The history of the church.

[Arch Stanton]

I believe that you and @Alive have made them very angry,

who is angry? @Alive @Carbon

to the point of blathering and blubbering.

is that what you call it when people have opposing views?

The truth hurts and must stay hidden syndrome.

I love the truth... remember Arial, Jn 8:31-32

 

[Arial]

who is angry? @Alive @Carbon

is that what you call it when people have opposing views?

I love the truth... remember Arial, Jn 8:31-32

Stick to the topic.

 

[Carbon]

Here is another interesting part of history from Luther.

Luther, searching into the annals of the Church, he discovered that the supremacy of Rome had its origin in the ambition of one party and the credulous ignorance of another. Silence, as to these melancholy discoveries, was not permitted to him. The pride of his adversaries, - the victory they pretended to have gained, - their endeavors to put out the light, decided his purpose. He went foreward in the way wherein God led him, without disquieting himself as to the result to which it might lead him. Luther had marked this as the epoch of his enfranchisement from the papal yoke. "learn of me, "says he," how hard is it to unlearn the errors which the whole confirms by its example, and which, by long use, have become to us as second nature. I had for seven years read and hourly expounded the Scriptures with much zeal so that I knew almost all by heart. I had also all the firstfruits of the knowledge and faith of my Lord Jesus Christ; that is, I knew that we are justified and saved, not by works, but by faith in Christ; and I even openly maintained that it is not by divine right that the pope is chief of the Christian Church. And yet . . I could not see the conclusion from all this; namely, - that of nesessity and beyond doubt, the pope is of the devil. For what is not of God, must needs be of the devil. Luther adds, further on - I do not now give free utterance to my indignation against those who still adhere to the Pope. since I, who had for so many years read the Holy Scriptures with so much care, yet held to the Papacy with so much obstinacy.

I pray you RC's reading this will consider Luther's wrords here. Read them carefully as they are very important.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Stick to the topic.

you defamed our character though... not very sporting

 

[Carbon]

Here is another interesting part of history from Luther.

Luther, searching into the annals of the Church, he discovered that the supremacy of Rome had its origin in the ambition of one party and the credulous ignorance of another. Silence, as to these melancholy discoveries, was not permitted to him. The pride of his adversaries, - the victory they pretended to have gained, - their endeavors to put out the light, decided his purpose. He went foreward in the way wherein God led him, without disquieting himself as to the result to which it might lead him. Luther had marked this as the epoch of his enfranchisement from the papal yoke. "learn of me, "says he," how hard is it to unlearn the errors which the whole confirms by its example, and which, by long use, have become to us as second nature. I had for seven years read and hourly expounded the Scriptures with much zeal so that I knew almost all by heart. I had also all the firstfruits of the knowledge and faith of my Lord Jesus Christ; that is, I knew that we are justified and saved, not by works, but by faith in Christ; and I even openly maintained that it is not by divine right that the pope is chief of the Christian Church. And yet . . I could not see the conclusion from all this; namely, - that of nesessity and beyond doubt, the pope is of the devil. For what is not of God, must needs be of the devil. Luther adds, further on - I do not now give free utterance to my indignation against those who still adhere to the Pope. since I, who had for so many years read the Holy Scriptures with so much care, yet held to the Papacy with so much obstinacy.

I pray you RC's reading this will consider Luther's wrords here. Read them carefully as they are very important.

@Arch Stanton and @donadams Please consider Luther's words.

 

[Alive]

The most conservative estimates of the murders of Christians by the papacy is in the 10s of millions. These precious saints were tortured and horribly killed for centuries. Research the group of believers called the Waldensians for a pointed example.
The many histories written on these things is overwhelming. No single entity in history has caused more carnage than the Papacy. This cannot be debated.
Estimates of the Number Killed by the Papacy in the Middle Ages

Estimates of the Number Killed by the Papacy in the Middle Ages

 

[Arch Stanton]

Here is another interesting part of history from Luther.

Luther, searching into the annals of the Church, he discovered that the supremacy of Rome had its origin in the ambition of one party and the credulous ignorance of another. Silence, as to these melancholy discoveries, was not permitted to him. The pride of his adversaries, - the victory they pretended to have gained, - their endeavors to put out the light, decided his purpose. He went foreward in the way wherein God led him, without disquieting himself as to the result to which it might lead him. Luther had marked this as the epoch of his enfranchisement from the papal yoke. "learn of me, "says he," how hard is it to unlearn the errors which the whole confirms by its example, and which, by long use, have become to us as second nature. I had for seven years read and hourly expounded the Scriptures with much zeal so that I knew almost all by heart. I had also all the firstfruits of the knowledge and faith of my Lord Jesus Christ; that is, I knew that we are justified and saved, not by works, but by faith in Christ; and I even openly maintained that it is not by divine right that the pope is chief of the Christian Church. And yet . . I could not see the conclusion from all this; namely, - that of nesessity and beyond doubt, the pope is of the devil. For what is not of God, must needs be of the devil. Luther adds, further on - I do not now give free utterance to my indignation against those who still adhere to the Pope. since I, who had for so many years read the Holy Scriptures with so much care, yet held to the Papacy with so much obstinacy.

