The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves the Christians from the WRATH!!!

[Josheb]

I missed where you said the wrath the church of Philly was delivered from was dumped on the whole world.

Just where did 1/3 of the vegetation burn up? Tell me when the Rev 13 beast system was set up. Who were the two witnesses? When was the sky rolled up like a scroll...... I could make a whole list.

So, show me in history where Revelation happened.

Nope. I'm not going to play Chase the Dispensationalist Endlessly Around the Thread. You will either stick to the matter of Revelation 3:0 or we're done discussing the matter. You will either address the fact you have a huge inconsistency between claiming the verse was written to address events of their day while still claiming the verse is about a rapture in our future or we're done. You will either address the failure to practice the first rule of proper exegesis and understand the text as the original reader would have understood it or we're done. You will either address the fact scripture often speaks of the world meaning the then known world or we're done.

You will either address the many, many flaws in the case this op asserts, or we're done.

I do not do bait and switch.




And, for the record, when you go hopping around from verse to verse to verse to verse and eisegetic claim to eisegetic claim...... Cite the verse you're referencing. If the sky were literally rolled up like a scroll, then all life on the planet would near-instantly cease to exist. That was a foolish thing to post. Asking people when U happened, or V happened, or X, or Y, or Z happened when you are supposed to be discussing A works only to prove you do not know how to stay on topic, you do not know how to address what has been brought to bear on A, and you are willing to employ fallacy to defend the indefensible. I could answer every single new topic you'd like to broach but I will not do so until you have addressed the problems in this op (and I have cited several of them) beginning with Revelation 3:10.

If your next post fails to address the problems cited with your handling of Revelation 3:10 then I will do one of two things: I will either go back to the op and post a list of further problems and ignore any future avoidance on your part, or I'll select "unfollow" and I'll ignore the thread unless there are others who want to discuss the op with me. I do not collaborate with bait-and-switch, red herrings, strawmen, or non sequiturs. You've got plenty to do to address the problems with futuristically interpreting one verse written about events of the first century.

 

[Josheb]

So, show me in history where Revelation happened.

Revelation itself tells its readers that most of it happened either before John wrote the book or while he was writing the book.

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

That is what the book itself explicitly states. The question then is which parts are the "have seen" parts, which parts are the "are parts," and which parts are the "after these things" parts? According to Rev. 1:19 about two-thirds of the book happened in the first century either at the time it was written or prior to it being written. Of the one third that was in John's future...... how much of it is in our future? If you want to know where in history Revelation happened, then start with Revelation 1:19.

Any Christian who claims the entire book of Revelation has yet to occur is contradicting what Revelation states about itself.

So, show me in history where Revelation happened.

I have already explained to you how and why post hoc arguments are fallacious (see Post 39). It is not necessary to be a brain surgeon to understand the foolishness of employing that device.


We are discussing Revelation 3:10. Revelation 3:10 was written to address the events of their day, not events of our day. The mention of "the whole world" must, therefore, be read and understood within that context and this op does not do that. The lapse is a huge mistake. Whether the rest of Revelation is future or not is immaterial. Rev. 3:10 was written about events in their day, not ours.

 

[Arial]

How is it built on sand? Can you support that claim?

I just did. If you weren't able to understand or accept, that is up to you.

'Cause it is. I've given you an example. How are they not little bitty blocks as you called them? Do you know we're in a ange where we no longer sacrifice animals? Do you?

Learn the difference (which I showed you in black and white) between what Christ and the apostles mean they say an age and what you mean when you say an age. It is what Jesus and the apostles mean that counts, Your humanistic meaning counts for nothing. Stop being so flippant and dismissive and learn what a conversation is.

Then this age as you so narrowly defined it ends at the rapture.

It is Jesus who defined it not me. Read the scriptures I gave where he does so. The age to come is seen in Isa. 11 and Rev 21. If this so called pre-trib rapture did exist, it would not be the end of this age, because people are still not glorified, and the world is the same as it was before the imaginary rapture. Fallen. Corrupted.

