The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[TMSO]

I don't spiritualize prophecy. Give me an example of my doing that. And then I will show you that you do not know the difference between spiritualizing and spiritual application. I will show you that finding the interpretation of symbols, and that seeing in prophecies, where it does exist, that not everything that is being said refers only to that time and that place, from within the word of God and the information we have that they did not, is not spiritualizing, but rightly dividing the word of God. I will show you that it comes from knowing who the entire Bible is about---Christ---and what it is about---the Covenant of Redemption for the world. And I will show you that just because something is given its spirutal application, does not mean it is not also literal.

You keep saying that the one who strengthens and violates the covenant in Daniel's 70 weeks is Jesus. This is because you completely remove that part of the prophecy. Even the amillennialist interpretation you gave completely ignored the directly prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. It's like it wasn't even there. And why? Well, if you keep that part of what God says, then you have to admit that the 70th week is on hold. Church father's like Irenaues, Clement of Alexandria, Apollinaris, etc. had a gap in the 70 weeks. Hippolytus had a dispensationalist like gap in the 70 weeks, with the last week being the week of antichrist. Apollinaris believed the 70 weeks end with Jesus second coming. His second advent as King.

That would be an example of spiritualizing the Bible, as none of that is actually in the Bible.

I don't even see where they are calling the He, Israel. The "He" to them was Messiah. Just as it is to the believing non-Jew. They did not recognize Jesus as that Messiah. That is not spiritualizing, it is being spiritually blind.

I did some digging, and because I didn't bother checking dates is where the issue is. It wasn't until the 14th century that the change occurred. And it was gradual. They believed that it was an individual, but not the Messiah.

So who is your King and your Savior? Mine is that same One who rose from the grave and ascended back into heaven, where He was crowned King, having completed the work of Redemption.

Mine is sitting at the right hand of the Father, until the Father makes all of His enemies His footstool, at which time He will be crowned King until the final enemy, death, is defeated, at which time He will return the kingdom to the Father, that He may be all in all. When is death finally defeated? Revelation 20, when death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Which, coincidentally, happens at the end of the Millennial kingdom. All Christ's enemies are gathered together at the end of Revelation 19. Altogether, to be crushed by Christ.

 

[Arial]

You keep saying that the one who strengthens and violates the covenant in Daniel's 70 weeks is Jesus

Where have I said that?

Because of the D'ist view end times prophecy as a rapture of the saints immediately prior to a seven year tribulation in which the unbelieving Jews are dealt with and redeemed, followed by a thousand year earthly, national and ethnic kingdom of God; because of this they search the scriptures for signs, and look at the world to interpret these signs. Therefore all use of numbers pertaining to years or weeks, must find their literal application, and the years and weeks counted to try and pinpoint Christ's arrival. Even though the Bible is always using certain numbers as representative.

If someone presents their case and does not do so with this same literal numbering system, or does so pointing to the representation behind those numbers; and in doing so reach a conclusion that does not include the never proven idea of a rapture of the saints, followed by seven years in which God deals singularly with ethnic Israel, both judging and redeeming, to be followed by a thousand year ethnic/ national kingdom of God; if this happens, the accusations of spiritualizing and leaving out become the backbone of any further conversation.

Since you have so badly misrepresented what I have said and ignored great swaths of it I will summarize the Dan 9 prophecy according to what it is revealing to Daniel, and we have borne witness to---leaving out all the numbers, for it is in the numbers that the false doctrine of a 7 year tribulation are gestated and then born. Purely from what I said in the first paragraph of this post. And having done that, I will be done with this circular argument.

Exiled Israel returns to their land and rebuilds the temple and the city. The covenant is renewed but as the problem of sin has not actually been dealt with in that covenant (man is still sinful) life goes on per usual. Rebellion, wars, etc. But in due time the Messiah will appear on the scene, to conquer sin and death, so that an end to all transgression can be made. Not just in Israel or just for Israel, but all the world.

Jesus lives a perfectly righteous Iife, fulfilling all the requirements of the Mosaic covenant Law and all the righteousness in it. Then He lays down His life on the cross as a substitute for those God is giving Him (the elect of elect Israel, and the elect of the Gentiles (all nations)who God is giving Him ( the sheep of another pasture who will hear His voice and come to Him). He does this to take our just punishment, the just penalty of sin that came through Adam to all men, upon His own flesh to redeem us. In this He conquered sin and death. They were fully conquered then, in that one sacrificial act, proven by His resurrection, accepted in His ascension. His ascension was to His coronation as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. In judgment of Israel's rejection of their Messiah, and in the abomination of continuing the animal sacrifices in the temple after He has made the final and perfect sacrifice, the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed, ending a traceable line of Aaron and any possibility of future sacrifices. (The teaching that the Jew will rebuild a third temple, and this will be a sign of Christ's imminent return; and that after His return where He is said to be crowned King, the animal sacrifices are reinstated, is itself an abomination so great, I cannot fathom how anyone could give credence to it. I know the first time I read that in a verse note, in MacArthur's study Bible, I had to close the book, and not gently, and walk away. And that was before I even knew of dispensationalism. I was just learning the doctrines of TULIP and did not turn me away from them, but I lost my trust in MacArthur to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth.)

