THE MASSIVE GRAND CANYON—IT'S GENESES

[Buff Scott Jr.]

The Massive Grand Canyon
[It’s Geneses]​

The common view is that the Canyon was cut out by the Colorado River over a period of millions of years. This evolutionary view is widely taught, and our children are being subjected to it in school at a young age. It is my conception the evolutionary view is full of loopholes and inconsistencies.

Let’s approach this controversy issue with a little bit of common intelligence. The Nile River in Egypt is as old as the Colorado River, perhaps even older. If age and continual flow are the key factors, why hasn’t the Nile River cut out a canyon as awesome, or at least similar to, the Grand Canyon? Then there’s the Mississippi, the Ohio, the Rio Grande, and many other old waterways. Why haven’t they hewed out canyons?

The answer, I think, is obvious. Time and continual flow have little if anything to do with canyons whose walls are sheer rock, like the Grand Canyon. And we’ll even allow for a little erosion along the way. That still doesn’t cut it, however. For if erosion carved out the Grand Canyon, why hasn’t erosion carved out other old waterways, thus forming canyons of them? Again, age and continual flow have little to do with canyons whose walls are compacted rock.

THE CANYON’S INNER GORGES
If you have ever hiked the Canyon, you have observed, as I have, thousands of inner gorges—all solid rock. Many of them are as deep and as high as the Canyon itself. Now tell me: If the Colorado River is responsible for carving out the Grand Canyon, how did the inner gorges develop?

The great Colorado could not have shaped them. The raging billows of the river would have by-passed them. I can see the river’s back-flow pervading the gorges at one time, at least fractionally, but carving them out? No way! And I’m allowing for a small fraction of erosion in the process. Erosion, however, is not the author of the inner gorges, or of the Canyon itself. We must look for a greater source than erosion.

I have hiked the Grand Canyon a number of times, all the way to the floor and back. Of all the Canyon excursions, I have never once viewed any evidence that the Colorado River is responsible for carving out such an awesome gully. I have seen, however, layer upon layer of solidified sediment, one placed upon the other, caused by a violent revolution of the Earth, when a worldwide catastrophe in the form of a flood occurred, such as the one described in chapters 6-8 of the Book of Genesis.

“All the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights” [Genesis 7:11-12].

VERTICALLY INLAID SEDIMENTS
During the Summer of 2000, my two sons, a grandson, and I hiked the Grand Canyon from rim-to-rim. We hiked out on the 14-mile North Kaibab Trail. Usually, layer upon layer of solidified sediment form the Canyon’s sheer walls. On our trek this time, we saw unique rock formations we had not seen previously. Instead of horizontal layers of solidified sediment that are found throughout the Canyon, we observed many solidified sediments that are vertically inlaid.

We also noticed that the major rock formations had vertical sheer markings rather than diagonal, as one would expect from a flowing river. I wondered to myself: How do evolutionists and atheists explain this aside from a violent revolution of the Earth, “when all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of heaven were opened, and rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights” [Genesis 7:11-12].

A GEOLOGICAL FACT
Consequently, it seems the sedimentary layers of the Grand Canyon were deposited by the violent upheaval of the global flood in Noah’’s day. When we ponder the geological fact that in different parts of the world young strata, which should be at the top of rock layers, are at or toward the bottom (called “flip-flopped” or “reversed strata”), we are compelled to admit that at one time the earth experienced a spasmodic revolution or convulsion, such as the one described during the global flood of Noah’s day. But whatever happened, God was behind it. And it seemed to have come about quickly, not over a period of millions of years. On that note, I have no doubt.​

 

[EarlyActs]

Excellent! I do tours in Juneau AK of similar features, in fact, a couple of the city park signs have 90 % of my material!

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Thank you, brother, for your comments.

Buff

 

[Tambora]

Question from one unlearned in geology (so be kind to me ):

If the Grand Canyon was formed by the flood, why do we not have a lot more grand canyons?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Question from one unlearned in geology (so be kind to me ):

If the Grand Canyon was formed by the flood, why do we not have a lot more grand canyons?

Tambora:

There are many great canyons scatters over the Earth, but evidence shows they were not created by water flow, as my thread demonstrates. Look and evaluate it again.

Thanks​

 

[CrowCross]

Question from one unlearned in geology (so be kind to me ):

If the Grand Canyon was formed by the flood, why do we not have a lot more grand canyons?