. Actually one of the ages ended when Jesus died. One of the ages ended with Noah....There was also the age of law....

Nope. Still a fallen world after Jesus died. Nope, still a fallen world after Noah. I don;t think you realize the issue to be dealt with and was dealt with and is being dealt with by Jesus is SIN and all its consequences. You seem entirely focused on getting out of here to escape tribulation, as though that were the gospel. Its a kind of "me, me, me!"

You don't understand age.

I understand perfectly what you mean by "age". But that is not what Jesus and the apostles mean when they speak of two ages. This age and the age to come. That is what you won't accept, even if you do understand it and read the same Bible with the same words of Jesus on the subject that I do. You are more concerned with this pre-trib rapture thing---which is nothing but fear and a low threshold for suffering and not trusting God completely. Because everyone who follows Darby in his wrecked eschatology since it first appeared, thinks they are going to be the one that gets raptured. They really aren't thinking about anyone else but themselves. Not their unsaved loved ones, or their dogs, or cats, or dairy cows left to suffer. And they certainly aren't thinking about Jesus.

LOL....you call my escatalogy dark? I escape the tribulation and enjoy the 1,000 year reign. Your escatology places christians into the wrath and judgement of God. That's dark.

Well that is pretty dark isn't it? I get to escape all suffering and tribulation. And I get to enjoy the 1000 year reign. But how are you going to enjoy it? Are you a Jew? Personally, I am enjoying his reign right now. I bow to my King.
But Covenant theology does not teach that Christians are subject to God's wrath. When the Bible speaks of his wrath or the day of his wrath it is speaking of the final judgement. It is not speaking God Christian's not suffering. You go looking at the signs of the times to know how close he is
but you can't recognize that this age is an age of trial and triubulation. You are in it and don't even know it. How sad and dark is that?

 

[CrowCross]

Then go back and take your time and re-read it and re-read t as many times as it takes to correctly understand it becase to other posters have read it and commended it.

Why? You are like the Jews in the days of Jesus...just like they missed what Isaiah 53 was about....you and your orthodox escatological beliefs can't tell the times of the season.

Yes, but we are discussing ONLY Revelation 3:10

Yup, Rev 3:10 mentions wrath for the entire world..all of earth...the entire planet. Your orthodox belief in the end time message doesn't want to address that.

The good news....believers...Christ bride... escape the wrath.

 

[CrowCross]

It is Jesus who defined it not me. Read the scriptures

I have ...many times.

You still haven't presented one verse that tells us there will not be a pre-trib rapture. Not one.

This age is closing...quickly. The Lord Jesus is coming!

 

[Arial]

I have ...many times.

You still haven't presented one verse that tells us there will not be a pre-trib rapture. Not one.

This age is closing...quickly. The Lord Jesus is coming!

A person would be hard pressed indeed to find a verse in the Bible that states there won't be something that there won't be. Why wouldit speak of a pre-trib rapture if there is no such thing?

You are the one that says there will be, and yet have not offered even one verse that says there will be. You do present verses that you SAY show there will be a pre-trib rapture, but what you or anyone else SAYS something means is not what counts. It only gives an interpretation----what it means to THEM. The Bible does not build a doctrine on isolated verses. It is the word of God. All of it. Therefore the entire book must be considered when arriving at a doctrinal position and meaning of a verse.

 

[Josheb]

A person would be hard pressed indeed to find a verse in the Bible that states there won't be something that there won't be. Why wouldit speak of a pre-trib rapture if there is no such thing?

Bingo!

I cannot find any mention of Satan's resurrection not happening . It must be something that will happen in the future .
I cannot find any mention of the pre-tribulation rapture not happening, so it must be something that will happen in the future.
I cannot find any mention of Mars-ruling six-legged, three-headed, purple polka-dotted tigopotamus but it'll happen in the future.

 

[CrowCross]

Bingo!