However, there are many more to be gathered than were gathered at the time of His crucifixion. It was only the beginning at Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out. This gathering will continue until the last one has come in, both Gentile and Jew. After the last Gentile has come in, there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on ethnic Israel, as God lifts the judgment and hardening, and a great influx of Jewish believers will be brought into the kingdom of God. And then Christ returns.

Because of this gathering that must continue, both salvation and the destruction of all sin and death, is held in a tension of right now, not yet. In the same as Abraham saw the promise from afar but did not see it manifest in his lifetime. Both are accomplished now by Christ's person and work, but both have a future fulfilment. (Most of OT prophecy works in this same way.)

The time between the two advents with the realization of the fulness of promise, is marked by tribulation, storms, earthquakes, wars, persecution of the church---all the things we see in Rev. and are told in Matt 24. This in amil is the millennial age. The thousand being representing here as in other places in Scripture, as a long indeterminate (to us) period of time until Christ returns. Not to set up an earthly kingdom in Israel, but the consummation of redemption for the whole of creation.The new heaven and the new earth, together. Our home ( the earth that God made for us) swept clean of all sin and evil, and God dwelling among us. That is the kingdom of heaven. Because Jesus is true Israel, that is, faithful Israel, who did all that Israel was intended to do, this fulfills every promise ever made to ethnic Israel. On the cross He "atoned for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness." He isn't doing that in the future. He has already done it. He is our King sitting on the throne of David for all eternity. Just as God was our King when He formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and placed him and Eve in the Garden of Eden to dwell with Him.

​

 

[Eleanor]

Where have I said that?

Because of the D'ist view end times prophecy as a rapture of the saints immediately prior to a seven year tribulation in which the unbelieving Jews are dealt with and redeemed, followed by a thousand year earthly, national and ethnic kingdom of God; because of this they search the scriptures for signs, and look at the world to interpret these signs. Therefore all use of numbers pertaining to years or weeks, must find their literal application, and the years and weeks counted to try and pinpoint Christ's arrival. Even though the Bible is always using certain numbers as representative.
If someone presents their case and does not do so with this same literal numbering system, or does so pointing to the representation behind those numbers; and in doing so reach a conclusion that does not include the never proven idea of a rapture of the saints, followed by seven years in which God deals singularly with ethnic Israel, both judging and redeeming, to be followed by a thousand year ethnic/ national kingdom of God; if this happens, the accusations of spiritualizing and leaving out become the backbone of any further conversation.
Since you have so badly misrepresented what I have said and ignored great swaths of it I will summarize the Dan 9 prophecy according to what it is revealing to Daniel, and we have borne witness to---leaving out all the numbers, for it is in the numbers that the false doctrine of a 7 year tribulation are gestated and then born. Purely from what I said in the first paragraph of this post. And having done that, I will be done with this circular argument.
Exiled Israel returns to their land and rebuilds the temple and the city. The covenant is renewed but as the problem of sin has not actually been dealt with in that covenant (man is still sinful) life goes on per usual. Rebellion, wars, etc. But in due time the Messiah will appear on the scene, to conquer sin and death, so that an end to all transgression can be made. Not just in Israel or just for Israel, but all the world.
Jesus lives a perfectly righteous Iife, fulfilling all the requirements of the Mosaic covenant Law and all the righteousness in it. Then He lays down His life on the cross as a substitute for those God is giving Him (the elect of elect Israel, and the elect of the Gentiles (all nations)who God is giving Him ( the sheep of another pasture who will hear His voice and come to Him). He does this to take our just punishment, the just penalty of sin that came through Adam to all men, upon His own flesh to redeem us. In this He conquered sin and death. They were fully conquered then, in that one sacrificial act, proven by His resurrection, accepted in His ascension. His ascension was to His coronation as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. In judgment of Israel's rejection of their Messiah, and in the abomination of continuing the animal sacrifices in the temple after He has made the final and perfect sacrifice, the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed, ending a traceable line of Aaron and any possibility of future sacrifices.

(The teaching that the Jew will rebuild a third temple, and this will be a sign of Christ's imminent return; and that after His return where He is said to be crowned King, the animal sacrifices are reinstated, is itself an abomination so great, I cannot fathom how anyone could give credence to it. I know the first time I read that in a verse note, in MacArthur's study Bible, I had to close the book, and not gently, and walk away. And that was before I even knew of dispensationalism. I was just learning the doctrines of TULIP and did not turn me away from them, but I lost my trust in MacArthur to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth.)

I likewise saw his understanding of prophecy as an egregious exception to his marvelous grasp of NT truth.

However, there are many more to be gathered than were gathered at the time of His crucifixion. It was only the beginning at Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out. This gathering will continue until the last one has come in, both Gentile and Jew. After the last Gentile has come in, there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on ethnic Israel, as God lifts the judgment and hardening, and a great influx of Jewish believers will be brought into the kingdom of God. And then Christ returns.

Because of this gathering that must continue, both salvation and the destruction of all sin and death, is held in a tension of right now, not yet. In the same as Abraham saw the promise from afar but did not see it manifest in his lifetime. Both are accomplished now by Christ's person and work, but both have a future fulfilment. (Most of OT prophecy works in this same way.)

