The pope of Rome the antichrist?

[donadams]

So, what went wrong?

Nothing
Matt 16:17-19

“Shall not prevail”!!!

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[donadams]

Men do not appoint apostles; in fact, they don't appoint pastors, teachers or evangelists either. The only offices appointed by the assemblies are elders and deacons.

That a fundamentalist Protestant practice or “tradition”

The apostles have the same authority as Christ
Jn 20:21-23

Mathias appointed by the apostles to replace Judas acts 1:15-26

Thanks

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!

They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!

Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of jurisdictional authority! Open and shut And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.


The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

 

[CrowCross]

Nothing
Matt 16:17-19

“Shall not prevail”!!!

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Are you saying the Catholic religion has prevented the gates of hell from prevailing against the church?

 

[Arch Stanton]

If I aint mistaken scripture seems to point in that direction.

Consider a few things. The seat of his residence will be in Rome, which is built upon seven hills.
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, Rev 17:1. This verse refers to the antichrist, and in verse 9, his seat is identified. This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; Rev 17:9.

Rome has 7 Hills - Aventine Hill, Caelian Hill, Capitoline Hill, Esquiline Hill, Palatine Hill, Quirinal Hill, and Viminal Hill.

Vatican Hill sits across the Tiber River from ancient Rome.

 

[TB2]

"The pope of Rome the antichrist?"​

Not according to Gregory Beale

 

[Mikeuk]

I know that this is a populist post reformation attack on catholicism , and it has continued unabated ever since
It even made confessions eg the Lutheran book of concord which says something about questionable interest in truth.
With creative imagination and lack of restraint by authority or scripture it is possible to make revelations mean what you will.

But scripture in numerous places chops this wishful (arguably hateful ) thinking off at the root
2 John 7
“ I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh,have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.“
Defining phrase :” do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh“

or 1 john 4 2-3
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Love him. Hate him. Despise hIm, or think he has gone of the rails….
You still cannot pretend 2 John 7 or 1 j 4:2 applies to the pope!

And the post apostolic fathers agree from the first taught by disciples , such as polycarp reinforce this
polycarp said…
“Everyone who does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an antichrist“

So tradition says the same and also reinforces the pope , as what Catholics hold him To be.

Sadly the world loves a good conspiracy theory , often at the expense of the pope!

The arguments earlier in the thread points as well at one of the principle reasons protestants disagree with each other, and disagree with Catholics so much.

Which is proof texting . However much a verse in revelations May or May not be made to support an argument about the pope , the argument has to match all verses not just the proof texts used.
The pope is not consistent with the texts in John. So rule him out.

 

[Illuminator]

Interesting fact. As if he really had a say in these things.. The connection between Peter and the bishop of Rome (the pope) didn't become fully explicit until Leo the Great came on the scene in the mid-fifth century 440-461. Pope Leo insisted (as Christ's Victor) that Peter continued to speak to the whole church through the bishops of Rome.

That's because Peter actually does continue to speak to the whole church. Not by interviews with reporters, not by homilies or opinions, not by errant behavior, but by formal teaching.

Was Leo the Great the First Pope?

The term ‘pope’ is from the Greek word ‘pappas’ which means ‘Father.’ In the first three centuries it was used of any bishop, and eventually the term was used for the Bishop of Alexandria, and finally by the sixth century it was used exclusively for the Bishop of Rome. Therefore it is an open question who was the first ‘pope’ as such.

The critics of the Catholic Church aren’t really worried about when the term ‘pope’ was first used. What they mean when they say that Leo the Great (440-461) was the first pope is that this is when the papacy began to assume worldly power. This is, therefore, simply a problem in definition of terms. By ‘pope’ the Evangelical means what I thought of as ‘pope’ after my Evangelical childhood. By ‘pope’ they mean ‘corrupt earthly ruler’. In that respect Leo the Great might be termed the ‘first pope’ because he was the one, (in the face of the disintegrating Roman Empire) who stepped up and got involved in temporal power without apology.

