The Deity of Christ

[Arial]

In what sense did "Jesus took my (and our) place". We still suffer and die.

The believer is identified with Christ in his death and resurrection because he is standing in their place, bearing the penalty of their sin on his own body and facing their death. Because he had no sin of his own, he is raised again to life with a glorified body. This is the same thing that will happen for the believer. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection of the dead. Paul discusses this in great detail in 1 Cor 15, the whole chapter, and I strongly suggest that you read it.

In Romans 8 we learn that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Which begins with the word "therefore" so the therefore of the previous chapters should be also considered.

By bearing upon himself what we deserved and he did not deserve (substitute) he not only made a way for mercy, but he conquered sin and death. This conquering is crucial to the entire redemption and is meaningless without it. Our flesh will still die unless we are still alive when he returns, but because of our position before God as justified through faith in Christ, the grave can no more hold the believer than it could hold our Redeemer. That is how closely the believer is in union with Christ. It is a right now/ not yet situation, while the Shepherd is gathering all his sheep to himself through the preaching of the gospel.

Did God really consider Jesus to be a sinner?

No. That is not what substitution means.

Did God expend the wrath, that He has against sin, upon Jesus?

Yes, but it was against sin, not Jesus. That is why Jesus came. A creature does not have enough of anything to conquer sin and death. It is the body of Jesus, in the likeness of sinful humanity, that dies in our place, and rises again as the first fruits of the resurrection. Jesus did not come only to redeem. He came to conquer, and conquer he did.

Perhaps the following may not fit, but an example of substitution is if we had a school class of say 30 students. A particular rebel in the class threw something at the teacher when the teacher turned his back to write something on the blackboard. The teacher turned and picked on the nicest child in the class, and demands he come forward, and gives him six stokes of the cane. The teacher then proclaims: "Justice has been done".

You are right in saying it does not fit. It is a completely humanistic view of God and redemption. But then, one would expect no less from a teaching that says the Savior is a creature.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Arial and CrowCross,

Well, like I said, I can't reveal anything to you. That is in the realm of God, not humans. I have said enough.

Fair enough.

Your church has told you about the second death? The place Christ died for you...in your place...on the cross so you don't have to go there when you die?
.....what church did you say you went to?

I have mentioned my "church" or denomination in my avatar, and many of us prefer our own invention "Ecclesia" to get closer to the concept of an assembly of believers who have responded to the call of the Gospel, rather than a building or denomination. We are different in some beliefs to most churches, in that we believe in the mortality of man, in One God the Father and that Jesus is a human, the Son of God, and the 1000 year Kingdom of God upon the earth when Jesus returns and rules from literal Jerusalem over a significant remnant of the nation of Israel converted, and the nations subjected and learning the ways of God. These basic doctrines and a few others affect how we view the Atonement and even the Second Death. I could elaborate if you want, but this is a bit off topic.

Absolutely. Finish the verse, My God, My God why have you___________________. Do you think Jesus was pretending when He died for you?

Perhaps I could suggest another alternative, but Psalm 22 must be considered as a whole and some of the language and ideas used in the Psalms. I believe that Jesus died for you and me, on our behalf, not instead of us. A representative, not a substitute. We become united in his death and resurrection through belief of the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and water baptism Acts 8:5-6,12 and at the Judgement Seat granted everlasting life and a place in the future Kingdom. The Second Death is a different subject. Jesus died to save us out of death, the First Death.
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

By bearing upon himself what we deserved and he did not deserve (substitute) he not only made a way for mercy, but he conquered sin and death.

One reason I do not accept Jesus as a Substitute is that the OT prepares the way by showing many examples of the faithful suffering, and these are a pattern to teach the reason for the sufferings of Jesus. To name a few, Abel, Jacob, Joseph, Job, David, Hezekiah. Many of the OT passages use the records of these as a framework in order to understand the sufferings of Jesus. The suffering of these faithful was not evidence of the wrath of God, but a process necessary for the outworking of His purpose.

You are right in saying it does not fit. It is a completely humanistic view of God and redemption. But then, one would expect no less from a teaching that says the Savior is a creature.

I suggest that many words are used to soften the harshness of this concept, but nevertheless Substitution does not reveal the Righteousness of God Romans 1:16-17, 3:25-26. Jesus is the Saviour, the Son of God, the human vessel specially prepared by God to accomplish the work of Salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

I believe that Jesus died for you and me, on our behalf, not instead of us.

Jesus dyeing on our behalf is substitutional atonement.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Jesus dying on our behalf is substitutional atonement.

Galatians 5:24 (KJV): And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Galatians 5:24 (KJV): And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Kind regards
Trevor

????? So, you hung on a cross and died?

OK, whatever you say.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CrowCross,

????? So, you hung on a cross and died?

How do you understand Paul's words? Perhaps this is a major feature of our difference on The Atonement, and what Jesus actually accomplished. He crucified the flesh, his own flesh, the same flesh that he inherited as a descendant of Adam. He is our example, and our representative, not our substitute.

Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (or Sin's flesh), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Kind regards
Trevor