The time between the two advents with the realization of the fulness of promise, is marked by tribulation, storms, earthquakes, wars, persecution of the church---all the things we see in Rev. and are told in Matt 24. This in amil is the millennial age. The thousand being representing here as in other places in Scripture, as a long indeterminate (to us) period of time until Christ returns. Not to set up an earthly kingdom in Israel, but the consummation of redemption for the whole of creation.The new heaven and the new earth, together. Our home ( the earth that God made for us) swept clean of all sin and evil, and God dwelling among us. That is the kingdom of heaven. Because Jesus is true Israel, that is, faithful Israel, who did all that Israel was intended to do, this fulfills every promise ever made to ethnic Israel. On the cross He "atoned for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness." He isn't doing that in the future. He has already done it. He is our King sitting on the throne of David for all eternity. Just as God was our King when He formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and placed him and Eve in the Garden of Eden to dwell with Him.

​

 

[Arial]

I likewise saw his understanding of prophecy as a serious exception to his marvelous grasp of NT truth.

Same here. And I have noticed it in other Calvinist dispensationalists. They have the truths of the NT right, and then there is this, what I call, a break in the consistency.

Is it because of, what I have been trying to drive home to @TMSO from the beginning, and that has never been addressed or even alluded to in his responses? That being, the story form Gen 3, with the curse on the serpent and the promise that a seed of the woman would crush his head, and he would bruise His heel, is centered on Christ the Redeemer, about Christ, about His work and accomplishment, and the end goal of redemption. That it plays out as though on a "stage" in the historical actions of God with humanity, with utter consistency and continuous forward flow, through Israel and the Sinai covenant to the first advent of Christ, when sin and death are conquered, and the promise of His second advent, when sin and death are destroyed. And not only is man redeemed from sin and the sin nature, but all of creation is redeemed from the affects of our sin.

The covenant of redemption is not only about man, and is never about only Israel. It is also about the earth, creation, the home that God created for us to live in. So that He might once again dwell among us, as it was meant to be.

 

[Eleanor]

Same here. And I have noticed it in other Calvinist dispensationalists. They have the truths of the NT right, and then there is this, what I call, a break in the consistency.

Is it because of, what I have been trying to drive home to @TMSO from the beginning, and that has never been addressed or even alluded to in his responses? That being, the story form Gen 3, with the curse on the serpent and the promise that a seed of the woman would crush his head, and he would bruise His heel, is centered on Christ the Redeemer, about Christ, about His work and accomplishment, and the end goal of redemption. That it plays out as though on a "stage" in the historical actions of God with humanity, with utter consistency and continuous forward flow, through Israel and the Sinai covenant to the first advent of Christ, when sin and death are conquered, and the promise of His second advent, when sin and death are destroyed. And not only is man redeemed from sin and the sin nature, but all of creation is redeemed from the affects of our sin.

The covenant of redemption is not only about man, and is never about only Israel. It is also about the earth, creation, the home that God created for us to live in. So that He might once again dwell among us, as it was meant to be.

Amen! . . .and to elaborate. . .

In reality, history is about the church (ekklesia--called-out assembly), all those redeemed in Christ, both OT (Ac 7:38) and NT.
It is the church (all God's people, OT and NT), the bride of Christ and the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) that is the center of God's plan, and not a future restoration of Israel.
It is the church, the new creation of God, that is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11, Eph 1:22-23), and not some future restoration of Israel apart from the church.

The whole NT teaches the church as God's singular purpose in history (Jn 10:16, Eph 1:22-23, 3:10-11, 1Co 10:11),
and as the continuation and fulfillment of the OT church (Ro 4:11, 11:13-24, 2Co 1:20, Eph 2:11-22, Php 3:3, 1Pe 2:9, Gal 3:29)
under a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34, Heb 11:15-18).
Note that in Ro 11:23 the conversion of Israel means grafting back into the one tree, with Christians; i.e., the church of vv.17-20.
Note that in Heb 12:22-23, "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the church (cf 11:39-40) are the OT saints.
Note that in Rev 21:9-14, Israel is included in the bride of the Lamb, the church.
There is no Biblical warrant for any future of Israel apart from and outside the church ("called-out assembly" of God' people).

And I would further point out that this notion of the Jews being God's chosen people distinct from the church is paving the way for a diminishment of the doctrine of Christ. We need only check our own thinking. What is it that captures the interest and attention of many--the working out of the excellency of God's plan in his new creation and bride of Christ, or the (supposed) working out of God's plan for a restoration of Israel?
Is it not the (supposed) sensational future of Israel?

Already, the (false) doctrine of Israel is captivating our minds to the diminishment of the doctrine of Christ and his church/bride of all believers. In another generation, we won't even realize that although, theologically we maintain the centrality of the doctrine of Christ and his church/bride, practically; i.e., in terms of our focus, attention, interest, conversation, anticipation, orientation, etc., the doctrine of Christ and his church/bride has become a stepsister to the (false) doctrine of Israel.

 

[TMSO]

What on earth are you referring to here? As to not naming names of future people, I refer you back to God naming Cyrus many, many years before he was born.

What does that have to do with our understanding of Revelation, which, I believe you also said is apocalyptic in nature, which means names aren't named. And, if it is future, to name names would be to undermine the whole purpose of Revelation. There is a reason why the second, visible, bodily return to Christ is always said to be imminent. It is our hope. He is coming. We can put up with the suffering for the imminent return of Christ. It could be tomorrow. If someone is like, hey guys, He isn't coming back for 2000 years... poof. There goes the hope. Let's get on with the sinning. We have plenty of time to mend our ways. He isn't coming back for 2000 yeas.