I cannot find any mention of Satan's resurrection not happening . It must be something that will happen in the future .
I cannot find any mention of the pre-tribulation rapture not happening, so it must be something that will happen in the future.
I cannot find any mention of Mars-ruling six-legged, three-headed, purple polka-dotted tigopotamus but it'll happen in the future.

Funny....I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened....nor the bible.

I've presented verse after verse supporting the pre-trib rapture......and no one has presented a verse dismissing it.

 

[Arial]

Funny....I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened....nor the bible.

Then you have not been looking hard enough or you reinterpret everything to be saying what you prefer it to be saying.

I've presented verse after verse supporting the pre-trib rapture......and no one has presented a verse dismissing it.

So the criteria according to you is presenting a verse to prove something and someone else presenting a verse to disprove it? True, that is all you ever do, but that is sloppy and ineffective and a wrong way to go about supporting or disproving a point.

WHat has been done by those who oppose your view is take the verses you use, put them in their proper context, bring in other places in Scripture that speak of the same thing, using the fullness of Scripture on a subject in their own minds always aware of it, since space will not allow for a continuous exegesis of the entire Bible; demonstrate thoroughly how these things are done and that you are not doing it; and then presenting a conclusion that is far different from yours. You start, always, with your own conclusion; stay only with your own conclusion taking nothing else into consideration, not even what has been said to you; and go find a verse completely out of context, unrelated to any form of hermeneutic let alone biblical hermeneutics which begins with "Scripture interprets Scripture". The "Bible is it own interpreter"; do none of the work necessary to even verify your own conclusion: and then state it as fact. And cap it off with "no one has presented a verse dismissing it".

No one attempting to communicate here is dismissing anything, nor to they intend to. All the dismissing is on your side.

So get with the program and do something besides argue personally against persons.

 

[CrowCross]

Then you have not been looking hard enough or you reinterpret everything to be saying what you prefer it to be saying.

Really? How so? When has Rev 8 happened?

So the criteria according to you is presenting a verse to prove something and someone else presenting a verse to disprove it? True, that is all you ever do, but that is sloppy and ineffective and a wrong way to go about supporting or disproving a point.

It's what the Bereans did. But then again you throw ad-homs at me and call me sloppy, ineffective and wrong.

WHat has been done by those who oppose your view is take the verses you use, put them in their proper context, bring in other places in Scripture that speak of the same thing, using the fullness of Scripture on a subject in their own minds always aware of it, since space will not allow for a continuous exegesis of the entire Bible; demonstrate thoroughly how these things are done and that you are not doing it; and then presenting a conclusion that is far different from yours. You start, always, with your own conclusion; stay only with your own conclusion taking nothing else into consideration, not even what has been said to you; and go find a verse completely out of context, unrelated to any form of hermeneutic let alone biblical hermeneutics which begins with "Scripture interprets Scripture". The "Bible is it own interpreter"; do none of the work necessary to even verify your own conclusion: and then state it as fact. And cap it off with "no one has presented a verse dismissing it".

I somewhat disagree...I start with my conclusion....often scripture is discerned and a conclusion is derived. The pre-trib rapture is an example.
So, when you ask about the pre-trib rapture I explain the scripture behind the pre-trib rapture...In other words I works from the conclusion and present the scripture that draws on to the conclusion.

No one attempting to communicate here is dismissing anything, nor to they intend to. All the dismissing is on your side.

So get with the program and do something besides argue personally against persons.

It was you who said....But that is sloppy and ineffective and a wrong way to go about supporting or disproving a point.....which points out your hypocritical method when you tell me to get with the program.

 

[Arial]

It's what the Bereans did. But then again you throw ad-homs at me and call me sloppy, ineffective and wrong.

ad hominem /hŏm′ə-nĕm″, -nəm/

adjective​

1. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
   "Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives."
2. Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.

BTW the part in bold is an ad hominem itself. That is your MO lately. I did not call you sloppy, ineffective and wrong. That was directed at your work in refuting/supporting. But the Bereans searched the scripture to see if what the apostles were saying was true. Not a verse here and there and the scriptures they searched was the OT.