However, seeing the pope as merely a temporal ruler and disapproving is to be too simplistic. Catholics understand the pope’s power to be spiritual. While certain popes did assume temporal power, they often did so reluctantly, and did not always wield that power in a corrupt way. Whether popes should have assumed worldly wealth and power is arguable, but at the heart of their ministry, like the Lord they served, they should have known that their kingdom was not of this world. Their rule was to be hierarchical and monarchical in the sense that they were serving the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It was not first and foremost to be hierarchical and monarchical in the worldly sense.

The Protestant idea that the papacy was a fifth century invention relies on a false understanding of the papacy itself. After the establishment of the church at Constantine’s conversion the church hierarchy did indeed become more influential in the kingdoms of this world, but that is not the essence of the papacy. The essence of the papacy lies in Jesus’ ordination of Peter as his royal steward, and his commission to assume the role of Good Shepherd in Christ’s absence. The idea, therefore, that Leo the Great was the first ‘pope’ is a red herring based on a misunderstanding of the pope’s true role.

The Early Papacy - 3 - Fr. Dwight Longenecker

As we have seen, the idea of a monarchical papacy was there from the beginning in Jesus’ identity as the Great scion of David the King with Peter as his

www.patheos.com

 

[Illuminator]

Consider the antichrist would live in great luster and pomp. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. Rev 17:4.


Consider this next passage while considering the pope and his followers having purple for his and his Cardinals color.

12 cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble,

16
“Alas, alas, for the great city
that was clothed in fine linen,
in purple and scarlet,
adorned with gold,
with jewels, and with pearls!
Rev 18.

Now in Technicolor

For his fourth argument, Hunt states, “She [the whore] is clothed in ‘purple and scarlet’ (v. 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy.” He cites the Catholic Encyclopedia to show that bishops wear purple and cardinals wear scarlet (red). This line of reasoning has problems.

Rather than assigning the whore’s colors their symbolic meaning (purple for royalty, red for the blood of martyrs), Hunt is suddenly, joltingly literal in his interpretation. He caught on well enough that the woman symbolizes a city and that the fornication symbolizes something other than a sexual act, but now he wants to assign colors a purely literal fulfillment in the clothing of Catholic ecclesiastics.

Besides, purple and red are not the dominant colors of clerical clothing. Black and white are. Consider the average priest’s “clericals” (black suit with white Roman collar); priests’ clerical garb is never purple or red, and for only a short time during the liturgical year do they wear chasubles with purple or red. But every priest wears a white alb at Mass. Even bishops and cardinals usually wear black (look at the bishop or cardinal who heads your diocese). And the pope, of course, always wears white.

The purple and scarlet of the whore are contrasts to the white worn by the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8). This makes two more problems for Hunt: (and Carbon's simplistic Bible twisting) The clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation (“the righteous acts of the saints” 19:8) implying that the clothing of the whore should also be given a symbolic meaning, and the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) suggests that the whore may be old, apostate Jerusalem–a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25-26).

Another problem for Hunt (and Carbon) is that he ignores the liturgical meaning of the colors purple and red. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs–both of these things being noble, whereas in Revelation these colors reveal how ignoble the whore is.

It is entirely appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet because these have been liturgical colors ever since ancient Israel. In fact, together with blue and white, they were the dominant colors of the Israelite liturgy. God commanded that the curtains which formed the walls of the Tabernacle be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 25:4, 26:1, 31, 36, 27:16, 36:8, 35, 37, 38:18, 39:34). He commanded the tabernacle to have a ceiling made of ram skins dyed red (Ex. 26:14, 36:19, 39:34). He commanded that when they were being moved the table of the bread of the presence be covered with a scarlet cloth (Num. 4:8) and the bronze altar with a purple cloth (Num. 4:13). He commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49-52, Num. 19:6). He commanded that the vestments for priests be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4-8, 15, 33, 39:1-8, 24, 29). If there was nothing sinister about the Israelites using these God-commanded colors then, there is nothing sinister about the Catholic clergy using them now.

At the risk of making the same point too often, it should be noted that the colors purple and scarlet, taken literally or symbolically, may stand for pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem. Both were capital royal) cities, and both shed the blood of Christian martyrs.
source
You acknowledge there were Christian martyrs, but can't identify any of them by name in the 2nd and 3rd century. Just generalizations. The first 37+ popes were killed by pagan Romans (that takes us the the end of the 2nd century), a historical fact ignored by every reformist site on the internet.