We do. As one example go to google earth and follow the Hudson River out to sea....there you'll find a massive canyon.
The Kali Gandaki Gorge at the Himalayas in Nepal is larger than the Grand Canyon.
i've also read that Copper Canyon in Mexico is bigger than the Grand Canyon.

 

[CrowCross]

My take on it summed up....The Grand canyon cut out "picture" we see in text books and the like show the great unconformity at the bottom....when the fountains of the deep did their thing. Water flooded across what will become North America and deposited sediment rapidly. After the flood while the GC was still somewhat soft...plastic..a large lake bigger than the Great Lakes called the Grand Lake and Hopi Lake broke through it's earthen debris dam and rushed through the area carving out what is now know as the Grand Canyon.
It had to have been a massive amount of water as the Colorado river...considered as an under-fit river isn't big enough to have formed the Canyon.

 

[Tambora]

We do. As one example go to google earth and follow the Hudson River out to sea....there you'll find a massive canyon.
The Kali Gandaki Gorge at the Himalayas in Nepal is larger than the Grand Canyon.
i've also read that Copper Canyon in Mexico is bigger than the Grand Canyon.

I know there are other big canyons, but they are rather sparse.
It just seems like the whole earth would be cover to cover canyons since the whole earth experienced the same flood.
But again, I know very little about the field of geology.

I definitely believe scripture describes a world wide flood that covered every mountain top.
But I imagine it must have had a supernatural element to it rather than just a scientific one.
It's also hard to imagine where all that water receded to without a supernatural element involved.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

TAMBORA - IN MY COLUMN/THREAD ABOVE:

Let’s approach this controversy issue with a little bit of common intelligence. The Nile River in Egypt is as old as the Colorado River, perhaps even older. If age and continual flow are the key factors, why hasn’t the Nile River cut out a canyon as awesome, or at least similar to, the Grand Canyon? Then there’s the Mississippi, the Ohio, the Rio Grande, and many other old waterways. Why haven’t they hewed out canyons?

The answer, I think, is obvious. Time and continual flow have little if anything to do with canyons whose walls are sheer rock, like the Grand Canyon. And we’ll even allow for a little erosion along the way. That still doesn’t cut it, however. For if erosion carved out the Grand Canyon, why hasn’t erosion carved out other old waterways, thus forming canyons of them? Again, age and continual flow have little to do with canyons whose walls are compacted rock.​

 

[Simons]

Let’s approach this controversy issue with a little bit of common intelligence. The Nile River in Egypt is as old as the Colorado River, perhaps even older. If age and continual flow are the key factors, why hasn’t the Nile River cut out a canyon as awesome, or at least similar to, the Grand Canyon? Then there’s the Mississippi, the Ohio, the Rio Grande, and many other old waterways. Why haven’t they hewed out canyons?​

could it be that there is more to it than simply: 1) time and 2) water flow? Do you know a geologist that claims it was just those 2 factors involved in creating the grand canyon? Don't they claim that an uplifting of the plateau is also involved? Is an uplifting of a plateau involved with the lower Nile? ...the Mississippi, ...the Ohio, ....the Rio Grande? What about water freezing and widening the cracks in the stone....does that play a part too?

In any event, the grand canyon enjoys the same level of geological uniqueness whether it was created by erosion over millions of years or by a violent upheaval (that lasted an hour? a day? a month? a year?). So if a little bit of common intelligence causes you to ask: Why don't we see a number of grand canyons around the globe which were also caused by the time + erosion process? .....then shouldn't a little bit of common intelligence cause me to ask: Why don't we see a number of grand canyons around the globe which were also caused by the violent upheaval process?

I wander around the Rocky Mountains quit a bit and everywhere I go I see (what appears to be) evidence of water cutting through rock. Do you think that I should use "a little bit of common intelligence" and chalk those features up to the great upheaval? I note that the difference between the canyons and gorges that I commonly see and the grand canyon seem to be only differences of degree and not of kind.

you said: "we are compelled to admit that at one time the earth experienced a spasmodic revolution or convulsion, such as the one described during the global flood of Noah’s day." I appear to be rather uninformed regarding the geological events that accompanied Noah's flood....could you please provide the description from scripture that would be properly described as a geological "spasmodic revolution or convulsion"? Thanks for your anticipated effort.

P.S. could you also please clarify how long this upheaval/spasmodic revolution/convulsion lasted?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Simons:

Thanks for your insight, whether correct or incorrect. You asked, "Could you please provide the description from scripture that would be properly described as a geological 'spasmodic revolution or convulsion' "?

