THE ANGELS THAT SINNED

[CrowCross]

I put the angelic rebellion in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
God’s angry response is what rendered the earth “without form and void with darkness on the face of the deep.”
There is nowhere else this passage of Scripture could fit:

Jeremiah 4:24–26 (KJV 1900): 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

“There was no man” meaning there was no Adam.

That sounds more like the coming destruction of Judah.

I put the rebellion after the 7 day creation period as the bible tells us Satan was in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.
Couple that with the creation being "very good"....kinda disqualifies your theory.

Eze 28

‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God.....

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

 

[CrowCross]

I put the angelic rebellion in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
God’s angry response is what rendered the earth “without form and void with darkness on the face of the deep.”
There is nowhere else this passage of Scripture could fit:

Jeremiah 4:24–26 (KJV 1900): 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

“There was no man” meaning there was no Adam.

2nd reply....I know there are some that use this verse to point to a pre-Adamic world. Recently I have been looking into it but have not really found any biblical justification for the gap Theory.

Is there other verses you know of?

 

[makesends]

That sounds more like the coming destruction of Judah.

I put the rebellion after the 7 day creation period as the bible tells us Satan was in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.
Couple that with the creation being "very good"....kinda disqualifies your theory.

Eze 28

‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God.....

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

Not to agree nor to contend with either of you, but on what do you base the notion that Satan was in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state? —I'm just curious.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That sounds more like the coming destruction of Judah.

That may sound like it but there were people populating the cities. Scripture says there was no man (Adam) in these cities. So, your presumption doesn't fit.

24 Behold, the LORD cmaketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Is 24.

Did God turn the world 'upside down' when He destroyed Judah as you say?
No. This can only apply to God destroying the planet between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 in fierce anger.
Then came the re-creation for His Plan of Man.

I put the rebellion after the 7 day creation period as the bible tells us Satan was in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.

Who was in an unfallen state?
Both these 'fallen' angels and man were created sin-ful which is why they sinned for sin comes from sinner.

Couple that with the creation being "very good"....kinda disqualifies your theory.

God declaring His creative acts as "good" does not mean 'morally' good, but "good enough" or "to specification."
You ever cook? When done and you taste the result don't you say, "that's good?" You don't mean "morally good," but your recipe is "good enough" or "to specification."

Eze 28

‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God.....

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

The Hebrew word "guardian" in your translation does not mean that according to the Hebrew. It means "outstretched," and it's translated "anointed," which is a misnomer.

 

[CrowCross]

Not to agree nor to contend with either of you, but on what do you base the notion that Satan was in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state? —I'm just curious.

The description of Satan while in the Garden:

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

Every kind of precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz, and diamond,

beryl, onyx, and jasper,

sapphire, turquoise, and emerald.

Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,

prepared on the day of your creation.

To add to that God said the creation was very good...which sounds like Satan hadn't fallen yet....or else God would not have called the creation very good.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The description of Satan while in the Garden:

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

Every kind of precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz, and diamond,

beryl, onyx, and jasper,

sapphire, turquoise, and emerald.

Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,

prepared on the day of your creation.

To add to that God said the creation was very good...which sounds like Satan hadn't fallen yet....or else God would not have called the creation very good.

OK. But does it say he tempted the woman at this time?
There is no mention this happen.
You're supposing that the serpent in the Garden of God was Lucifer.
But that can't be if the angels that sinned were reserved in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.
This would include Lucifer. So, who or what is this 'serpent' in Eden?
It also says that sin was found in him. It doesn't say he sinned.

 

[makesends]

That may sound like it but there were people populating the cities. Scripture says there was no man (Adam) in these cities. So, your presumption doesn't fit.

24 Behold, the LORD cmaketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Is 24.

Did God turn the world 'upside down' when He destroyed Judah as you say?
No. This can only apply to God destroying the planet between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 in fierce anger.
Then came the re-creation for His Plan of Man.

Who was in an unfallen state?
Both these 'fallen' angels and man were created sin-ful which is why they sinned for sin comes from sinner.

God declaring His creative acts as "good" does not mean 'morally' good, but "good enough" or "to specification."
You ever cook? When done and you taste the result don't you say, "that's good?" You don't mean "morally good," but your recipe is "good enough" or "to specification."

The Hebrew word "guardian" in your translation does not mean that according to the Hebrew. It means "outstretched," and it's translated "anointed," which is a misnomer.

Ha! I like that —"to specification"! I might use that, with your permission. Very good!

Reminds me of an uncle of mine saying that physical, material, inanimate, things are neutral; but I say, nope, they are good!

 

[makesends]

The description of Satan while in the Garden:

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

Every kind of precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz, and diamond,

beryl, onyx, and jasper,

sapphire, turquoise, and emerald.

Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,

prepared on the day of your creation.

To add to that God said the creation was very good...which sounds like Satan hadn't fallen yet....or else God would not have called the creation very good.

