The heresy that I find inherent in Calvinism

[ReverendRV]

yes...I don't see that as being outside the lines of biblical teaching.

Neither does a Calvinist...

 

[justbyfaith]

Neither does a Calvinist...

A broken cock is right twice a day...

 

[makesends]

If it is not established, then I assume you have a logical contention with what I am saying.

You need to go ahead and present that if we are going to continue this conversation.

Ha! First you try to establish that Calvinism teaches that silly construction, then you try to establish that that construction isn't true. And you want to claim everyone agrees with you?

 

[justbyfaith]

Ha! First you try to establish that Calvinism teaches that silly construction, then you try to establish that that construction isn't true. And you want to claim everyone agrees with you?

You appear to believe that it is true. Are you a Calvinist?

If it isn't a true construction, then why object that it isn't what Calvinism teaches?

 

[makesends]

You appear to believe that it is true. Are you a Calvinist?

If it isn't a true construction, then why object that it isn't what Calvinism teaches?

Because you are attempting, once again, to divide. If "we" agree with you that it is false, after "we" have allowed it is a reasonable representation of what Calvinism teaches, then you will think you have found another discrepancy. Give it up. WE didn't agree to your strawman.

 

[justbyfaith]

Because you are attempting, once again, to divide. If "we" agree with you that it is false, after "we" have allowed it is a reasonable representation of what Calvinism teaches, then you will think you have found another discrepancy. Give it up. WE didn't agree to your strawman.

Nevertheless, it is a true construct and is in fact a reasonable representation of what Calvinism teaches; whether you agree with that or not.

Because the fact is, that you cannot come up with any kind of logical refutation of what I have been saying here.

 

[SeventhDay]

It appears to me that in Calvinism there is a very deep-rooted problem that amounts to heresy and I believe that it needs to be addressed.

And that is that the doctrine proclaims that a person is regenerated before they can come to Christ.

I will only say that if this is the case, then coming to Christ isn't necessary; since regeneration happens before it (and thus apart from it).

This is an abject heresy of Calvinism that must needs be corrected within its own framework of theology and doctrine.

Without spiritual regeneration one can not come to Christ lacking spiritual faith and spiritual conviction as a result of being dead in trespasses and sins. Jesus death means the death of the old man with Christ and it is the new spiritual man that replaces the old once one is quickened out of death. The carnal mind is hostile to God and needs a Savior which is why Jesus died and rose again for the sinner who God raises out of death with a spiritual disposition to hear God's spiritual calling with spiritual ears and a spiritual heart to believe the gospel message.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It appears to me that in Calvinism there is a very deep-rooted problem that amounts to heresy and I believe that it needs to be addressed.
And that is that the doctrine proclaims that a person is regenerated before they can come to Christ.

I am not a Calvinist, but I'll give you Scripture that addresses your posit:

Let's first agree that the 'thief' in this verse is sin, not any fallen angel.
Since Christ's aim is to give life and life more abundantly then the opposite of life would be death. And sin accomplishes death. No fallen angel - Satan, Lucifer, or otherwise can steal or kill or destroy without permission of God to do so in any of these acts as the experiences of Job reveals.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 10:10.

The biblical definition of the word "sin" ("hamartia") means "missing the mark."
What is that mark? It is the glory or standard of God, or that is God.
The biblical result of sin is death - eternal, physical, and spiritual.
All three ontological senses are affected.

In the verse below I see the "kingdom of God" as Christ Himself. And He makes this declaration to prove He is King by what He's doing and that is, "casting out devils by the Spirit of God."
Now, I italicized "devils" because I don't see this word describing "fallen angels." I take the word "devils" as the carnal, sinful mind or attitudes that are in man - saved or unsaved.
Next, the 'strong man' is sin. If one is to take any of the strong man's goods someone stronger must bind the strong man before he can take his goods.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mt 12:28-29.

27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Mk 3:27.

21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
Lk 11:20–22.

The Stronger man (Christ) came and through His life, death, and resurrection conquered sin and death and now is free to take all that He wants that belonged to the strong man. But Christ doesn't do the actual pilfering. That is the Ministry of the Holy Spirit when applied to a person. And based on election He does this.

I will only say that if this is the case, then coming to Christ isn't necessary; since regeneration happens before it (and thus apart from it).

Salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9.)
All "parts" of salvation are of the LORD.
Repentance, faith, conversion, regeneration, everything accompanying salvation are of the LORD. Regeneration is not "apart" from salvation but accompanies it.
And once a person has the salvation bought by the Son on the cross of Calvary applied to them, they are free from the 'strong man' and there is nowhere else to go but God.
And to God they go.

This is an abject heresy of Calvinism that must needs be corrected within its own framework of theology and doctrine.

I've given you the biblical 'framework' according to Scripture.

 

[Arial]

I would say that it means that when a person is drawn to Christ, he is enabled to either receive or reject Christ.