I have never asserted that "spasmodic revolution or convulsion" is specifically mentioned, as such, in the scriptures. I have commented, however, that "The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth...And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth and all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered” [Gen. 7:18-19]

Please note, “All the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.” Not part of the heaven, but the whole, all together, everyone. It is inferred or strongly indicated that the whole earth experienced a convulsion. "...the waters prevailed so mightily..." is a strong indication. I have done a bushel of research on the Flood and discovered that there is evidence throughout that the entire earth underwent a universal deluge.

I wonder if you might have a copy of The Flood, by Professor Alfred M. Regwinkel (Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, 1951).

Professor Regwinkel submits evidence that the convulsions of the earth during the Flood transformed our planet drastically, including climatic changes. The changes were global. He includes photos of the beasts that once roamed our earth, including a photo of a Beresovka Mammoth, in the flesh, mounted exactly as found in northern Siberia in 1846. Siberia, a frozen piece of ground today, had a mild climate before the Flood. The evidence is there.

It is a certainty, as per biblical and non-biblical evidence, that a catastrophic global flood a few thousand years ago recast planet Earth. I entertain no doubts whatsoever but that the Petrified Forest and Painted Desert of NE Arizona are two of many results related to that catastrophic flood. I have visited those sites more than once.

Forty years ago, in Agate Springs in Sioux County in the Northwestern corner of Nebraska, I actually saw and examined a bone bed that was discovered in 1876. The bone bed contains the bones of rhinoceroses, camels, giant wild boars, and other animals, buried together in a confused mass as only water would deposit them. Buried on this high hill were an estimated nine thousand complete animals, all fled to this elevation in an effort to escape the Flood.

Hundreds of examples such as these are found worldwide—solid evidence that a worldwide flood covered the entire Earth, including every high mountain (Gen. 7:18-19). I think the best route for all of us to take is to believe and accept Heaven's Testimony—man's testimony is not always accurate.

​

 

[Simons]

Simons:

Thanks for your insight, whether correct or incorrect.​

thanks for your response…and the tone thereof

I have never asserted that "spasmodic revolution or convulsion" is specifically mentioned as such in the scriptures.

Fair enough. Are we then in agreement that your assertion (of a spasmodic revolution or convulsion in association with Noah's flood) would be based on man's testimony? …. From what you have said so far it seems to be based on an inference (drawn from scripture) coupled with whatever evidence Rehwinkel (et al) submitted. Are those two things not merely the testimony of men? (I believe that we agree that such is a thing that should always be questioned)

I have done a bushel of research on the Flood and discovered that there is evidence throughout that the entire earth underwent a universal deluge.

three things in relation to this:

Evidence of a deluge is not evidence of convulsion

Evidence of a deluge does not rule out the carving out of canyons by the time plus erosion process

This again (the evidence that you allude to) is just the testimony of men.

As such, you would need to show why your interpretation of the evidence is superior to the typical geologist’s interpretation of the same evidence.

I wonder if you might have a copy of The Flood, by Professor Alfred M. Regwinkel (Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, 1951).

No, I had never heard of the guy. It is Alfred Rehwinkel, right?

…I actually saw and examined a bone bed that was discovered in 1876. The bone bed contains the bones of rhinoceroses, camels, giant wild boars, and other animals, buried together in a confused mass as only water would deposit them. Buried on this high hill were an estimated nine thousand complete animals, all fled to this elevation in an effort to escape the Flood.

I see your interpretation of the evidence here as questionable. I believe pretty well everyone would agree that the animals were deposited in that location by the action of water. The question is “how?”. If the waters of the flood were violent, then those waters would tend to wash the animals off an elevated position and deposit them at a lower elevation. So why not interpret this evidence as evidence of the bone bed being elevated by geological processes overtime?
Further the assertion that 9000 animals all fled to this one location seems a bit unlikely. As floodwaters rose an animal would go to the closest at hand elevated position and when that hill was no longer above water, it would drown. An animal would not have had the foresight to reason that “This flooding looks like it will go on for some time, therefore I best not climb this hill next to me, I better find the highest hill for a 100 miles around.” To me it seems more logical that these 9000 beasts were caught up in a flash flood and their bodies were washed to that location.
I suppose one could imagine that there was a vast plain with a single large hill in the centre of it and as the floodwaters rose all the animals were forced to that one location…. But that seems unlikely and then we're still faced with the problem of why the bodies weren't simply washed away when the waters overtook the top of the hill. It would seem that the piling up of the bodies requires at a “depositing” to have occurred and depositing just doesn't seem to occur on the top of hills.