Doesn't sound like it to me. There was, "in the beginning", substance, chaotic though it be, before the order of the 'universe' (I suppose) and earth. Just when Satan fell, I don't know, but we do know he opposed God when he tempted Eve. We also know that even today, he can appear as an angel of light.

I'm guessing the creation of the angels of Heaven was not part of the Genesis 1 account of the creation of the Heavens and the Earth. And the serpent certainly, at the point of the temptation, was no innocent creature.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Ha! I like that —"to specification"! I might use that, with your permission. Very good!

Reminds me of an uncle of mine saying that physical, material, inanimate, things are neutral; but I say, nope, they are good!

Just defining the Hebrew word as written.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Doesn't sound like it to me. There was, "in the beginning", substance, chaotic though it be, before the order of the 'universe' (I suppose) and earth. Just when Satan fell, I don't know, but we do know he opposed God when he tempted Eve. We also know that even today, he can appear as an angel of light.

I'm guessing the creation of the angels of Heaven was not part of the Genesis 1 account of the creation of the Heavens and the Earth. And the serpent certainly, at the point of the temptation, was no innocent creature.

Satan? Oh, you mean Lucifer.
Lucifer didn't fall.
Sin was found in him before any fall.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Ha! I like that —"to specification"! I might use that, with your permission. Very good!

Reminds me of an uncle of mine saying that physical, material, inanimate, things are neutral; but I say, nope, they are good!

Many Christians think the word "good" means "morally good," but it doesn't. That's another word and it's not found in the Genesis creation.
So, the beasts of the earth, the herbs, the insects are not "morally good" but created "good enough" or "to specification" as per the desire of God's plan.
Capeesh?

 

[CrowCross]

Doesn't sound like it to me. There was, "in the beginning", substance, chaotic though it be, before the order of the 'universe' (I suppose) and earth. Just when Satan fell, I don't know, but we do know he opposed God when he tempted Eve. We also know that even today, he can appear as an angel of light.

I'm guessing the creation of the angels of Heaven was not part of the Genesis 1 account of the creation of the Heavens and the Earth. And the serpent certainly, at the point of the temptation, was no innocent creature.

Well, we do know Satan walked in Eden in an un-fallen state as shown in the verse provided in my previous post.

The bible also mentions that Satan was a created being. When? It's unknown when the angels were created. We do know they watch God create per Job 38.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well, we do know Satan walked in Eden in an un-fallen state as shown in the verse provided in my previous post.

The bible also mentions that Satan was a created being. When? It's unknown when the angels were created. We do know they watch God create per Job 38.

If the serpent is Lucifer/Satan and his purpose was to tempt the woman how can that mindset be an 'unfallen' state?
It can't.
To want to make the woman sin (when she was already a sinner) cannot be an 'unfallen' state as you suppose.
To be in the Garden of Eden BEFORE sin was found in him was his ministry.
From here we can only deduce that it was in this ministry to "anointed/outstretched" the Garden of God (Eden) that he thought in his mind to ascend from this first estate into the heavens (second heaven - the stars and planets) and to become like God. But it was only a thought he never had the chance to act upon it for sin was found in him and God cast him to "hell" which was created for him and his angels. This is the moment the Second Person of the Trinity (Christ) saw him fall as lightning.
This occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. For in God's fierce anger He destroyed the planet.
And since the gifts and calling of God are without repentance in order to remove Lucifer from his ministry of "over-stretched" the Garden of God, God destroyed the planet. No planet, no ministry.
All the angels God created were created sinful, that is, missing the mark of the glory of God. But God through His power kept two-thirds of the angels from sinning.
The angels that sinned (or were found sin in them) were cast to 'hell' in chains of darkness reserved for judgment.
This fierce anger of God is what left the earth empty, and void, and darkness on the face of the deep.
Genesis 1:3 God begins to recreate in order that He may continue his Plan of Man.

 

[CrowCross]

If the serpent is Lucifer/Satan and his purpose was to tempt the woman how can that mindset be an 'unfallen' state?
It can't.

How much time elapsed between the creation of Adam and Eve and the fall?

To want to make the woman sin (when she was already a sinner) cannot be an 'unfallen' state as you suppose.

Eve was already a sinner? Chapter and verse please.

To be in the Garden of Eden BEFORE sin was found in him was his ministry.
From here we can only deduce that it was in this ministry to "anointed/outstretched" the Garden of God (Eden) that he thought in his mind to ascend from this first estate into the heavens (second heaven - the stars and planets) and to become like God. But it was only a thought he never had the chance to act upon it for sin was found in him and God cast him to "hell" which was created for him and his angels. This is the moment the Second Person of the Trinity (Christ) saw him fall as lightning.

Satan wasn't cast to hell. Sorry.

This occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. For in God's fierce anger He destroyed the planet.

There is no support for this.

And since the gifts and calling of God are without repentance in order to remove Lucifer from his ministry of "over-stretched" the Garden of God, God destroyed the planet. No planet, no ministry.

