The heresy that I find inherent in Calvinism

[His clay]

Again, a person is enabled to receive or reject Christ when he or she is drawn to Christ.

This is not regeneration unless the person actually receives Christ.

Which does not address what I wrote, hence the red herring fallacy. That you like to repeat yourself does not actually deal with the issue under focus.

Again, you have failed to respond to the issue you have raised and my response to it. Namely, you have failed, yet again, to deal with the reality that nature directly impacts what we choose. Thusly, what you call a logical conclusion of Calvinism is nothing more than a non-sequitur fallacy in your head. Are you going to keep avoiding the issue and dodging? Or are you going to deal with what you have been avoiding? Do you really think that all this bobbing and weaving is demonstrating your point? Do you see now that nature directly impacts choices, and therefore, your reasoning is a non-sequitur fallacy?

 

[justbyfaith]

What I have said presents an alternate point of view to what you are saying and that is all.

In this point of view, man is held responsible for his rejection of Christ.

That's important.

If man cannot be held responsible for his rejection of Christ, then God is ultimately responsible for frying him in everlasting burnings and turns out to be a cosmic sadist.

 

[His clay]

What I have said presents an alternate point of view to what you are saying and that is all.

In this point of view, man is held responsible for his rejection of Christ.

That's important.

If man cannot be held responsible for his rejection of Christ, then God is ultimately responsible for frying him in everlasting burnings and turns out to be a cosmic sadist.

Which again does not deal with the issue I am addressing. Why keep avoiding the issue? The issue is that you asserted that a logical implication of Calvinism is that regeneration and faith can be separated. But I keep pointing you back to the reality that a person's nature directly impacts what they choose. Hence, what you call a logical ramification of Calvinism is nothing more than a non-sequitur fallacy on your part. Are you going to start dealing with the issue now. Or are you going to keep on avoiding the issue that you raised, and have failed miserably to back up.

Hence, it is amply demonstrated not only that you have deliberately chosen to erect a straw man fallacy of Calvinism, but it is also amply demonstrated that you have committed a non-sequitur fallacy to try to hide that fact. Now, here is where the rubber meets to road. Are you going to keep lying about Calvinism, even though you have completely failed to defend your claims against it?

 

[His clay]

Again, the issue was that a person's nature direct impacts what they choose. After all, I can't choose to breath water, because I don't have gills. I can choose to leap tall building with a single bound because my nature has a direct causal bearing upon what I choose, thusly, when you say "apart from" you are wrong and demonstrating a non-sequitur fallacy. Are you still going to keep on ignoring the evidence?

I made a significant typo here. The sentence ought to read. "I can't chose to leap a tall building with a single bound because my nature has a direct causal bearing upon what I choose . . ." Note the superman reference.

 

[Josheb]

I'm glad you caught the shift in terms, from "regeneration preceding faith" to "regeneration preceding coming to Jesus". I missed that in my own critique because I mentally inserted "faith" as nearly synonymous with "coming to Jesus". I also see your wise decision to ask questions preemptively in a non-optional way to try to push the poster to engage.

I asked those questions because they are all op-relevant, provide an opportunity to build agreement, address presuppositional concerns, and, most simply, because some of that ought to be established before the thread unfolded so everyone could better understand the op. My approach also provides so degree of understanding for the readers because any author of any op that answers op-relevant questions directly (and immediately) is much more likely to further a cogent conversation than those who do not.

I haven't read the thread past your post here, so I don't know if your stipulation succeeded.

It did not.

Great post!

Thank you. The appreciation is appreciated . May God bless you accordingly .

 

[Mr GLee]

Since regeneration and "coming to Christ" are synonymous the criticism is nonsensical. If a person has been regenerated from above by the Spirit (which is Christ's) then s/he has also already come to Christ. Regenerate people do not need to come to Christ for conversion from death to life because they are already converted. So, once again, I ask you if you got this notion from a leading Calvinist teacher and, if so, would you mind providing that source so I can read it for myself. Otherwise, this op reads like so many others: baseless nonsense.