 

[CrowCross]

I know there are other big canyons, but they are rather sparse.
It just seems like the whole earth would be cover to cover canyons since the whole earth experienced the same flood.
But again, I know very little about the field of geology.

I definitely believe scripture describes a world wide flood that covered every mountain top.
But I imagine it must have had a supernatural element to it rather than just a scientific one.
It's also hard to imagine where all that water receded to without a supernatural element involved.

Not really. If the earth surface was smooth...no mountains or valleys the water would be 2 miles deep.

If you look at a hypsographic curve of earth you would see all the dry earth could be pushed into the ocean.

 

[CrowCross]

could it be that there is more to it than simply: 1) time and 2) water flow? Do you know a geologist that claims it was just those 2 factors involved in creating the grand canyon? Don't they claim that an uplifting of the plateau is also involved? Is an uplifting of a plateau involved with the lower Nile? ...the Mississippi, ...the Ohio, ....the Rio Grande? What about water freezing and widening the cracks in the stone....does that play a part too?

In any event, the grand canyon enjoys the same level of geological uniqueness whether it was created by erosion over millions of years or by a violent upheaval (that lasted an hour? a day? a month? a year?). So if a little bit of common intelligence causes you to ask: Why don't we see a number of grand canyons around the globe which were also caused by the time + erosion process? .....then shouldn't a little bit of common intelligence cause me to ask: Why don't we see a number of grand canyons around the globe which were also caused by the violent upheaval process?

I wander around the Rocky Mountains quit a bit and everywhere I go I see (what appears to be) evidence of water cutting through rock. Do you think that I should use "a little bit of common intelligence" and chalk those features up to the great upheaval? I note that the difference between the canyons and gorges that I commonly see and the grand canyon seem to be only differences of degree and not of kind.

you said: "we are compelled to admit that at one time the earth experienced a spasmodic revolution or convulsion, such as the one described during the global flood of Noah’s day." I appear to be rather uninformed regarding the geological events that accompanied Noah's flood....could you please provide the description from scripture that would be properly described as a geological "spasmodic revolution or convulsion"? Thanks for your anticipated effort.

P.S. could you also please clarify how long this upheaval/spasmodic revolution/convulsion lasted?

Is this what you're looking for?

Psalm 104:
5 He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
9 You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.

 

[CrowCross]

Fair enough. Are we then in agreement that your assertion (of a spasmodic revolution or convulsion in association with Noah's flood) would be based on man's testimony? …. From what you have said so far it seems to be based on an inference (drawn from scripture) coupled with whatever evidence Rehwinkel (et al) submitted. Are those two things not merely the testimony of men? (I believe that we agree that such is a thing that should always be questioned)

There is a very good argument that recumbent folds seen in the rock strata contained in the geological column show a rapid bending of the layers of rock. Scientific insight shows the rocks were still somewhat soft...plastic...when bent or else they would have snapped, crackled and popped. That is not bent as smoothly as we see them.

 

[CrowCross]

Further the assertion that 9000 animals all fled to this one location seems a bit unlikely. As floodwaters rose an animal would go to the closest at hand elevated position and when that hill was no longer above water, it would drown. An animal would not have had the foresight to reason that “This flooding looks like it will go on for some time, therefore I best not climb this hill next to me, I better find the highest hill for a 100 miles around.” To me it seems more logical that these 9000 beasts were caught up in a flash flood and their bodies were washed to that location.
I suppose one could imagine that there was a vast plain with a single large hill in the centre of it and as the floodwaters rose all the animals were forced to that one location…. But that seems unlikely and then we're still faced with the problem of why the bodies weren't simply washed away when the waters overtook the top of the hill. It would seem that the piling up of the bodies requires at a “depositing” to have occurred and depositing just doesn't seem to occur on the top of hills.

The flood would have started out as many smaller localized flood....eventually joining to create one world wide flood. As the flood waters receded the process would have been reversed.

What I found amazing is that when I drove through Texas I looked around and saw many buttes with flat tops...separated by many miles.
How did the tops get flat? The receding flood water sheered them off. It's also interesting to note the entire area was once covered with flood sediment between each butte...and all that "dirt" was washed away.

 

[Simons]

Is this what you're looking for?

Psalm 104:
5 He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
9 You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.

something like that....but not that, as I understand Psalms 104 to be describing the creation (and not the flood).

 

[Simons]

The flood would have started out as many smaller localized flood....eventually joining to create one world wide flood. As the flood waters receded the process would have been reversed.

