THE ACTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

[Wordsmith]

The Spirit did not indwell the Apostles until the Day of Pentecost

Then explain the passage below:

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

 

[Alive]

Apostleship is an interesting subject and one that I had to deal with some years ago, when some men that I knew proclaimed themselves 'apostles'--it did not end well.
Having said that, these are my thoughts.
1. Certainly the 12--Paul as one of them are unique. Entirely unique.
2. In a much more general sense, 'apostle' the word means 'sent one'. So it is reasonable for some to think that any man raised up by God and sent on a particular 'mission', might be called an 'apostle' or to avoid controversy-- a man sent of God for a purpose.

 

[civic]

Then explain the passage below:

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This was symbolic of what was to come in its fullness on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus promised the indwelling of His spirit in them after His Ascension which was promised exactly 50 days after His Resurrection, not a day before. Its not different then when He sent them out in two's to perform miracles by the power of the spirit as the prophets did in the O.T. But the Spirit did not indwell them at that time either.

 

[civic]

Apostleship is an interesting subject and one that I had to deal with some years ago, when some men that I knew proclaimed themselves 'apostles'--it did not end well.
Having said that, these are my thoughts.
1. Certainly the 12--Paul as one of them are unique. Entirely unique.
2. In a much more general sense, 'apostle' the word means 'sent one'. So it is reasonable for some to think that any man raised up by God and sent on a particular 'mission', might be called an 'apostle' or to avoid controversy-- a man sent of God for a purpose.

Yes the office is different from the messenger being sent. We are all apostles in the secondary sense but not in the primary sense like Paul and the 12.

 

[Wordsmith]

Apostleship is an interesting subject and one that I had to deal with some years ago, when some men that I knew proclaimed themselves 'apostles'--it did not end well.
Having said that, these are my thoughts.
1. Certainly the 12--Paul as one of them are unique. Entirely unique.
2. In a much more general sense, 'apostle' the word means 'sent one'. So it is reasonable for some to think that any man raised up by God and sent on a particular 'mission', might be called an 'apostle' or to avoid controversy-- a man sent of God for a purpose.

Yes there is a difference between the 12 and other Apostles, but most people get hung up on the 12. They were in a class all of their own and other Apostles in scripture did not fill all of the"qualifications" some try to impose on the office of Apostle God set in the church.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

We still have a need for the work of the ministry and the edifying of the body fo Christ. For the life of me I don't understand why this is so difficult to see.

I will make this one observation is seems as though the same ones who rant "no Apostles" today also remove the gifts of the Spirit from the church today. Why is that? God gave His gifts for our benefit.

 

[Wordsmith]

This was symbolic of what was to come in its fullness on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus promised the indwelling of His spirit in them after His Ascension which was promised exactly 50 days after His Resurrection, not a day before. Its not different then when He sent them out in two's to perform miracles by the power of the spirit as the prophets did in the O.T. But the Spirit did not indwell them at that time either.

I disagree, When Jesus spoke things happened. When He said be healed they were healed , when He said peace be still all was still when He said receive ye the Hole Ghost they received. To sort this out we have to do a deep dive into what happens at salvation and what is available after salvation.

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Jesus did not say wait until you are born again He said wait "until ye be endued with power from on high" This is a totally different thing. They were already born again.

 

[civic]

I disagree, When Jesus spoke things happened. When He said be healed they were healed , when He said peace be still all was still when He said receive ye the Hole Ghost they received. To sort this out we have to do a deep dive into what happens at salvation and what is available after salvation.

You have taken one verse which contradicts everything Jesus taught and promised about the Holy Spirit coming to indwell them at Pentecost. That is not how one harmonizes scripture so it doesn't contradict itself. Otherwise you have Jesus promising them something that was not true and actually making Jesus promise false.

Does your 1 verse isolated and taken out of the biblical narrative trump the dozen below that contradict your view ?

Jesus was not Glorified until after His Ascension.

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”

Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."

Jesus had not yet departed in John 20:22 had He ? He was still with them.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Promise of the Spirit at Pentecost !

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:4,5
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me…

hope this helps !!!

 

[ReverendRV]

Then explain the passage below:

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

That Day, the Holy Spirit came; then left without Indwelling. Who knows where he came from, and where he went...

 

[Fred]

I disagree, When Jesus spoke things happened. When He said be healed they were healed , when He said peace be still all was still when He said receive ye the Hole Ghost they received. To sort this out we have to do a deep dive into what happens at salvation and what is available after salvation.

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Jesus did not say wait until you are born again He said wait "until ye be endued with power from on high" This is a totally different thing. They were already born again.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.

When the Lord Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) it is to be understood prophetically to what took place in Acts 2:4 because:
a. Thomas wasn’t there when this event took place, but he was there with the others during Pentecost.
b. According to Luke 24:49 the Lord Jesus stated "I am sending" the Holy Spirit to them, whereas the second half of the passage points to this taking place at a later date.
Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you.
But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.