I somewhat disagree...I start with my conclusion....often scripture is discerned and a conclusion is derived. The pre-trib rapture is an example.
So, when you ask about the pre-trib rapture I explain the scripture behind the pre-trib rapture...In other words I works from the conclusion and present the scripture that draws on to the conclusion.

You give (not explain) a verse---sometimes verses, one from here another from over there---that in your mind is stating the idea of a pre-trib rapture. A pre-trib rapture is a conclusion. You have been told or read that those passages are talking about a pre-trib rapture and instead of examining the Scriptures and handling them correctly (scripture interprets scripture, all scripture is connected, and ultimately to Christ and the eternal Covenant of Redemption)to see if what you are being told is true, you just accept it. Sounds right, right? Must be true. Make no mistake, I was in that same boat for 23 years. I am not saying this in a vacuum. As I have said before, in order for a quoted scripture to support your view of a pre-trib rapture to our satisfaction (and should for anyone's satisfaction) you first have to establish that there is a pre-trib rapture for that verse to be talking about. Not just your declaration or opinion.

Now, that is a lot of hard work but a lot of it has been done for you in the posts members have been posting to you. It is not on us, that you don't even bother to consider them enough to address their content.

It was you who said....But that is sloppy and ineffective and a wrong way to go about supporting or disproving a point.....which points out your hypocritical method when you tell me to get with the program.

It is sloppy and ineffective and wrong. There is nothing hypocritical or out of line about pointing that out. It was said,along with what would not be sloppy and ineffective and wrong for the purpose of making this a profitable and pleasant discussion. As guidance on how to do that. Hopefully you will take that into consideration in your future responses to people.

 

[CrowCross]

that in your mind is stating the idea of a pre-trib rapture. A pre-trib rapture is a conclusion

I have started at the conclusion of many, many theologians that have preceded me and worked backwards and like them have pieced together and shown the scripture that tells of a pre-trib rapture was correct. You called it sloppy. You attacked me in an ad hominem way.

 

[Arial]

I have started at the conclusion of many, many theologians that have preceded me and worked backwards and like them have pieced together and shown the scripture that tells of a pre-trib rapture was correct. You called it sloppy. You attacked me in an ad hominem way.

It is sloppy. Starting with a conclusion that has not been verified (and numbers of theologians can all be wrong so---), one tends to use the same verifications they use and it starts with the foregone conclusion of a pre-trib rapture. Then the scriptures that, if isolated from all other context, are looked for.

Start with what the Bible is. It is God revealing himself and his work in our history of fulfilling the eternal Covenant of Redemption. That right there makes the correct interpretive framework covenant, not dispensation. This seven year tribulation and pre-trib rapture structures the Bible wrong as its starting premise. It is primarily national Israel centered and not Christ centered, and it interprets the OT as though the covenant with Israel was the main character in the story of redemption, instead of Christ. It breaks the people of God into two peoples and the kingdom of God into two kingdoms. Israel first, and the Church second. Can you at least see that, even if you agree with the dispensational position? That would be a starting point.

 

[Josheb]

Funny....I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened....nor the bible.

That's too bad because scripture itself explicitly states much of it has happened and other parts of scripture tell us indirectly it has happened.


Rev. 1:19 explicitly states that John is to write down things he has (already seen). Those would be events that have already occurrs.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

Then I cannot help you because verse 19 unequivocally reports events Joh wrote down were events he'd seen. It sounds to me like the first clause of verse 19 is being denied: There isn't anything in Revelation the Bible shows has happened when the verse clearly states otherwise.

Rev, 1:19 also explicitly states John is to write down what is, meaning he is to write down circumstances and events existing and occurring at the time of his writing Revelation.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

Well, again, verse 19 clearly states some of the events were taking place at the time John was writing the book. It sounds to me like both the first and the second clause of verse 19 are being denied: There isn't anything in Revelation the Bible shows has happened when the verse clearly states otherwise.