I would think it is altogether a work of Christ's faith or labor of His love . The law of faith (believing God) "Let there be" and there was a "new creation" .

The key many overlook is both. ..to will and to do according to his power. The kind of food the disciples knew not of at first

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Dying mankind has no power of its own to rise to new spiritual life.

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Some like Jesus delighted to do the will of the Father. Yoked with Christ some murmur like Jonah

God in not served by the dying hnds of mankind he can use a unbeliever to preach His gospel as easily as one that does believe (have faith)

 

[Josheb]

I would think it is altogether a work of Christ's faith or labor of His love . The law of faith (believing God) "Let there be" and there was a "new creation" .

You're going to have to clarify that for me because the "law of faith" applies to the human, not God. Conversely, the "Let there be..." resulting in a new creation is all and only God. In Calvinism, the human necessity for faith is predicated on a divine "Let there be....... faith," which results in the new creation = the newly created regenerate believer in the resurrected Son.

If that is what you mean then I agree.

This is important because the angel is in the details. The synergists believe faith precedes regeneration, not the other way around, and that position ends up creating what are imo serious problems scripturally, theologically, and logically. The least among them is that the faculties of the sinful flesh are used to obtain salvation from the sin - salvation from sin by sinful conditions is circular. More egregiously the synergist position makes the God dependent on sin and the Creator dependent on the creature (who is sinful). There are other problems resulting from the faith-precedes-regeneration pov but either of those two are sufficiently fatal and inescapable in synergism.

The key many overlook is both. ..to will and to do according to his power. The kind of food the disciples knew not of at first

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Dying mankind has no power of its own to rise to new spiritual life.

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Some like Jesus delighted to do the will of the Father. Yoked with Christ some murmur like Jonah

I'm going to bypass this portion because its a mixture of Old and New that speaks to three different categories of people and not wholly relevant to the op. For example, The Philippians 2 text was written to and about the already regenerate. I (and you) apply it to all people because it is generalizable to all but, properly speaking, it was not written about all. The "you" in the verse is the saints in Philippi. That God would work in the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner is clear in many examples in the Bible (like Pharoah, Nebuchadnezzar, or Herod, the use of pagan nations to bring judgment through war, etc.)

God [is]not served by the dying hnds of mankind

Correct.

Synergists believe otherwise, and they believe it applies soteriologically.

....he can use a unbeliever to preach His gospel as easily as one that does believe (have faith)

I'm not sure that is wholly correct or, if correct, it is qualified.

1Corinthians 12:3
Therefore, I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Correctly examined, that verse is about profession of salvation and the lordship of Christ (he is Lord of all - the saved and unsaved alike - whether acknowledged by all or not, but he cannot be Savior to any who do not also claim him as their Lord). Many people possess an intellectual assent of Jesus as Lord and some might articulate (I am not sure "preach" is an applicable word in this context) the facts of the gospel and accept them intellectually or academically as the facts of the gospel. None of that would be Spirit-regenerated, Spirit-indwelt, Spirit-empowered life by which profession is made.

On the outside it might all look like chocolate but don't get too close because the odor might reveal it's something else .

 

[Mr GLee]

You're going to have to clarify that for me because the "law of faith" applies to the human, not God. Conversely, the "Let there be..." resulting in a new creation is all and only God. In Calvinism, the human necessity for faith is predicated on a divine "Let there be....... faith," which results in the new creation = the newly created regenerate believer in the resurrected Son.

Hi thanks

Faith (not seen) one of those mysterious things a person puts on the back burner building on its meaning and purpose .

Many say God does not need faith .Not understanding its power to reveal the unseen things of God the eternal,

His Faith (belief) is a creative power

Mankind created in the image . Both are reckoned with faith or called a work of faith or labor of love .

It opposes the letter of the law "death" taking away from self righteousness the letter of the law.

