read into it. If we did before he returns, we go to be with the Lord. If we remain alive when he returns, we are changed, the dead in Christ are raised and we meet him in the air. No mention of mansions. Quite possible the 23 elders in Rev are the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles. And what is your obsession with the white horse? Really. It is like what a ten year old would picture---Jesus coming back riding on a white horse. Sorry. But that is a fact.

Now, how about you deal with the scriptures I gave instead of ignoring them. You undermine your own case when you post the way you do, refusing to deal with the posts of others. You show you can't do it, or that you consider what they have to say just too trivial to deal with.

The bible has several references for trumpets. There is the trumpet of angels and there is the trumpet of God.
Are you referring to the trumpet of angels or God?

I am referring to the last trumpet. In Paul's passage he connects it to the seventh trumpet in Revelation when the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of God. Paul says it is an Christ's return. ANd he only ever mentions one return and no other Bible writer ever mentions more than one return. I actually quoted the Scripture, so don't know why you are asking.

I also understand you get eschatology wrong. But that's ok. If the rapture occurs you'll be whether you believe it or not.

That is kind of puffed up isn't it?

 

[CrowCross]

I forgot nothing. It is really sad that you do not realize the victory he won on the cross or that he is a King now.

There is no hint of a pre-trib rapture or any rapture at all in that passage. It is 100% read into it. If we did before he returns, we go to be with the Lord. If we remain alive when he returns, we are changed, the dead in Christ are raised and we meet him in the air. No mention of mansions. Quite possible the 23 elders in Rev are the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles. And what is your obsession with the white horse? Really. It is like what a ten year old would picture---Jesus coming back riding on a white horse. Sorry. But that is a fact.

Now, how about you deal with the scriptures I gave instead of ignoring them. You undermine your own case when you post the way you do, refusing to deal with the posts of others. You show you can't do it, or that you consider what they have to say just too trivial to deal with.

I am referring to the last trumpet. In Paul's passage he connects it to the seventh trumpet in Revelation when the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of God. Paul says it is an Christ's return. ANd he only ever mentions one return and no other Bible writer ever mentions more than one return. I actually quoted the Scripture, so don't know why you are asking.

That is kind of puffed up isn't it?

I find it amazing someone with your biblical knowledge can't connect the dots. You simply whisk away your problems.

When someone can explain away the white horse ....I'll drop the 2 returns of Christ Jesus.

 

[Josheb]

I've read them.....As I said, it depends on how you look at it.

That is a recipe for relativism.

The following verse speaks of Lot being removed from Sodom....it was tied in with Noah....both making the same point.

Nope. Lot, like Noah, remained behind and everyone else was taken away in destructive judgement. The response, "Well, it depends on how you look at it," is wrong. It is an avoidant response that fails to engage what is plainly stated. If what is explicitly stated is taken as written, then there's no reason to add anything to the text.

Both Noah and Lot were removed from the judgement.

No, they were not. They were not "removed" at all and I ask you right here and now to show me a verse stating "Noah was removed from judgment. Noah not being exposed to judgment is a completely different reality than his being "removed" from judgment. The introduction of "removed" is adding to scripture, it is eisegetic, it is a false equivalence, it is a bait and switch.

It is not scripture.

The book of Revelation speaks of judgement.

Yep.

But we're not discussing Revelation's speaking of judgment. We are discussing the fact that in the days of Noah it was the ones who were taken away that were destroyed. That's what the original Genesis text plainly states, that's what the text of Matthew 24 plainly states, and that's what the text of Luke 17 plainly states. None of those texts state Christians are removed from the planet to be removed from judgment. What they state in both word and precedent is that Christians go through God's judgment and, in the end, they remain to live in a covenant relationship with God while the ungodly are the ones removed.

Christians are not destined for wrath.

Yep. Not a point in dispute. Just another red herring that avoids the fact that in the days of Noah it was the ungodly who were taken away and it was Noah and his family that remained.

You should be comforted by those words.

My comfort is not the subject of this discussion. We are discussing the fact that in the days of Noah it was those who were destroyed by the flood that were taken away, and the ones who remained behind, going through the tribulation and judgment of the ungodly that remained.

Two one the roof. One is taken away and the other remains. When measured by the days of Noah that means the ungodly one was taken away for destruction and the one remaining was a godly person. Two working out in a field. Same thing: the one taken away was taken away in destruction and the one remaining was still alive in the field or on the roof of a house that is still on the planet (not raptured).

 

[Arial]

I find it amazing someone with your biblical knowledge can't connect the dots. You simply whisk away your problems.