I don't deal in speculations as a platform for my beliefs. A person does not need to read signs to know that Christ is returning in judgement and consummation of the promise.

But the 70 weeks of Daniel is about a consummation for Israel through the Messiah. All those six things speak of an ending, and results of an ending. Which is why Apollinarius and Hippolytus believed what they did. Apollinarius connecting the end of the 70 weeks to Jesus second coming. Hippolytus being more dispensational and believing the 70th week was the time of the antichrist. This going back to the very early church. Granted, there was no such thing as amillennialism yet. And then I read someone who wasn't a dispensationalist who basically said that these two church fathers believed the 70 weeks were over. No sources given, just their belief. Even Irenaeus, though he didn't write about it directly, seemed to believe the 70th week was not over, and he was a disciple/student of Polycarp. I guess that is to be expected, since Polycarp, the disciple of the apostle John, was a premillennialist, as were Ignatius and Papias, Polycarp's students.

The Book tells us He is. And we don't need to know when. We know from the Book that He will return suddenly, like a thief in the night, implying unexpectedly, all watching and calculating of no avail. And every eye will see His return---hardly a secret arrival. What Jesus says is watch and be ready. He does not say there, watch for signs, but watch yourself---be ready. How do we be ready? By being in Him through faith---saved. How much more ready can we get? Other than being found living your life in way as is proper for a child of God.

There are signs for His second coming, read the Olivet discourse. There are NO signs given for the end of the age and the final judgment. The word in greek for the end when the disciples asked about the end, means the complete end. That is the end of Revelation 20 and into Revelation 21, which is when the old creation has passed away, and we enter the new.

As to what your scenario you present would do to someone's faith, read our Bible. Paul was dealing with a similar problem with the Thess church. And I want to point out to you, that throughout the time of the church, until this day, and until He returns, there have been times of localized persecutions of believers, great wars and catastrophes, etc. and the people living then, looking at signs, have always said, "This is It! Jesus is coming back any day now. The hope we have is in the promise given. Nothing can take us out of His hands. Nothing---not even our death. When we die we go to be with Him, and await the consummation, when our bodies will be resurrected as His was, and sin and death are dead, dead, dead, and all of creation made new and pure. And God dwells with us. The promise is our hope, and it is given to us in Scripture. How many years it will be before Christ returns is of no consequence whatsoever. That is one of the reason Revelation was written. To encourage the believer to stand firm and not lose hope, even in suffering.

It may not be of consequence to you, but there are a lot of immature believers out there. Especially in today's age, with all the arminians and such. Why else did Peter have to write in his epistle that God isn't being slack in His promise to return? Why did he take the time to justify that Jesus had not returned yet? To encourage them to understand that immenent didn't mean now, it meant soon. And it is ALWAYS soon, when one doesn't know when.

 

[TMSO]

A travesty? Hurt to read in the Spirit? Maybe you weren't reading it in the Spirit.

Well, it is true that I didn't spiritualize it.

And it does not throw away sections of what God said. When will people recognize that when they say things like that, they are really saying that they are only able to look at opposing opinions, through the one lens they have.

Then where did the section go that says that the city and sanctuary will be destroyed before the last week? What did the writer say? Though the sacrificial system did not end when Jesus died, but officially didn't end until the temple was destroyed, the sacrificial had actually ended with Jesus. Completely ignoring the fact that the destruction of the city and the temple are right there in the prophecy. He just completely ignored it.

So of course it looks like a travesty and hurts to read. It shows, no honest interest in investigating whether or not it is legitimate. They have already decided it isn't.

If he hadn't ignored portions of the passage, I would have been more interested.

As a result, they are unable to really understand what the other person is saying. That is evident when it is repeated back, all wrong. There is no honest interest in listening and learning. As though if they learned it would be the same thing as agreeing and that there would be no more room for such wild accusations and assessments as given in your post. It is disingenuous, especially on a forum, and always leads to dead ends of hurt feelings. bickering, arguing. So I won't go on much longer. The fact that you could not properly understand what you read in someone else's writing, demonstrates that you have paid no more close and honest attention to anything I have said either. And won't.

So I should spiritualize what he wrote?

Try reading it again.

Let's just say it took me a few hours to write the comment because I was continually reading it, and revising what I wrote. I threw it out and restarted about 5 times. However, you too seem to miss this part of the prophecy:
"26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the [ab]Messiah will be cut off and have [ac]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [ad]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [ae]there will be war; desolations are determined."
All of that is part of the prophecy. But that is 5 weeks worth of events that are not accounted for in the 70 weeks. How do we know? Because the "prince" is a part of the prophecy, and here it says that the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Why is this part of the prophecy completely ignored?

Yes, they are. Try again.

If you mean by his misinterpretation, then perhaps. However, ending the trangression between God and Israel is NOT a negative. Allowing it to go on would be a negative. Bringing an end to sin (if you look up the word used for end, it does not mean to seal up, it means to end) is not a negative, but a positive. Why would we want sin to continue? That is somehow a positive thing? And making an atonement for guilt is very positive. We need that. So, please, how are these things negative, when they are thing that Israel, specifically Daniel here, wanted and needed. God is saying that after the 70 weeks, the exile, the persecution, the tribulation will be over because the transgression will be ended. That is a positive.