But as pointed out...Satan was in the garden in an un-fallen state for some time period prior to tempting Eve.

All the angels God created were created sinful, that is, missing the mark of the glory of God. But God through His power kept two-thirds of the angels from sinning.

Not biblical...chapter and verse please.

The angels that sinned (or were found sin in them) were cast to 'hell' in chains of darkness reserved for judgment.

Not biblical. Chapter and verse please.

This fierce anger of God is what left the earth empty, and void, and darkness on the face of the deep.
Genesis 1:3 God begins to recreate in order that He may continue his Plan of Man.

As I said...not biblical.

Keep in mind I do understand your theory...we can even throw in planet Rahab. But from what I've studied that theory keeps coming up lacking.

Remember...."31And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. " That would include the angels. If Satan and 1/3 of the angels were fallen at that time would you say they were part of the very good? I doubt it.

 

[Josheb]

There is no Satan except as the word is used: adjective and noun - "adversary."

Is the existence of the adversaries influence on the world in Biblical times and today being denied?

If not, then please clarify because that is how this op reads.

 

[jeremiah1five]

How much time elapsed between the creation of Adam and Eve and the fall?

Can't say.
But I do believe it was enough time for the man and woman to experience good before the commandment came to not eat of the tree.

Eve was already a sinner? Chapter and verse please.

As you should know they both disobeyed God (sinned). Sin comes from sinner.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sa 24:13.

Maybe the ancient proverb is from the time of Adam and Eve.

Satan wasn't cast to hell. Sorry.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Pe 2:3–4.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit
Is 14:15.

There is no support for this.

Tell me, then, at what time did this happen except before God created man since the Scripture says "there was no man" when God's fierce anger destroyed 'the fruitful place?' And when did the mountains tremble and the hills moved?

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [A'dam].
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

Or this: (note the language)

Behold, the LORD cmaketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Is 24:1

When did God turn the earth UPSIDE DOWN if not before He created man?

But as pointed out...Satan was in the garden in an un-fallen state for some time period prior to tempting Eve.

But how could that be if Satan and his angels were reserved in chains of darkness awaiting judgment?
It wasn't getting the woman to sin that was his sin. Sin was FOUND in him before any act of sin. So, it must've been when there was no man (not created yet) and while outstretched above the garden of God he thought of ascending into heaven, etc.

Not biblical...chapter and verse please.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Pe 2:3–4.

Not biblical. Chapter and verse please.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Pe 2:3–4.

As I said...not biblical.

Tell me, then, at what time did this happen except before God created man since the Scripture says "there was no man" when God's fierce anger destroyed 'the fruitful place?' And when did the mountains tremble and the hills moved?

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [A'dam].
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

Or this: (note the language)

Behold, the LORD cmaketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Is 24:1

When did God turn the earth UPSIDE DOWN if not before He created man?

Keep in mind I do understand your theory...we can even throw in planet Rahab. But from what I've studied that theory keeps coming up lacking.

Well then, show me the lack (not your understanding of lack), but Scripture that contradicts anything I've said.

Remember...."31And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. " That would include the angels. If Satan and 1/3 of the angels were fallen at that time would you say they were part of the very good? I doubt it.

Define "good."
Morally "good?" Because that word for 'morally' is not here in the Genesis creation.
So, define 'good.'

 

[jeremiah1five]

Is the existence of the adversaries influence on the world in Biblical times and today being denied?

If not, then please clarify because that is how this op reads.

You forget the sin nature in man.
THAT is the source of evil on the planet, not Lucifer, or Satan, or any other being.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen. 6:4–5.

 

[CrowCross]

Tell me, then, at what time did this happen except before God created man since the Scripture says "there was no man" when God's fierce anger destroyed 'the fruitful place?' And when did the mountains tremble and the hills moved?

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [A'dam].
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

Where did the birds go?

 

[Josheb]

You forget the sin nature in man.
.

Prove it.

Prove I forgot the sin nature in man.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Where did the birds go?

They weren't birds. They were the sinning angels.

Strong's H#5775
Hebrew Word: עוֹף
Transliteration: ʿôp
from <H#5774> (`uwph); a bird (as covered with feathers, or rather as covering with wings), often collective.

Strong's H#5774
Hebrew Word: עוּף
Transliteration: ʿûp
a primitive root; to cover (with wings or obscurity); hence (as denominative from <H#5775> (`owph)) to fly; also (by implication of dimness) to faint (from the darkness of swooning.)

Italic/underline is the definition.

In Genesis 7:14 is the actual word for the animal:

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. Gen. 7:14.

Strong's H#6833
or tsippor, tsip-pore’; from <H6852> (tsaphar); a little bird (as hopping.)

"Fowl" is H#5775.

The word "bird" (singular) is H#6833 from Genesis 7:14 all the way up to and including Psalm 124:7.

If there was "no man" (Adam) Jer. 4:24, there would be no "birds" H#6833.