THE ANGELS THAT SINNED

[jeremiah1five]

Prove it.

Prove I forgot the sin nature in man.

I didn't say you forgot.
You didn't mention it.

 

[CrowCross]

They weren't birds. They were the sinning angels.

LOL...yeah, ok..right. How silly of me not to catch that.

 

[jeremiah1five]

LOL...yeah, ok..right. How silly of me not to catch that.

That's because you're not looking at the original language of Scripture.
You can't get doctrine from a translation.

 

[CrowCross]

That's because you're not looking at the original language of Scripture.
You can't get doctrine from a translation.

What a bunch of bull.

So, when I read the bible I have to stop and check every word I read just to make sure I get the "proper" translation?

OK, lets see how well that works.

Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”......Yikes, the translators should have used the word angel.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What a bunch of bull.

So, when I read the bible I have to stop and check every word I read just to make sure I get the "proper" translation?

OK, lets see how well that works.

Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”......Yikes, the translators should have used the word angel.

The original language is important.
God means what He says and says what He means and it is our responsibility to KNOW what He says and what He means.
We must ALL see the same Jesus.
We must ALL say the same thing as God.
To do otherwise is to oppose Him.

 

[CrowCross]

The original language is important.
God means what He says and says what He means and it is our responsibility to KNOW what He says and what He means.
We must ALL see the same Jesus.
We must ALL say the same thing as God.
To do otherwise is to oppose Him.

19All flying insects are unclean for you; they may not be eaten. 20But you may eat any clean bird.

Oh wait....they could eat any clean angel.

 

[Josheb]

They weren't birds. They were the sinning angels.

Strong's H#5775
Hebrew Word: עוֹף
Transliteration: ʿôp
from <H#5774> (`uwph); a bird (as covered with feathers, or rather as covering with wings), often collective.

Strong's H#5774
Hebrew Word: עוּף
Transliteration: ʿûp
a primitive root; to cover (with wings or obscurity); hence (as denominative from <H#5775> (`owph)) to fly; also (by implication of dimness) to faint (from the darkness of swooning.)

Italic/underline is the definition.

In Genesis 7:14 is the actual word for the animal:

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. Gen. 7:14.

Strong's H#6833
or tsippor, tsip-pore’; from <H6852> (tsaphar); a little bird (as hopping.)

"Fowl" is H#5775.

The word "bird" (singular) is H#6833 from Genesis 7:14 all the way up to and including Psalm 124:7.

If there was "no man" (Adam) Jer. 4:24, there would be no "birds" H#6833.

Not only is this an exegetical fallacy abusing the Hebrew "oph," the text of Genesis 1 clearly states the birds (and all the other animals) were made chronologically before humans. There were, in fact, birds before humans. If angels are represented in the lights made on the first and fourth days (as is indicated in the psalms and prophets), then there were angels before humans, too. Either way, that last statement is incorrect.


Give D. A. Carson's "Exegetical Fallacies" a read. It will help prevent these kinds of errors from occurring and improve exegetical prowess.

 

[Josheb]

I didn't say you forgot.

Post #37 proves otherwise. Post #37 explicitly states, "You forget the sin nature in man." Not only did I not "forget" anything but 1) it is wrong of you to make the posts about the posters, 2) it is wrong of you to assume you know what anyone does or does not forget, 3) it is wrong of you to assume negative conditions in others without first assuming the positive, 4) just because something was not mentioned does not mean it was forgotten (false cause fallacy), 4) post what you mean because all anyone has to understand you is the words you post and what you posted plainly states I forgot something, 5) NEVER deny the content of your own posts, contradicting yourself and think others will believe you have any integrity, and 6) There is no mention in this op of the things I posted, so the hypocrisy of assuming I forgot something in the absence of this op's own mentions is objectively observable by all.

In other words, there is a PILE of problems in those two sentences. All of it was completely unnecessary and was easily avoided by simply answering the one question that was asked.

Should have kept the post about the posts.

You didn't mention it.

Then say that next time.

Even better, post, "I do not see any mention of _____X_________...." because that is about the post, NOT the poster.



There are reasons why I did not mention the sin nature of man and one of them is so that you would address what was posted, and we now see that did not happen. So go back to Post 35 and answer the one single, very simple and op-relevant question that was asked therein. Just answer the question asked. Do not assume any nefarious motive on my part. Do not mention me AT ALL! Do not avoid the question. Do not post non sequitur. Do not repeat already-posted content.

Just answer the question asked.

Is the existence of the adversaries influence on the world in Biblical times and today being denied? If not, then please clarify because that is how this op reads.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Not only is this an exegetical fallacy abusing the Hebrew "oph," the text of Genesis 1 clearly states the birds (and all the other animals) were made chronologically before humans. There were, in fact, birds before humans. If angels are represented in the lights made on the first and fourth days (as is indicated in the psalms and prophets), then there were angels before humans, too. Either way, that last statement is incorrect.