Yes you do have to keep his prayer in view, and you are not doing so. The transgression was the thing that got them exiled. And that was a prolonged combination of transgressions.

Don't summarize the prayer, or you miss the fact that Daniel is clear that this goes all the way back to Moses. The transgression is the rebellion/rejecting of God. But God doesn't speak just to THE transgression, but also to sin. The actions taken by Israel in their rebellion.

But as this prophecy moves forward through time it looks to the first coming of the Redeemer when that end of transgression is dealt with on a permanent basis. That is what is taking place in the entirety of the prophecy, The coming of Christ, and what He accomplishes in His life, death, resurrection, ascension. Jesus did that work. No other work needs to be done to accomplish what we see in His first advent. What goes beyond that is not more work being done, but the consummation to arriver---His second coming. Please try to hear that this time.

The transgression has not yet ended. Israel is still in rebellion against God. They rejected the Messiah, and thus the transgression and sin continued.

You have inserted something into that prophecy that simply is not there. A seven year tribulation dealing with Israel, followed by a thousand year national Israel with Christ as the sitting King. God has always been Israel's king, and not only Israel, but EVERYONE. The fact that we are all rebellious subjects, with the axe of judgment hanging over our heads, but for grace and the person and work of Jesus, does not mean that God is not King of kings and Lord of lords.

I have not inserted a seven year tribulation. I said the GREAT TRIBULATION is the last 3 1/2 years, which agrees with those church fathers who believe the 70th week had not yet happened. The seven year tribulation is from believers who believe that the tribulation is persecution against the church.

 

[TMSO]

All the promises to Israel have been fufilled:
1) possession of the land (Josh 23;14, 21:43)
2) occupation of the land (1 Kgs 4:1, 24-25)
3) everlasting possession (Heb 11:10-16)
4) return to the land (under Ezra, Nehemiah), where they rebuilt the wall, the temple and rededicated themselves to God with great rejoicing that could be heard from afar

The only remaining promise to, as well as destiny of, Israel is their grafting back into the one olive tree of God's people, IF they do not persist in unbelief (Heb 11:23).

But we now have another return to the land, following the diaspora, which is a continuation of the exile of Israel. This time for rejecting the Messiah. They returned to the land again in 1948. And, they are on the cusp of rebuilding the temple, the third temple. They have already recreated all the implements necessary, and have also bought the red heifers needed to purify all who come to the temple mount. They have the money to do it, and everything. There is the possibility that it could happen at any time. If it does, then one has to consider that the 70th week is about the Antichrist. One who comes veiled in peace (bow in hand, but no arrows or quiver), who then is unveiled at the latter half of the week. Isaiah has been used to explain the gathering of the Jews back into Israel in 1948. I don't remember the passage off the top of my head.

 

[TMSO]

Same here. And I have noticed it in other Calvinist dispensationalists. They have the truths of the NT right, and then there is this, what I call, a break in the consistency.

Is it because of, what I have been trying to drive home to @TMSO from the beginning, and that has never been addressed or even alluded to in his responses? That being, the story form Gen 3, with the curse on the serpent and the promise that a seed of the woman would crush his head, and he would bruise His heel, is centered on Christ the Redeemer, about Christ, about His work and accomplishment, and the end goal of redemption. That it plays out as though on a "stage" in the historical actions of God with humanity, with utter consistency and continuous forward flow, through Israel and the Sinai covenant to the first advent of Christ, when sin and death are conquered, and the promise of His second advent, when sin and death are destroyed. And not only is man redeemed from sin and the sin nature, but all of creation is redeemed from the affects of our sin.

The covenant of redemption is not only about man, and is never about only Israel. It is also about the earth, creation, the home that God created for us to live in. So that He might once again dwell among us, as it was meant to be.

I want you to notice something. I have not been the one bringing up the rapture. Why? It isn't that important. Just, as I said a few times, understand that it is given as a method by which God will shield the church from the wrath He directs at Satan and his kingdom. (The beast, his image, and his kingdom). There may be another way. Some church fathers did present some, but I haven't gone back to read what those might be.

There is one plan of redemption. One way to salvation. This is completely unaffected by my eschatology. Just understand that even Paul says that God's plans for Israel are a mystery, so he wrote to inform.

Romans 11
"25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is [k]My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”"

This does not speak to some secret, hidden removal of sins. It speaks to...the removal of their sins. Note that "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", the coming in is the present perfect tense. The action is completed in the present, not to continue. Israel will be saved is the future tense, and with "and so all" means it is the next thing to happen after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. It is the result of the fullness of the Gentiles coming in, which is in keeping with rest of Romans 11.

Just consider Zechariah 12 for a moment:
"6 “On that day I will make the [e]clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while [f]the inhabitants of Jerusalem again live on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be greater than Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who [g]is feeble among them on that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[possibly spiritualizing, but it sounds like it is saying that Jesus is before them in this battle, since angel of the LORD in the Old Testament refers to Jesus. This would also mean that it is saying Jesus is God... but again, that may be special pleading here.]

Now notice this part:
"10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem [h]the Spirit of grace and of pleading, so that they will look at Me whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him, like one mourning for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [i]plain of [j]Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that are left, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves."