Revelation 12:1-6
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation 12:1-6 tells the reader a woman will give birth to a child who will rule all the nations with a rod of iron and the child will be caught up to God and His throne. The gospels of Matthew and Luke tell us of the birth of Jesus, who the gospels and the epistolary also tell us is the ruler of all things. If that woman described in Revelation 12 is Mary, the mother of Jesus then her existence has alll already come and gone. If those verses are not talking about Mary, then there will be some other woman giving birth to some other son who will be ruler of all the nations instead of Jesus. Jesus would then not be King of kings or Lord of lords. If Jesus is not the one ruling all the nations, then his own claim to have been given all power and authority and Paul's claim his rule is far above all other rules is dubious at best and an outright lie at worst.

Is Revelation 12 talking about the birth of Jesus, or not? Please do not avoid the question. Please do not beat around the bush, delay answering, change the subject, bring up some other verse or any other obfuscation. Please just answer the question asked: Are the opening verse of Revelation about the birth of Jesus mentioned in Matthew's and Luke's gospels or not?

Revelation 12:7-12
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

Has salvation come?

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

1 Peter 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
​

Three different books of the Bible clearly state salvation has come. What the loud voice in heaven said would appear to have already occurred by the time John heard those words in his vision.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

The Bible states salvation has come. Unless you think Revelation 12: 's salvation is referencing some other kind of salvation (in which case the onus is on you to explain and then prove that case) verse' 10's salvation is a thing of the past and its coming continues on to this day.

Has the power and kingdom of God come?

Luke 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you and, for that reason, the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Romans 1:1-4
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord.....

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

2 Corinthians 13:4
For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God.

2 Timothy 1:7-8
For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
​

That is just a sampling of verses in the New Testament that speak of God's power having come to earth. At least five books of the Bible tell us the loud voice's proclamation salvation, and the power of God have come is something in Revelation that has already occurred.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

Scripture clearly reports the power of God has come and describes it in diverse ways.

Has the authority of Christ come?

Matthew 9:6
"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

John 5:25-27
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in himself; and He gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man."

John 17:1-2
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given him, he may give eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:20-25
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Ephesians 1:18-23
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.​

So, once again there are many books of the Bible that tell the reader the authority of God has, in fact, already come and, therefore, the loud voice's declaration in Rev. 12 has already happened.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

It is there for you to find if and when you look.

See also Post #39. Post hoc arguments are fallacious (for reasons already posted).

I've presented verse after verse supporting the pre-trib rapture......and no one has presented a verse dismissing it.

No, you have not. What you've done is post many interpretations supporting a pre-trib. rapture. The verses themselves do not actually state, "There will be a pre-tribulational future in the future of people living in the 21st century." Nothing even remotely close to that has been posted and if you actually had a verse that objectively stated a pre-tribulation rapture was coming in our future this thread would be two posts long. You post the verse and then everyone says, "Amen!"


Dispensational Premillennialism is not scripture. When you post DPism, you're not posting scripture. When you assert a DP interpretation of a verse you are, again, not posting scripture; you're posting a DP apologetic. There are no verses in the Bible supporting a pre-trib rapture and no one until the 19th century ever thought that was the case. You've been shown the chart showing DPism is the only eschatology who teaches a separated rapture. No one else in Christendom holds that belief. Your eschatology is both the normative and statistical outlier and we now know one of the reasons you subscribe to that point of view is because you can't find anything in the Bible that has showed Revelation has happened when Revelation and the whole of the New Testament provide many accounts of what John had seen and what was at the time he wrote that book.

 

[CrowCross]

That's too bad because scripture itself explicitly states much of it has happened and other parts of scripture tell us indirectly it has happened.


Rev. 1:19 explicitly states that John is to write down things he has (already seen). Those would be events that have already occurrs.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

Then I cannot help you because verse 19 unequivocally reports events Joh wrote down were events he'd seen. It sounds to me like the first clause of verse 19 is being denied: There isn't anything in Revelation the Bible shows has happened when the verse clearly states otherwise.