What does it mean to be drawn to Christ? What does it mean to receive Him or reject Him? Why can't someone do that without the Holy Spirit?
Why isn't man's free unless He is drawn to Christ? How does being drawn to Him make his will free?

Apart from the Spirit of the Lord, he does not have the ability to make that choice.

Why not? How does the Spirit make him able to do what he couldn't do before?

 

[Arial]

Feel free to show it to me.

Again? Will you read and consider it this time?



25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”




35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”



52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus[d] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.





60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

You mentioned salvation: -

A person certainly can see both free will and non-free will passages in the Bible but if there actually were both, when it comes to the "process" of salvation, then the Bible would be contradicting itself.

That's why I brought it up.

 

[Arial]

You are going to have to set them forth more clearly.

More clearly than Jesus did? Isn't it the Bible we are meant to read and understand?

 

[Arial]

You mentioned salvation: -

That's why I brought it up.

So, do you adhere to some form of free will? If so, how do you see free will?

 

[Arial]

I will only say that if this is the case, then coming to Christ isn't necessary; since regeneration happens before it (and thus apart from it).

Faith happens because of it.

 

[Arial]

It states that we are not regenerated apart from making a free will decision to receive Christ; which is neither of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man.

The first half of your statement is contradicted by the second half. A free will decision is of the flesh and the will of man. The passage your refer to goes on to say "but it is of God."

My contention has always been that no one can come to Christ unless he is drawn to Him by the Father.

And all that are drawn He will raise up at the last day. No one can come to Him unless it is granted by the Father that he come to Him.

"You do not believe because you are not My sheep." John 10.

"Those He foreknew, He also predestined, and those He predestined, He also called, and those He called He also justified---" Romans 8:29-30

"My sheep hear My voice and they know Me and follow Me---" John 10

"Unless one is born again He cannot see the kingdom of heaven." John 3

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

However, being drawn to Christ is not the same thing as being given to Christ.

According to the scripture you refer to and in the very same sentence it does for Jesus also said those drawn to Him are the same ones He will raise up at the last day.

But in being drawn to Christ, we are given a free will decision to either receive or reject Christ.

Where does it say that?

Receive Him and be regenerated.

1 Cor 2:14 says we can't receive Him or even understand spiritual things unless we have the Spirit first. And being given a choice is not having Him. And Jesus would have lied when He said in John 3 that we cannot even see or inherit the kingdom unless we are born again first.

Reject Him; and you were drawn to Christ, but never saved.

Then Jesus lied when He said He would raise up at the last day all who were drawn to Him.

 

[Arial]

So, I believe that we have established that it is a false (although logical) conclusion of such doctrines as Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement that "I may be of the non-elect; and if this be the case, there is no redemption for me."

You have established nothing. How can something be logical and also false at the same time? Is God illogical? There is no redemption for those God does not save. How could there be?

 

[Arial]

If it is not established, then I assume you have a logical contention with what I am saying.

You need to go ahead and present that if we are going to continue this conversation.

You need to stop asking people to do what they have already done, over and over and over, and then saying that they haven't done so.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

So, do you adhere to some form of free will? If so, how do you see free will?

Everybody adheres to some form of free will. If they don't, I can't see how they can navigate their way through life. They would have to be a puppet or unconscious.

I see free will in the scriptures in a lot of places. So do you.

 

[Arial]

Everybody adheres to some form of free will. If they don't, I can't see how they can navigate their way through life. They would have to be a puppet or unconscious.

I see free will in the scriptures in a lot of places. So do you.

Freely making choices is not the same thing as free will. Your representation here seems to be the one that assumes that the doctrines found in Reformed theology teach that man has no will, or that the fall destroyed our will. It does not teach that. It teaches that our will (total depravity) was affected by the fall like all the rest of our being. And the Bible teaches that we are slaves to sin, held in bondage to it. Therefore our will, which does not make choices independently of us, acts according to the bondage in which we are held. That is the very definition of not being free.

And even in the freedom in which Adam and Eve were created---in that they could freely make choices but were not in bondage to sin---they, as are all those who God creates, never had an autonomous will and were never autonomous. We are then and always subordinate to God and His will and required to trust and obey Him.

The discussions on free will are not about whether man makes choices or not, though that is often conflated into it by the naysayers, thus the confusion. The discussion of free will is generally in the connection of total depravity and of salvation. A creature bound by sin and acting accordingly, will not will to choose Christ. Not only does he consider God his enemy, more importantly, God considers him His enemy. A sinful creature is never allowed to approach His throne unless he is first cleansed by the High Priest, Jesus our Lord. We see this truth depicted clearly in the OT sacrifices and the role the high priest played in them.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Freely making choices is not the same thing as free will.

Yes it is.

And you know there are passages of scripture that show free will. Total depravity or "T" is an unfortunate word choice, which is why reformed Christians seek to change it because they KNOW it isn't true.