This sounds like they are being regenerated by God, recognizing who He is, and being saved by faith, just like everyone else. This is also in keeping with Matthew 24
"37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”"

That is, not until they recognize their Messiah and King. (Since that statement they will say recognizes their King.) They will not see Him again until He is unveiled and they recognize Him as King. (The verses in Matthew comes quite a few chapters after the triumphal entry. So basically, while they said this then, with His teachings and actions in Jerusalem, they ultimately rejected Him. The Jewish religious leaders make this plain when they tried to force the guards to remove the sign "King of the Jews" from Jesus' cross. They had rejected Him.

[I made it too long again... sorry.]

 

[Arial]

The transgression has not yet ended. Israel is still in rebellion against God. They rejected the Messiah, and thus the transgression and sin continued.

Hmmmm. That must mean the fullness of the Gentiles has not come in.

 

[Tambora]

Jesus told us what the Great Tribulation would be. There would be no match for it, or anything greater prior to the great tribulation, and nothing after that would be greater.
And this great tribulation would be so great that if it wasn't shortened, Earth would have a population of ZERO, according to Jesus. There would be no flesh left on Earth. Can you think of any event like that? Not even the holocaust, which is considered one of the worst things humanity has done to itself, comes close to what Jesus is talking about. Not WW I. Not WW II. Not even the civil war which had the highest casualties of any war in American history.

Hard to see how it could be worse than the flood.
I do find it interesting that the destruction of the world is said to be by water and then by fire, and that the abys (the deep) is also described sometimes as water and sometimes as fire.

And if the great tribulation has to be shortened to save anyone, then the great tribulation would be less than the 7 years or the 3 1/2 years that some like to propose it is.
Which would also mean that the last week of Daniel's 70 week prophesy cannot be a full week decreed upon his people.
Now what?

 

[Tambora]

Because the Bible speaks of an ultimate gathering in of the Jews at the end of time,

Not without Gentiles also. They both come to Zion to worship the Lord.

 

[Arial]

Yes. And Jesus is crucified (cut off) after the 62 weeks. Not at the beginning of or during the 70th week. And then after he is cut off, still just after the 62 weeks (and 7), the city and the sanctuary are destroyed. So that means that from the time the Messiah is cut off, until the time the city and sanctuary are destroyed, all after the 62 weeks

Did it ever occur to you that the use of numbers and weeks here meant something to Daniel, who was a Prophet, that it does not mean to us? Or did you ever consider the possibility that it was given to Daniel to understand, as Gabriel said, and for God's purposes, but not for us to fully comprehend? (The numbers themselves.) We have the whole story as it played out, in our NT. The only reason the numbers take on such central importance in some, is because they do not understand the prophecy. And they don't see the work of Christ in His earthly ministry, as complete.

A completely manufactured eschatology is superimposed over the prophecy. One that reads the prophecy---and most of prophecy---and says the Dan 9 prophecy cannot be fulfilled in Christ's first coming, because unless God does something beyond that for ethnic Israel, He does not keep His promises to ethnic Israel. And therefore a gap theory is inserted into the prophecy in order to have God fulfilling His promises to Israel in the only way, that He can, according to this theory. It says there is only one way that God can save "all Israel", and that is through the way that the theory says He does it. It forgets (if one is Calvinist)that no one is ever saved but by the grace of God in regeneration. (Which is true according to Scripture whether one is Calvinist/Reformed or not.) But I think you are Calvinist, though I am not sure where and how I got that impression. If I am mistaken, my apologies. It forgets that all God needs to do in order to bring anyone into the covenant of redemption, is open blind eyes and deaf ears to hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. And in the case of Israel, remove their hardness of heart that was a judgment while the Gentiles were brought in, the judgment complete.

In doing this, in attempting to calculate a date or time of Christ's return and the earthly thousand year reign of Christ in restored ethnic Israel, and the signs to watch for that precede a great tribulation period, (one they also profess to escape anyway, so why try and figure out when it will be); in counting the numbers to ascertain all these things, are they not looking into the things of God that He has specifically told us, that no one can know? Is it not enough to rest in what He has told us? Must we try and find in our own minds what He has not told us? If He has not told us, our minds will never find the answer. What is likely to happen, and in fact has happened, is telling God how He must do things, and a belief that He can only do them and keep His promises in that way. And then, sadly, preaching it as fact and truth.

 

[Eleanor]

But we now have another return to the land, following the diaspora,

The promises were to believing (true) Israel, of which there is only a remnant to this day.
Only they benefit from the promises, which have been fulfilled--land, everlasting possession (heavenly land), return from exile--including the Messiah.

which is a continuation of the exile of Israel.

Israel returned from the exile under Nehemiah and Ezra, rebuilt the wall, the temple and rededicated themselves to God again.
No promise of return remains, for it has been fulfilled.

The taking of land in 1948 is not another fulfillment of the promise of return.
According to apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, only one promise now remains. . .to graft them back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:16-23).

That is apostolic teaching, not personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) subject to more than one interpretation.

 

[TMSO]

Hmmmm. That must mean the fullness of the Gentiles has not come in.

That is what I believe. Which means there is still a great gathering of the Jews to come in the future. And by that, I mean the remnant of Israel, not Jews at the individual level, who are being saved even now, at the individual level. The blindness/hardness is only partial. (I really love the plan, and would love to see it finally come together. It shows how truly awesome God is, and how little we truly comprehend of the depth of who God is. The church and humanity have written off the Jews, because, I mean, who would want to keep dealing with them after what they have done. God... that's who. He isn't like us. His plan is really deep.)