Give D. A. Carson's "Exegetical Fallacies" a read. It will help prevent these kinds of errors from occurring and improve exegetical prowess.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

There was no Adam, meaning there was no man.
If God destroyed the planet, turned the fruitful place into a wilderness, turned the earth upside down while there were animals and birds in the proper sense, and every creeping thing, wouldn't they be killed?
And If God destroyed the planet through a cataclysmic event as described above in which the whole eco-system was affected where is the re-creation in Scripture to restore the birds and animals and fish and whales and every creeping thing since all mortal life on the planet was destroyed?

You haven't thought this through.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Post #37 proves otherwise. Post #37 explicitly states, "You forget the sin nature in man." Not only did I not "forget" anything but 1) it is wrong of you to make the posts about the posters, 2) it is wrong of you to assume you know what anyone does or does not forget, 3) it is wrong of you to assume negative conditions in others without first assuming the positive, 4) just because something was not mentioned does not mean it was forgotten (false cause fallacy), 4) post what you mean because all anyone has to understand you is the words you post and what you posted plainly states I forgot something, 5) NEVER deny the content of your own posts, contradicting yourself and think others will believe you have any integrity, and 6) There is no mention in this op of the things I posted, so the hypocrisy of assuming I forgot something in the absence of this op's own mentions is objectively observable by all.

In other words, there is a PILE of problems in those two sentences. All of it was completely unnecessary and was easily avoided by simply answering the one question that was asked.

Should have kept the post about the posts.

Then say that next time.

Even better, post, "I do not see any mention of _____X_________...." because that is about the post, NOT the poster.



There are reasons why I did not mention the sin nature of man and one of them is so that you would address what was posted, and we now see that did not happen. So go back to Post 35 and answer the one single, very simple and op-relevant question that was asked therein. Just answer the question asked. Do not assume any nefarious motive on my part. Do not mention me AT ALL! Do not avoid the question. Do not post non sequitur. Do not repeat already-posted content.

Just answer the question asked.

Is the existence of the adversaries influence on the world in Biblical times and today being denied? If not, then please clarify because that is how this op reads.

I responded to what you posted.
You did not mention the sin nature in man, so I did.

 

[Josheb]

You haven't thought this through.

First, I forget things and now I don't think thigs through. I get judged for merely asking one single very simple, valid, and op-relevant question asked in goodwill solely for the sake of better understanding the op. It's really hard for you not to attack others, isn't it. I forgive you.

I responded to what you posted. You did not mention the sin nature in man, so I did.

Still haven't answered my question. I'll ask it again for the third time.

Is the existence of the adversaries' influence on the world in Biblical times and today being denied?

If not, then please clarify because that is how this op reads.

 

[jeremiah1five]

First, I forget things and now I don't think thigs through. I get judged for merely asking one single very simple, valid, and op-relevant question asked in goodwill solely for the sake of better understanding the op. It's really hard for you not to attack others, isn't it. I forgive you.

First, I haven't offended you.
Second, I haven't asked forgiveness.
Third, if I did offend you obey the instruction in Matthew 18:15ff.
And fourth, I have a spine and very little offends me. Except those who say they are Christian and obey not the Lord as well as say wrong things about the One True God.
These are a contradiction to a persons profession to Christ.

Still haven't answered my question. I'll ask it again for the third time.
Is the existence of the adversaries' influence on the world in Biblical times and today being denied?
If not, then please clarify because that is how this op reads.

According to who?

 

[CrowCross]

First, I forget things and now I don't think thigs through. I get judged for merely asking one single very simple, valid, and op-relevant question asked in goodwill solely for the sake of better understanding the op. It's really hard for you not to attack others, isn't it. I forgive you.

Still haven't answered my question. I'll ask it again for the third time.

Is the existence of the adversaries' influence on the world in Biblical times and today being denied?

If not, then please clarify because that is how this op reads.

Side note:
When somebody responds with...."You haven't thought this through."....as if unless you agree with them, you're not quite up to speed or you're not a biblical christian.

I had the individual tell me birds were angels in the passage....they didn't do to well in post 44 and 46. Perhaps they "thought it through" and now realize the birds are not angels.

jeremiah1five wants to believe the verses are about a destroyed earth...the entire earth...cast into being formless and void..inserted into a made up gap between Gen 1:1 and 2...where the earth was formless and void....basically a ball of water. Yet, this isn't the Genesis description as at that time there were no mountains or deserts as the verse describes.

24 I looked at the mountains,
and behold, they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.

The verse goes onto to say...26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert

Perhaps he didn't ...."think it through"

 

[jeremiah1five]

Side note:
When somebody responds with...."You haven't thought this through."....as if unless you agree with them, you're not quite up to speed or you're not a biblical christian.