What I found amazing is that when I drove through Texas I looked around and saw many buttes with flat tops...separated by many miles.
How did the tops get flat? The receding flood water sheered them off. It's also interesting to note the entire area was once covered with flood sediment between each butte...and all that "dirt" was washed away.

receding water does not tend to remove the volume of dirt that you describe as being washed away. It would seem that fast flowing water is necessary...What you seem to be saying is that:

1. Texas was completely submerged under a considerable depth of water
2. the land of Texas was elevated such that the water ran off of the Texas area (or is it that sea level dropped causing the water to run off of the Texas area)
3 The water "running off" took a ridiculous amount of rock and and soil with it.

I have a gravel alley behind my house and when we have a downpour the rain water carves a serious rut in the alley. It is my observation that:

a. the volume of water involved is many, many times the volume of gravel that is moved
b. the gravel is only moved where the volume of water is high and it is moving with a (relatively) strong force

Regarding the Texas scenario, Genesis 8 seems to describe a steady gradual receding of the water...that doesn't seem to be a description of something that would have the force necessary to move the required volume of rock and soil. IMHO a gradual receding would simply leave virtually all of the rock and soil in place.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

thanks for your response…and the tone thereof

Fair enough. Are we then in agreement that your assertion (of a spasmodic revolution or convulsion in association with Noah's flood) would be based on man's testimony? …. From what you have said so far it seems to be based on an inference (drawn from scripture) coupled with whatever evidence Rehwinkel (et al) submitted. Are those two things not merely the testimony of men? (I believe that we agree that such is a thing that should always be questioned)

three things in relation to this:

Evidence of a deluge is not evidence of convulsion

Evidence of a deluge does not rule out the carving out of canyons by the time plus erosion process

This again (the evidence that you allude to) is just the testimony of men.

As such, you would need to show why your interpretation of the evidence is superior to the typical geologist’s interpretation of the same evidence.

No, I had never heard of the guy. It is Alfred Rehwinkel, right?

I see your interpretation of the evidence here as questionable. I believe pretty well everyone would agree that the animals were deposited in that location by the action of water. The question is “how?”. If the waters of the flood were violent, then those waters would tend to wash the animals off an elevated position and deposit them at a lower elevation. So why not interpret this evidence as evidence of the bone bed being elevated by geological processes overtime?
Further the assertion that 9000 animals all fled to this one location seems a bit unlikely. As floodwaters rose an animal would go to the closest at hand elevated position and when that hill was no longer above water, it would drown. An animal would not have had the foresight to reason that “This flooding looks like it will go on for some time, therefore I best not climb this hill next to me, I better find the highest hill for a 100 miles around.” To me it seems more logical that these 9000 beasts were caught up in a flash flood and their bodies were washed to that location.
I suppose one could imagine that there was a vast plain with a single large hill in the centre of it and as the floodwaters rose all the animals were forced to that one location…. But that seems unlikely and then we're still faced with the problem of why the bodies weren't simply washed away when the waters overtook the top of the hill. It would seem that the piling up of the bodies requires at a “depositing” to have occurred and depositing just doesn't seem to occur on the top of hills.

Simons:

You inquired, "Are those two things merely the testimony of men?" It seems quite apparent that we both are resorting to the testimony of men, with one possibly exception. I assert that some of my testimony is based on Heaven's testimony. In other words, the inferences relating to the causative and non-causative effects of the Flood, per the scriptures I quoted, seem to be strongly valid.

On the other hand, some of your inferences and conclusions relating to the Flood do not, at least to me, seem to coincide with the same scriptures. Tell me, how do you understand, "...and the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth and all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered” [Gen. 7:18-19].

As I told one reader, "The answer, I think, is obvious. Time and continual flow have little if anything to do with canyons whose walls are sheer rock, like the Grand Canyon. And we’ll even allow for a little erosion along the way. That still doesn’t cut it, however. For if erosion carved out the Grand Canyon, why hasn’t erosion carved out other old waterways, thus forming canyons of them? Again, age and continual flow have little to do with canyons whose walls are compacted rock."

Well, we'll go on believing or disbelieving some or all of the aspects of this controversy. But some day, when Heaven becomes a reality, we will then know assuredly if "all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered"—Heaven's Testimony.​

​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Nothing presented in this is either biblical or scientific. It is strictly the imaginings of one clearly uninformed about the geology of the region.

Jim:

Is the geology information you present biblical? In other words, Heaven's Testimony? Is it simply man's understanding and has no biblical basis? If it has no biblical basis, who is its author? Could the uninformed be its source?​