Rev, 1:19 also explicitly states John is to write down what is, meaning he is to write down circumstances and events existing and occurring at the time of his writing Revelation.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

Well, again, verse 19 clearly states some of the events were taking place at the time John was writing the book. It sounds to me like both the first and the second clause of verse 19 are being denied: There isn't anything in Revelation the Bible shows has happened when the verse clearly states otherwise.

Revelation 12:1-6
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation 12:1-6 tells the reader a woman will give birth to a child who will rule all the nations with a rod of iron and the child will be caught up to God and His throne. The gospels of Matthew and Luke tell us of the birth of Jesus, who the gospels and the epistolary also tell us is the ruler of all things. If that woman described in Revelation 12 is Mary, the mother of Jesus then her existence has alll already come and gone. If those verses are not talking about Mary, then there will be some other woman giving birth to some other son who will be ruler of all the nations instead of Jesus. Jesus would then not be King of kings or Lord of lords. If Jesus is not the one ruling all the nations, then his own claim to have been given all power and authority and Paul's claim his rule is far above all other rules is dubious at best and an outright lie at worst.

Is Revelation 12 talking about the birth of Jesus, or not? Please do not avoid the question. Please do not beat around the bush, delay answering, change the subject, bring up some other verse or any other obfuscation. Please just answer the question asked: Are the opening verse of Revelation about the birth of Jesus mentioned in Matthew's and Luke's gospels or not?

Revelation 12:7-12
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

Has salvation come?

Luke 19:9​

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.​

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Romans 11:11​

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.​

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1 Peter 1:3-9 ​

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.​

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Three different books of the Bible clearly state salvation has come. What the loud voice in heaven said would appear to have already occurred by the time John heard those words in his vision.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

The Bible states salvation has come. Unless you think Revelation 12: 's salvation is referencing some other kind of salvation (in which case the onus is on you to explain and then prove that case) verse' 10's salvation is a thing of the past and its coming continues on to this day.

Has the power and kingdom of God come?

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Luke 1:35 ​

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you and, for that reason, the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.​

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Romans 1:1-4 ​

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord.....​

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Romans 1:16 ​

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.​

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1 Corinthians 1:18 ​

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.​

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1 Corinthians 1:18 ​

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.​

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1 Corinthians 2:3-5 ​

I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.​

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2 Corinthians 13:4 ​

For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God.​

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2 Timothy 1:7-8 ​

For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,​

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That is just a sampling of verses in the New Testament that speak of God's power having come to earth. At least five books of the Bible tell us the loud voice's proclamation salvation, and the power of God have come is something in Revelation that has already occurred.

"I can't find anything in history that has showed Revelation has happened.... nor the Bible."​

Scripture clearly reports the power of God has come and describes it in diverse ways.

Has the authority of Christ come?

Matthew 9:6 ​

"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."​

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Matthew 28:18​

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ​

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John 5:25-27 ​

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in himself; and He gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man."​

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John 17:1-2 ​

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given him, he may give eternal life.​

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1 Corinthians 15:20-25 ​

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.​

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Ephesians 1:18-23 ​

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.​

So, once again there are many books of the Bible that tell the reader the authority of God has, in fact, already come and, therefore, the loud voice's declaration in Rev. 12 has already happened.

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All you have done is present your "orthodox" view. Nothing new. I'll stick with the pre-trib rapture mentioned all through scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

Rev. 1:19 explicitly states that John is to write down things he has (already seen). Those would be events that have already occurrs.

19Therefore write down the things you have seen, the things that are, and the things that will happen after this.

The 4 horsemen have not happened.....they are.... things that will happen.
Revelation 8 has not happened....they are...things that will happen.

That's jus 2 of many things that have not happened.

 

[Arial]

All you have done is present your "orthodox" view. Nothing new. I'll stick with the pre-trib rapture mentioned all through scripture.