 

[Illuminator]

Let's go on....

According to verses 10 and 11, he (the antichrist) will succeed the emperor in this territory. The seven heads refer to the 7 manners of government in Rome. During John's time, five forms of government had already run their course. The sixth, consisting of the rule of the emperors, was in place at the time, after which the seventh would follow. And who succeded the emperors in Rome? The pope of course.

they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. Revelation 17:10-11

The Catholic Roman Empire Church is a myth, invented by Alexander Hislop, E.G. White, Charles Taze Russell and legions of fundamentalists who are forced to re-write history so it fits their narrative. You offer no scholarly support for your slanderous assertions, just regurgitations of false histories. Try documenting from reliable historians, Protestant or secular, who wrote recently and not influenced by post-enlightenment era polemics. No pope succeeded any emperor, a ridiculous and false claim.

 

[Illuminator]

Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. Dave Hunt, in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine arguments to try to prove this. His claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, (and Carbon) and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.

Is the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon?

Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. We explain why their arguments don't hold up to scrutiny.

www.catholic.com

 

[TB2]

Yeah, Hislop's Two Babylon's propagated the myth (among other things). The pope = antichrist is also anachronistic. Have to interpret Revelation in historical context of Emperor Domitian and the Imperial Cult of the late first century; several hundred years before RCC existed

 

[Mr GLee]

Our national idolatry “lady Liberty” in New York harbor!

The French and American Revolutions are the same

Same motto: liberty
Same colors: red white and blue
Same godless paganism

Yes lady liberty the mother of us all. The chaste virgin bride that puts no other gods. . . the strange women. before her husband Christ.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Christian. . . literally residents of the city of Christ prepared for the wife in honor of the husband the founder of the city A more befitting name to name the bride of all nations

 

[ChristB4us]

Thing is, considering the Church is the temple of God....I don't see how the anti-Christ will sit in the christians who are the temple.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

If saved believers believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign, then they are opening themselves up to suffer a thief to break through as God will permit that strong delusion to occur for believing that lie.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first.....

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

This was happening even in Paul's days as he addressed those that become disorderly ...... like we have seen in the holy laughter movement and being drunk in the spirit, and slain in the spirit, and so forth where confusion reigns which God is not the author of.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So those that have gone astray are at risk of being left behind and thus damned as vessels unto dishonor in his House unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes.

Matthew 12:38-40 & Revelation 2:18-25

This is how I see the spirit of the antichrist being in Christians using tongues for private use to prevent them from praying normally.

1 Corinthians 12:7-14,19-21;1 John 4:1-6

This is why tongues are not for private use and it is just gibberish nonsense because it is not of Him for why it is not coming with interpretation, and thus of the world's pagan supernatural tongue as they speak as the world speaks by that spirit of the antichrist.

Anyway, just sharing how there are other antichrists and how the spirit of the antichrists can be in believers that err.

 

[Musician]

I recently read a book that claims the AC will come out of the Vatican.

 

[EarlyActs]

If I aint mistaken scripture seems to point in that direction.

Consider a few things. The seat of his residence will be in Rome, which is built upon seven hills.
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, Rev 17:1. This verse refers to the antichrist, and in verse 9, his seat is identified. This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; Rev 17:9.

Do you know the history of this idea?

 

[Carbon]

Do you know the history of this idea?

I believe this belief began around the 1500’s,1600’s. As far as the thought and teaching is concerned.

 

[EarlyActs]

I believe this belief began around the 1500’s,1600’s. As far as the thought and teaching is concerned.

Yes, and it was often one of the few things the Reformation leaders could agree on.

 

[CrowCross]

I recently read a book that claims the AC will come out of the Vatican.

My current pick is the dude from Saudi Arabia working on the peace deal....Mohammed bin Salman

 

[prism]

I believe this thread is referring to the False Prophet, not the A.C.. The A.C. is a political figure (not a religious figure) that the F.P. points to for others to worship.

 

[3 Resurrections]

"The pope of Rome the antichrist?"​

Not according to Gregory Beale

Not according to scripture either.

Yes, and it was often one of the few things the Reformation leaders could agree on.

And it is one of the things that regrettably all of them were mistaken in believing.