I had the individual tell me birds were angels in the passage....they didn't do to well in post 44 and 46. Perhaps they "thought it through" and now realize the birds are not angels.

jeremiah1five wants to believe the verses are about a destroyed earth...the entire earth...cast into being formless and void..inserted into a made up gap between Gen 1:1 and 2...where the earth was formless and void....basically a ball of water. Yet, this isn't the Genesis description as at that time there were no mountains or deserts as the verse describes.

24 I looked at the mountains,
and behold, they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.

The verse goes onto to say...26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert

Perhaps he didn't ...."think it through"

Tell me, WHEN did God do this:

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said,
The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet will I not make a full end.
Jer. 4:24–27.

But God did not make a full END.
So, when did God destroy that caused the mountains to tremble and ALL the hills move lightly?
Saying it was when He destroyed Judah by the Babylonians doesn't fit the bill. They didn't have such weapons that would cause such an effect as Jeremiah the Bold said.

Or this:


24 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isaiah 24.

When did the Lord make the EARTH empty and make [the earth] waste?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Fini. Done. Complete.
But in verse 2 something happened to the earth to render it "without form, and void; and darkness upon the face of the deep?"

So tell me.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

.
Just a question of anyone can please help

if God had removed the angels from the earth who were sinful, why were Satan and his angels not removed from the earth ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

.
Just a question of anyone can please help

if God had removed the angels from the earth who were sinful, why were Satan and his angels not removed from the earth ?

Scripture says ALL the angels that sinned.
Lucifer included.
"Satan" is an Old Testament word meaning "adversary." It is used of people.

25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel and reigned over Syria. 1 Ki 11:25.

The word is translated into Hebrew as "satan."

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 6.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pe 2:4.

Every angel that sinned is in chains of darkness reserved to judgment.
ALL OF THEM [that sinned.]

 

[CrowCross]

Tell me, WHEN did God do this:

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said,
The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet will I not make a full end.
Jer. 4:24–27.

But God did not make a full END.
So, when did God destroy that caused the mountains to tremble and ALL the hills move lightly?
Saying it was when He destroyed Judah by the Babylonians doesn't fit the bill. They didn't have such weapons that would cause such an effect as Jeremiah the Bold said.

Or this:


24 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isaiah 24.

When did the Lord make the EARTH empty and make [the earth] waste?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Fini. Done. Complete.
But in verse 2 something happened to the earth to render it "without form, and void; and darkness upon the face of the deep?"

So tell me.

If you have to go through such complications with your explanation above...forgetting about the birds that flew away...relying on speculation...then have at it.

Then again, if there once was a pre-Adamic world....then why Gen 1 the beginning? That would be like saying the fourth inning of a baseball game is the beginning....then again they may have soccer 4 runs in the fourth and that was the big inning.

 

[EarlyActs]

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Peter 2:4.

The number of angels that sinned are one-third.

They are ALL "cast to hell, and delivered in chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."

ALL the angels that sinned.

This means that any and all evil in the world is the result of the sinful nature in mankind.
And it is all-encompassing:

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only.
Gen. 6:5.

This explains a great deal, such as the sons of God who married the daughters of men were human, those from the Covenant line of Seth and the ungodly line of men and women who disobeyed the LORD.

Jesus seeing Satan fall as lightning was at the time God cast them to hell reserved in chains of darkness awaiting the judgment.

There is no Satan except as the word is used: adjective and noun - "adversary."

Could you connect the jump from 1/3 of the angels to the evil of man’s nature a little tighter?

 

[CrowCross]

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pe 2:4.

"4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell".....is this the sin?

Gen 6: 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

 

[EarlyActs]

I put the angelic rebellion in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
God’s angry response is what rendered the earth “without form and void with darkness on the face of the deep.”
There is nowhere else this passage of Scripture could fit:

Jeremiah 4:24–26 (KJV 1900): 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

“There was no man” meaning there was no Adam.

There are several helpful things here.

Yes there must be a connection between the rebellion and the conditions found in 1:2

On 1:1, see Waltke or Cassuto on section titles. There is a 4 part format to the oral/verbal part of Genesis, which it was til ch 39 when Joseph started writing Bc God gave him an alphabet for a much larger vocabulary than Egyptian glyphs allow.

The 4 parts are:
Title
Pre-existing status
New Action
Summary

This made oral recitation much easier. The next title after 1:1 is 2:4 . Another is 5:1

I was fortunate in early formal study to be assigned to compare Jude and 2 Peter 2. There are some extraordinary statements about the Angel rebellion, interference with human and animal sexual activity, and places in the heavens/stars, including ‘tantares’ from Greek legend.

By way of corroboration, a native tribe near Seattle has a cosmology in which the Creator is said to have allowed humans to use ‘form-changing’ of other creatures, which only seems to have resulted in evil and harm, and he took it away.

The fault of the account is that the blame is put on the Creator, however, keep in mind that such accounts easily assume that any higher power is the one true God-creator. The value of the account is that it reinforces the Genesis expression ‘after their kind’ as a moral necessity.