Romans 3:27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Again the word faith represent both human faith and the faith of Christ (belief) as it is written

Faith . . .Power

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law(letter death") but that which is through the faith (Power) of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (His)
The let there be and the testimony sen was good

Isaiah 8 can be used as a commentary of the work of faith labor of love.ising believers and the who seek the faith (called no faith) of dying mankind. Two kinds of seeking the first (dardash) necromancy seeking the dead for the living, The second seeking unto God the living to the spiritually dead

Isaiah 8:19-20 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law ("let there be") and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word,(one) it is because there is no light in them.

The word faith as power most of time(99%) is reconked unto God as that which moves man to both will and do his god pleasure

The word faith is used 12 times in James 2 never to represent the faith of dying mankind . .no power

 

[jeremiah1five]

It appears to me that in Calvinism there is a very deep-rooted problem that amounts to heresy and I believe that it needs to be addressed.
And that is that the doctrine proclaims that a person is regenerated before they can come to Christ.
I will only say that if this is the case, then coming to Christ isn't necessary; since regeneration happens before it (and thus apart from it).
This is an abject heresy of Calvinism that must needs be corrected within its own framework of theology and doctrine.

I am not a Calvinist, but I do believe the Scripture reveals the following, namely this:

Before God created heaven, earth, and man a lamb was slain in the heavenly Tabernacle. This allowed God to create a sinful man and declared "let us make man in our image" that the "image of God" is not Adam, but Christ. There is a natural (Adam) and there is a spiritual (Christ - Heb. "Anointing") and that Christ bearing the image of the Father applies that image to the "new creation" to be born in the name of the Father whose plan it is to do the following:

Several things were determined when this heavenly Tabernacle sacrifice was made:

In the course of saving His covenant people there will be men of Israel (prophets) that are ordained to die in the course of giving the message of God to His people Israel, including the Prophet of prophets Jesus Christ.
#1. That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, Lk 11:50.

That a Redeemer is ordained to die for the ransom of this covenant people Israel:
#2. Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:20.

That a people are ordained to life in the course of God's Redemptive plan:
#3. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:3–5.

That a kingdom is prepared to house this covenant people Israel with a King (God) at its center.
#4. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mt 25:34.

That based on this book's "publishing" (not an actual book) in the heavenly Tabernacle sacrifice in pre-history, God has ordained names in this "book" in eternity and is only proceeding forward in time according to these names that are to be given life which at the appropriate time will receive life and life abundantly.
#5. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8.

That there are things "secret" (with the granting of His people the ability to find out these secrets), and things "secret" (that belong only to Him that are beyond His people's ability to find out its meaning.)
#6. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Mt 13:35.

That there are other particulars ordained and determined at the time of the heavenly Tabernacle sacrifice that relate to the Redemption of this people named in the book of life that apply to God's plan to redeem them, other "works."
#7. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb 4:2–3.

That it was ordained to this Redeemer to suffer throughout His life culminating in one final suffering to atone for this people named in the book of life of the lamb.
#8. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:26–28.

That the foundation of this redemptive plan reveals a covenant or agreement to all the above with regard to this Redeemer who will endure all that is ordained for Him to endure and receive all that is due Him for enduring it, mainly, that the Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father and between them both a people will be loved and in this plan to redeem this people to the saving of their souls, the Redeemer will receive glory for the administration of this plan.
#9. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Jn 17:22–24.

Since God is Spirit, His image cannot be a natural man, there is a process played out in time to make this natural man a spiritual man and possessing the ability to bear that image in the continuation of that life and beyond. This requires a new creation to occur that makes the person named in the book of life and ordained to life to bear the image of the Son who bears the image of the Father thus making two into one before God.
The name for this [re-]creation is called regeneration. God has to generate a new creation, one that will have the capacity to bear His image. This people are then to be conformed to the image of Christ, not Adam as the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16.

And there you have it. Salvation of God in a nutshell.