The 70 weeks are all about Israel. I believe that two of the three ways (there may be more) are the more correct way to view it. The 70th week is over, I feel, is incorrect. And yes, I do believe it is related to Christ, though the focus is as God said, on Daniel's people (Israel/Judah) and the holy city. Why? Again, the six results affect those groups. The two other possibilities from Apollinarius and Hypolitus (spealling may be wrong on both) is 1. The 70 weeks include BOTH the first coming and the second coming of Christ, with the 70th week ending with Christ's second coming. I can get behind that. The other, 2. they 70th week is the week of the Antichrist, and ends at his destruction. I think I have said enough to say I prefer a merging of the two, with the 70th week beginning with a veiled antichrist, then the unveiling of the antichrist and beginning of the Great Tribulation (half way through the week), and then Jesus second coming where He destroys the antichrist and rescues Judah/Israel/Jerusalem. At that time is His coronation as the King of Israel in the seat of David at Jerusalem, in fulfillment of OT prophecy. (And the final answer to the disciples question, will you now return the Kingdom to Israel.)

 

[TMSO]

Not without Gentiles also. They both come to Zion to worship the Lord.

You are not understanding. The time of the Gentiles is now. The focus is on the Gentiles. Individuals are being saved of the Jews, but the nation of Israel, that is the remnant of God's elect within, will remain in partial blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. At that time, the remnant of the Nation of Israel, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, will finally be gathered back into the fold. The Gentiles are already there at that point.

 

[TMSO]

Did it ever occur to you that the use of numbers and weeks here meant something to Daniel, who was a Prophet, that it does not mean to us?

It occurred to me that it may not. However, I am surprised you don't realize that ALL of this meant something to Daniel. God had just told him, with a decree, that Israel will be saved. And that 70 weeks have been decreed for this to happen. It doesn't mean the same thing to us. We have not spent time pleading for Israel as Daniel had. We can truly have no idea what Daniel felt after hearing that God had not given Israel over to trouble and will just leave them there.

Or did you ever consider the possibility that it was given to Daniel to understand, as Gabriel said, and for God's purposes, but not for us to fully comprehend? (The numbers themselves.) We have the whole story as it played out, in our NT. The only reason the numbers take on such central importance in some, is because they do not understand the prophecy. And they don't see the work of Christ in His earthly ministry, as complete.

I don't think we can truly understand the numbers, but I think we can understand more if we take the conclusion into account. For instance, as in the last comment (so I will keep this short), I believe the 70th week is delayed specifically due to the rejection of the Messiah by Israel. The 70th week has always been imminent, and ends at Jesus second coming, when Israel finally receives their Messiah King. That time between the end of the 69th week, and the beginning of the end at the start of the 70th week, is the times of the Gentiles, where the focus has shifted. Not totally (only partial blindness) but enough that the time has paused. The 70th week will be the last time where Satan will try to undo all that God has done, and Jesus will return and destroy Satan's work wrought through the Antichrist.

A completely manufactured eschatology is superimposed over the prophecy. One that reads the prophecy---and most of prophecy---and says the Dan 9 prophecy cannot be fulfilled in Christ's first coming, because unless God does something beyond that for ethnic Israel, He does not keep His promises to ethnic Israel. And therefore a gap theory is inserted into the prophecy in order to have God fulfilling His promises to Israel in the only way, that He can, according to this theory. It says there is only one way that God can save "all Israel", and that is through the way that the theory says He does it. It forgets (if one is Calvinist)that no one is ever saved but by the grace of God in regeneration.

What part of God sending a spirit of GRACE and SUPPLICATION is not found in regeneration? Are you saying Saul wasn't saved on the road to Damascus by Jesus personally? I mean Zechariah 12 reads almost like that. Those who remain are broken when they see and recognize Christ. Why? God revealed it to them. Didn't Jesus say that something like that does not come from the flesh, but from the Father? Didn't Paul say that we are taught by the Father? Did you read the passage from Zechariah?

(Which is true according to Scripture whether one is Calvinist/Reformed or not.) But I think you are Calvinist, though I am not sure where and how I got that impression. If I am mistaken, my apologies. It forgets that all God needs to do in order to bring anyone into the covenant of redemption, is open blind eyes and deaf ears to hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. And in the case of Israel, remove their hardness of heart that was a judgment while the Gentiles were brought in, the judgment complete.

I am not a calvinist in name, because labels are restricting. I am calvinistic. And the redemption of the nation of Israel at the end, in a way you seem to deny, was determined by God before the foundation of the world. The 70 weeks are not completed with Christ's first coming, but are completed at His second coming, when Israel receives their Messiah King, with open heart and mind. And are completely broken.

In doing this, in attempting to calculate a date or time of Christ's return and the earthly thousand year reign of Christ in restored ethnic Israel, and the signs to watch for that precede a great tribulation period, (one they also profess to escape anyway, so why try and figure out when it will be); in counting the numbers to ascertain all these things, are they not looking into the things of God that He has specifically told us, that no one can know? Is it not enough to rest in what He has told us? Must we try and find in our own minds what He has not told us? If He has not told us, our minds will never find the answer. What is likely to happen, and in fact has happened, is telling God how He must do things, and a belief that He can only do them and keep His promises in that way. And then, sadly, preaching it as fact and truth.