When someone can explain away the white horse ....I'll drop the 2 returns of Christ Jesus.

Well, I see, trying to carry on a civil and edifying conversation with you has not improved in your absence. Don't be such a know-it-all. Learn how to converse with others.

 

[Arial]

When someone can explain away the white horse ....I'll drop the 2 returns of Christ Jesus.

How about it just be explained. Unless you can actually counter the explanation, I expect you to keep your word.

Rev 19:11-16 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and Tre, and in righteousness he judges and makes war...

Keep in mind John is seeing a vision and like all his other visions, it is given with symbols that are signifying truths.

The rider is Jesus-coming not as Savior in humiliation but as Judge and King at his second coming.

The white horse signifies victory and purity. We see "white" signifying purity, holiness, or righteousness elsewhere in the Bible (Dan 7:9; Isa 1:18; Rev 3:4-5; 7:9, 13-14).

And we see the horse associated with warfare, strength, and speed (Job 29:19-25 and elsewhere). So the white horse signifies righteous intent and divine victory. Just as the rest of Rev 19 along with 18 and 21 depict.

In Zech 1:8 and 6:1-8 we see colored horses in another vision. The white horses go toward the west. These don't explicitly define "white horse=victory but they establish representatives of heavenly missions and divine action linked to symbolically colored horses.

Christ comes to complete the promises of the covenant of grace: to rescue his people, vindicate his name, and bring final judgement. It fulfills texts such as Gen 3:15; Ps 2;Isa 11

His robe dipped in blood is judgment language. Rev 19 shows Christ fulfilling the covenant of grace and inaugurating the new creation order of Rev 21. It is apocalyptic imagery showing the outworking of God's eternal plan of redemption where Christ returns as the faithful covenant king to rule in righteousness.

No need for a literal white horse to carry Jesus who is God, to victory.

 

[CrowCross]

That is a recipe for relativism.

Nope. Lot, like Noah, remained behind and everyone else was taken away in destructive judgement. The response, "Well, it depends on how you look at it," is wrong. It is an avoidant response that fails to engage what is plainly stated. If what is explicitly stated is taken as written, then there's no reason to add anything to the text.

No, they were not. They were not "removed" at all and I ask you right here and now to show me a verse stating "Noah was removed from judgment. Noah not being exposed to judgment is a completely different reality than his being "removed" from judgment. The introduction of "removed" is adding to scripture, it is eisegetic, it is a false equivalence, it is a bait and switch.

It is not scripture.

What you are saying is that there will be no christians killed during the tribulation. You do know that's incorrect?

Yep.

But we're not discussing Revelation's speaking of judgment.

Yes we are. Entering the trib will likened to the days of Noah.

We are discussing the fact that in the days of Noah it was the ones who were taken away that were destroyed. That's what the original Genesis text plainly states, that's what the text of Matthew 24 plainly states, and that's what the text of Luke 17 plainly states. None of those texts state Christians are removed from the planet to be removed from judgment. What they state in both word and precedent is that Christians go through God's judgment and, in the end, they remain to live in a covenant relationship with God while the ungodly are the ones removed.

Once again....please explain to me how people will be having parties...good times...marriages at the end of the trib?

Yep. Not a point in dispute. Just another red herring that avoids the fact that in the days of Noah it was the ungodly who were taken away and it was Noah and his family that remained.

I don't disagree. Noah was removed from the judgement.
Jesus paid the price for our judgment....no need to have them remain and suffer through the "judgement and wrath" of the trib.

My comfort is not the subject of this discussion. We are discussing the fact that in the days of Noah it was those who were destroyed by the flood that were taken away, and the ones who remained behind, going through the tribulation and judgment of the ungodly that remained.

Yes, Noah, like Lot were removed from the judgement. You seem to disagree.

Two one the roof. One is taken away and the other remains. When measured by the days of Noah that means the ungodly one was taken away for destruction and the one remaining was a godly person. Two working out in a field. Same thing: the one taken away was taken away in destruction and the one remaining was still alive in the field or on the roof of a house that is still on the planet (not raptured).

This verse speaks aout the actual second coming...not the rapture that happened 7 years earlier.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, I see, trying to carry on a civil and edifying conversation with you has not improved in your absence. Don't be such a know-it-all. Learn how to converse with others.

When you will apply proper hermeneutics? One of the rules pertains to contradictions. You seem to apply it in other verses but not the ones pertaining to the rapture and second coming.

If you really want a civil and edifying conversation...explain away your contradictions.