I pray you RC's reading this will consider Luther's wrords here. Read them carefully as they are very important.

I read it... his words have as much authority as yours or mine....

searching into the annals of the Church, he discovered that the supremacy of Rome had its origin in the ambition of one party and the credulous ignorance of another.

What do we do with this? Where is his proof of anything regarding this statement?

I even openly maintained that it is not by divine right that the pope is chief of the Christian Church.

Again, what shall we do with this statement? Where is his proof of anything here?

Thanks

 

[Carbon]

I read it... his words have as much authority as yours or mine....

I'm just trying to help.

What do we do with this? Where is his proof of anything regarding this statement?

Do with it what you like Arch.

Again, what shall we do with this statement? Where is his proof of anything here?

Thanks

Again, do with it what you like Arch.

 

[Arch Stanton]

I'm just trying to help.

Do with it what you like Arch.

Again, do with it what you like Arch.

No proof was given regarding his 'research'. How are we supposed to be enlightened?

 

[Arch Stanton]

I'm just trying to help.

Do with it what you like Arch.

Again, do with it what you like Arch.

Why do you think Luther mentions Peter as the representative of the one and only Church? [A brief explanation of the Creed; Works of Martin Luther vol. 2 - p.373]

'In like manner He says, in Matthew xvi, to the one man Peter, who stands as the representative of the one and only Church.'

@Alive

 

[Alive]

I would ask champions of the RCC and its papacy how you justify supporting what has killed and tortured many millions of Christians who would not bow before it.
This alone, should be enough to cause a change of mind.

 

[Carbon]

@Arch Stanton and @donadams I hope you both realize I am just trying to help you both.

Not only has the Church of Rome messed with your heads and saturated you both in its doctrines, but it also guards you so it is very difficult to get out. Listen to Luther again on this subject.

The Romanists have raised three barriers against all reformation. When the temporal power has attacked them, they have denied its authority and asserted that the spiritual power was superior to it. When anyone rebuked them out of scripture, they have answered, that no one but the pope was able to interpret scripture. When they have been threatened with a council, the reply has been, no one but the soverigne Pontiff has authority to convoke a council.

They have thus wrestled from our hands the three rods destined to correct them, and have given the reign to all evil.

But now, God help us and give us one of those trumpets which overthrew the walls of Jericho! With the breath of our lips, let us throw down the paper walls, which the Romanists have built around them, and lift up the scourges which punish the wicked, by exposing the wiles and stratagems of the devil.

 

[Carbon]

Why do you think Luther mentions Peter as the representative of the one and only Church? [A brief explanation of the Creed; Works of Martin Luther vol. 2 - p.373]

'In like manner He says, in Matthew xvi, to the one man Peter, who stands as the representative of the one and only Church.'

@Alive

Why Arch?

 

[Arch Stanton]

I would ask champions of the RCC and its papacy how you justify supporting what has killed and tortured many millions of Christians who would not bow before it.
This alone, should be enough to cause a change of mind.

The Catholic Church has faced accusations of murdering non-Catholics, particularly during the periods of the Inquisition. However, it's important to understand the context and the facts. The Inquisition, which began in 1184, was primarily established to address heresies like Catharism. There were different inquisitions, including the Medieval, Roman, and Spanish Inquisitions. The Spanish Inquisition, often cited for its severity, was a state institution aimed at identifying **conversos**—Jews and Muslims who pretended to convert to Christianity but secretly practiced their former religion (Article 2). While abuses did occur, the numbers often cited by critics are exaggerated. For example, some claim that millions were killed, but these figures are not supported by historical evidence. Fundamentalists often use inflated statistics to criticize the Church (Article 2). It's crucial to recognize that the Church, like any institution, has had its share of sinners and misguided zeal. However, these actions do not negate the divine foundation of the Church. As Jesus said, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Understanding the historical context and the actual events helps to clarify these complex issues. [CA]

 

[Carbon]

No proof was given regarding his 'research'. How are we supposed to be enlightened?

Arch, feel free to deny whichever you like. Again, I am trying to help and I am not going to quote everything I write for you. Lord willing, He will lead you out.

 

[Arch Stanton]

@Arch Stanton and @donadams I hope you both realize I am just trying to help you both.

We all need the Holy Spirit!

 

[Carbon]

We all need the Holy Spirit!

Indeed we do.

So, push your popes aside for now.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Why Arch?

Do you not find his words interesting Carbon?

'In like manner He says, in Matthew xvi, to the one man Peter, who stands as the representative of the one and only Church.'

He claims Peter as the representative of what? The one and only Church. That speaks volumes Carbon!

 

[Arch Stanton]

Indeed we do.

So, push your popes aside for now.

God even said this...

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

[Carbon]

God even said this...

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Sure Arch, but the popes dont rule over us.