I do not, though I hold things in consideration. I do this mostly to remind myself that it is prophecy that has not happened yet, keep watch for His return draweth nigh. It might surprise you to know that while I have some set positions, I'm not actually a hardliner. I don't believe we can pin a date, or be sure, but I do believe that as watchmen, we can see the sunrise and possibly recognize the coming of the season. The only one we can be sure of, however, will be when the Great Tribulation gets here. That part Jesus made clear.

 

[TMSO]

@Arial

I meant it when I said I am no hardliner. I have decided that futurist premillennialism is the most probable view. I still consider preterism a heresy. Amillennialism (historic) is not. Amillennialsm partial preterist is walking a very tight line, and I believe it has no biblical support. The only views worthy of any consideration are the original amillennial view (I believe), and futurist premillennial view, since we are in the future. (Obviously). I will be honest that until recently, I didn't know really anything about Darby. I have learned more about my belief reading the early church fathers, then I have from modern writers. Until recently, I never considered that the temple might be rebuilt during the 70th week. No one talked about that. The main views I heard was that the temple had to be rebuilt first. However, it could be with the strengthening of the covenant, that the temple may be rebuilt, and it is with the support of the antichrist. Once they are done rebuilding, and restarting the sacrificial system, the antichrist is unveiled and he declares himself to be god, in the middle of God's temple, and desecrates it. He puts an end to all other religions, to include Judaism, and demands/commands only the worship of himself. (Speaking of coming on the wings of abomination...)

You will probably never change my mind, but I only seek to have you consider possibilities. I apologize if it is too strong at times, but the only thing I am a hardliner on is the final gathering in of Israel, and how that will happen. That's it. And I truly believe it is the fulfillment of Zechariah.

 

[Arial]

What part of God sending a spirit of GRACE and SUPPLICATION is not found in regeneration? Are you saying Saul wasn't saved on the road to Damascus by Jesus personally? I mean Zechariah 12 reads almost like that. Those who remain are broken when they see and recognize Christ. Why? God revealed it to them. Didn't Jesus say that something like that does not come from the flesh, but from the Father? Didn't Paul say that we are taught by the Father? Did you read the passage from Zechariah?

I amazed how often what I say is repeated back to me as exactly, precisely, the opposite of what I had said.

The 70 weeks are not completed with Christ's first coming, but are completed at His second coming, when Israel receives their Messiah King, with open heart and mind. And are completely broken.

I am sick of this repetition of
seventy weeks, seventy weeks, seventy this,seventy that.

It is so deeply imbedded in interpreting and so encased by a presupposition that national Israel must return to the land as national, ruling Israel, with Jesus as THEIR King, that it cannot understand what is said outside of it.

I wonder if I say it one last time, it will penetrate.

Forget about seventy weeks for one blasted second, not to change your view, but so you can understand what I am saying. In His first coming, Christ completed the work necessary for the future full redemption, the restoration of all things.

Until He returns we are in a right now, not yet, tension. There is no need for a thousand year reign of Christ and a restored national Israel, no need for for a seven year tribulation to end the hardening of Israel, no need for a rapture of the saints, pre or mid (especially if there is no seven year trib that creates a pre and a mid, in order for Christ to already have accomplished the work necessary to fulfill all of prophecy, and all the promises made to Israel, in Him, not in a reigning national Israel.

Read how the writers of the NT epistles, interpret Israel and the promises made to Israel. And notice they never speak of a thousand year earthly reign of Christ, or a rebuilt temple, or a return to the animal sacrifices, or seven years of tribulation. So why do you think that is what John is suddenly doing in the letter Revelation?

 

[Eleanor]

I amazed how often what I say is repeated back to me as exactly, precisely, the opposite of what I had said.
I am sick of this repetition of
seventy weeks, seventy weeks, seventy this, seventy that.
It is so deeply imbedded in interpreting and so encased by a presupposition that national Israel must return to the land as national, ruling Israel, with Jesus as THEIR King, that it cannot understand what is said outside of it.
I wonder if I say it one last time, it will penetrate.
Forget about seventy weeks for one blasted second, not to change your view, but so you can understand what I am saying. In His first coming, Christ completed the work necessary for the future full redemption, the restoration of all things.

Until He returns we are in a right now, not yet, tension. There is no need for a thousand year reign of Christ and a restored national Israel, no need for for a seven year tribulation to end the hardening of Israel, no need for a rapture of the saints, pre or mid (especially if there is no seven year trib that creates a pre and a mid, in order for Christ to already have accomplished the work necessary to fulfill all of prophecy, and all the promises made to Israel, in Him, not in a reigning national Israel.
Read how the writers of the NT epistles, interpret Israel and the promises made to Israel. And notice they never speak of a thousand year earthly reign of Christ, or a rebuilt temple, or a return to the animal sacrifices, or seven years of tribulation. So why do you think that is what John is suddenly doing in the letter Revelation?

AMEN! . . .they try to improve upon apostolic teaching.

Israel returned from the exile under Nehemiah and Ezra, rebuilt the wall, the temple and rededicated themselves to God again.
No promise of return remains, for it has been fulfilled.

The taking of land in 1948 is not another fulfillment of the promise of return.
According to apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, only one promise now remains. . .to graft them back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:16-23).

That is apostolic teaching, not personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) subject to more than one interpretation.