If it is mentioned all through the Bible, show me three places it is mentioned without using 1Thess 4; 1 Cor 15; Matt 24; Rev 3; Zech 14 or any other verse you have used that I may have forgotten.

All of the above have been demonstrated to not be speaking of a pre-trib rapture so we don't need to go over them again.

 

[CrowCross]

If it is mentioned all through the Bible, show me three places it is mentioned without using 1Thess 4; 1 Cor 15; Matt 24; Rev 3; Zech 14 or any other verse you have used that I may have forgotten.

All of the above have been demonstrated to not be speaking of a pre-trib rapture so we don't need to go over them again.

You forgot John 14:2-3. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

Luke 21: 36So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

2 Thes 2:1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers,

As you know just like the concept of the trinity there is no direct verse that talks about it. It is derived from a compilation of biblical truths. The pre-trib rapture is also a compilation of verses. They have been explained to you and rejected by you. All the while you have not presented a line of theological thought presenting your view.

Support verses such as the following exist which can be added to the verses that speak of the pre-trib rapture

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Luke 21:34But watch yourselves, or your hearts will be weighed down by dissipation, drunkenness, and the worries of life—and that day will spring upon you suddenly like a snare. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

1 Thes 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I showed you a bunch of verses that support a pre-trib rapture.....and I didn't even talk about the white horse or Noah and Lot.

SHOW ME A SERIES OF VERSES THAT CLEARLY DENIES A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.....and supports your view.

 

[Arial]

You forgot John 14:2-3. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

It may not have been on my mind when I posted my request for where a pre-trib rapture is stated "All through scripture" but I specifically said to do so without using the ones I listed or any that I had forgotten. When a person simply skims a post looking for what they can attack and how they can attack it, they miss a great deal.

You forgot John 14:2-3. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

How is this stating a pre-trib rapture if the context shows that Jesus is speaking to the twelve about his departure to comfort them? None of them were raptured out of the world but all or most died at the hands of persecutors. So if it was speaking of their pre-trib rapture, Jesus lied to them.

Luke 21: 36So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

How is this implying a pre-trib rapture if Jesus is talking to the disciples and answering their questions? Verses 5-24. And in 32 he applies it to that generation. The judgement that came upon Jerusalem in 70 a.d. forever ending Jerusalem as his dwelling place and the Old Covenant passed away, as Christ has become the mediator of the New Covenant, fulfilling every promise of the old. So the strength to escape is not to escape the world in a pre-trib rapture, but for the disciples to have the strength to escape the destruction that would come on Jerusalem ---which they did as far as we know, or as far as I know without looking it up.

2 Thes 2:1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers,

Since it is common knowledge among Christians that according to his word, all believers will be gathered to Christ when he returns, how specifically is this speaking of a pre-trib rapture? The rest of that sentence goes like this "we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be form us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." And then Paul speaks of things that will happen before his return. So he is dealing with a specific issue that had invaded that congregation. Not an escape from something. And please don't give for the thousandth time your rendition of those events Paul mentions, unless this time you are going to actually listen to and address properly, what someone counters with.

As you know just like the concept of the trinity there is no direct verse that talks about it. It is derived from a compilation of biblical truths. The pre-trib rapture is also a compilation of verses. They have been explained to you and rejected by you. All the while you have not presented a line of theological thought presenting your view.

One of the theological and also logical lines of thought I presented dealt with this very thing. Twice it was presented by me. Relating the revealing of a Trinity but not using the word Trinity, is not at all the same thing as arriving at a pre-trib rapture despite the fact that it is never directly called a pre-trib rapture. The first (Trinity) is a revealing by God to a regenerated person the "makeup" of his manner of being. Triune. It is done by the truths expressed and actions expressed by the use of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The word Trinity is not in the Bible because it is the human term used to express the being of God.

A pre-trib rapture on the other hand would be a historic event that could be understood fully by the human mind, even a non-Christian, even though they would not believe it. It does not need to be spiritually discerned or understood. It would need to be directly stated. What this pre-trib idea has actually done, is spiritualized plain and literal words, applying them to an interpretation that is faulty because when it first began to read of Israel way back in the OT that failed to recognize that it is first a covenant people of God, and second a geographic piece of land. So Israel and the church are never seen as one people of God but two separate entities and dispensations becomes the way God forms relationship and deals with his people, rather than the biblical way of covenant. I expect you did not understand a word I said.

Support verses such as the following exist which can be added to the verses that speak of the pre-trib rapture

None of those verses speaks of a pre-trib rapture. They can't unless it can be established that there is a seven year tribulation using correct interpretive means and not just guessing.

 

[CrowCross]

EDIIt may not have been on my mind when I posted my request for where a pre-trib rapture is stated "All through scripture" but I specifically said to do so without using the ones I listed or any that I had forgotten. When a person simply skims a post looking for what they can attack and how they can attack it, they miss a great deal.

That would be like me asking you to prove that the trinity is biblical....but you can't use this list of verses that speak of the Godhead.

How is this stating a pre-trib rapture if the context shows that Jesus is speaking to the twelve about his departure to comfort them? None of them were raptured out of the world but all or most died at the hands of persecutors. So it was speaking of their pre-trib rapture, Jesus lied to them.

Soooooooooo, now you switch to the....if you believe in the pre-trib rapture you make Jesus a liar defense.....Seriously? Is that where you're going? I'm making Jesus into a liar... EDIT

How is this implying a pre-trib rapture if Jesus is talking to the disciples and answering their questions? Verses 5-24. And in 32 he applies it to that generation. The judgement that came upon Jerusalem in 70 a.d. forever ending Jerusalem as his dwelling place and the Old Covenant passed away, as Christ has become the mediator of the New Covenant, fulfilling every promise of the old. So the strength to escape is not to escape the world in a pre-trib rapture, but for the disciples to have the strength to escape the destruction that would come on Jerusalem ---which they did as far as we know, or as far as I know without looking it up.

One has to ask....did God dwell in the second temple like He dwelled in the first? But, that's a seperate thread.

Anyway...We know "this Generation" spoken about in the bible isn't about those who lived at the time prior to the destruction of the Jerusalem because Jesus didn't return then. Perhaps there was some sort of pre-fulfillment or type...but Jesus didn't return in 70 AD. This obviously means "this Generation" means a future generation....and it is THIS generation that will see Christ return.

One of the theological and also logical lines of thought I presented dealt with this very thing. Twice it was presented by me. Relating the revealing of a Trinity but not using the word Trinity, is not at all the same thing as arriving at a pre-trib rapture despite the fact that it is never directly called a pre-trib rapture. The first (Trinity) is a revealing by God to a regenerated person the "makeup" of his manner of being. Triune. It is done by the truths expressed and actions expressed by the use of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The word Trinity is not in the Bible because it is the human term used to express the being of God.

A pre-trib rapture on the other hand would be a historic event that could be understood fully by the human mind, even a non-Christian, even though they would not believe it. It does not need to be spiritually discerned or understood. It would need to be directly stated. What this pre-trib idea has actually done, is spiritualized plain and literal words, applying them to an interpretation that is faulty because when it first began to read of Israel way back in the OT that failed to recognize that it is first a covenant people of God, and second a geographic piece of land. So Israel and the church are never seen as one people of God but two separate entities and dispensations becomes the way God forms relationship and deals with his people, rather than the biblical way of covenant. I expect you did not understand a word I said.

Apparently you don't get the point.....there are several theological themes in the bible that have been pieced together by what has been revealed in scripture. You do understand that happens? Yes?

None of those verses speaks of a pre-trib rapture. They can't unless it can be established that there is a seven year tribulation using correct interpretive means and not just guessing.

The 7 year tribulation can be seen in the bible. The clock was stopped after Jesus was cut off after the decree to build the temple was given.
Then your God allowed a time of grace in which we are still in. Then the trumpet of God is blown...