W. E. Vine asserts that what is described in John 20:22 "was symbolic of the Holy Spirit about to be sent in the world, and with the effect of their ministry of the gospel in the forgiveness of sins by the Spirit's power, or the retention of sins by the rejection of the message (vv. 23, 24). It was a prophetic act as well as symbolic" (John: His Record of Christ, page 183).

Wayne Grudem concurs: When Jesus breathed on his disciples and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22), it probably was an acted-out prophecy about what would happen to them at Pentecost. In the same context - in fact, in the verse immediately preceding - Jesus had told them something that would not happen until Pentecost: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). But even though he said this before he had ascended into heaven, he did not really send them out to preach the gospel until the Day of Pentecost had come. Therefore, his words were looking forward to what would happen a Pentecost. It is best to understand the words in the next sentence, "Receive the Holy Spirit," in the same way - he was speaking in advance of something that would happen on the Day of Pentecost. On that day they would receive the new covenant fullness and power of the Holy Spirit, a much greater empowering of the Holy Spirit than what they had experienced before (Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, page 769, footnote 13).

 

[Fred]

Peter was in the flesh and without the Holy Spirit when he stood up and gave his speech in Acts 1:15-26.

Would this mean Matthias was not the 12th apostle?

 

[civic]

Then explain the passage below:

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Breathed on them is not synonymous with indwelling them. And they Received the H.S. like any OT prophet received the H.S. The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit with power occurred on the Day of Pentecost not a day or hour before.

 

[ReverendRV]

Would this mean Matthias was not the 12th apostle?

I was wondering this. The Twelve Apostles are the Foundation of Heaven...

The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. - Revelation 21:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation21:14&version=NIV

And Saint Paul said he is an Apostle...

 

[civic]

Would this mean Matthias was not the 12th apostle?

Great question brother I have my personal opinion on the matter and its debatable. Matthias was picked by the 11 and we never see or hear from Matthias ever again. Jesus appears to Paul and picks him personally and half of our N.T. was written by him and he was apponted by Jesus as the Apostle to the gentiles fulfilling all the OT promises about a people who were not His people that would become His people. It surely is an intersting topic for discussion. I'm not dogmatic about it but I lean towards the disciples jumping the gun ( remember they were not filled with the Spirit until Pentecost ) and I believe they acted in the flesh having to choose someone and not wait for Christ to appoint one like He did with them. But once again this is just my personal opinion and I would not cause any division or go to the stake over it lol.

 

[ReverendRV]

Great question brother I have my personal opinion on the matter and its debatable. Matthias was picked by the 11 and we never see or hear from Matthias ever again. Jesus appears to Paul and picks him personally and half of our N.T. was hwritten by him and he was apponted by Jesus as the Apostle to the gentiles fulfilling all the OT promises about a people who were not His people that would become His people. It surely is an intersting topic for discussion. I'm not dogmatic about it but I lean towards the disciples jumping the gun ( remember they were not filled with the Spirit until Pentecost ) and I believe they acted in the flesh having to choose someone and not wait for Christ to appoint one like He did with them. But once again this is just my personal opinion and I would not cause any division or go to the stake over it lol.

That makes sense. What if Saul of Tarsus was the Rich Young Ruler?

 

[Fred]

I was wondering this. The Twelve Apostles are the Foundation of Heaven...

The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. - Revelation 21:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation21:14&version=NIV

And Saint Paul said he is an Apostle...

Revelation 21:14

Some assertions in the following link may not be correct. I haven't specifically read all of them.

Matthias as an apostle
What about Paul? If Matthias was one of the twelve, where does that leave Paul? Good question.
When Israel came out of Egypt, how many tribes were there? When the Exodus came about from Egypt, there was a slight rearranging of these tribes in that Levi became a distinct and separate priestly tribe given over to the service of God, and the tribe of Joseph was split into Mannasseh and Ephraim, his two sons. But the foundational structure of there being twelve sources through which each Israelite could trace their Jewish origins remained. Just as technically there were thirteen tribes in the time of Joseph, with his two sons taking his place, that is what we find in the New Testament. Judas is replaced with Matthias and then Paul is added.
http://truekingdom.org/Acts/Acts%201-12-26.htm

 

[civic]

That makes sense. What if Saul of Tarsus was the Rich Young Ruler?

We will never know on this side of eternity but I doubt its him for the simple reason he desired to follow Jesus but the personal cost was to much for him at the time and I'm sure he knew the disciples as well. I don't think from his encounter with Jesus he would kill his followers. That is just my personal opinion.

 

[Fred]

Matthias - The prayer was not an invalid one.
David Peterson: It is important to observe that there are no further examples of such decision making in the NT. As those who were about to enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant, the apostles were using a practice that was sanctioned by God but belonged to the old era. It took place before Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out in a way that signified a new kind of relationship between God and his people. From Luke's emphasis on the Spirit's role in giving wisdom, guidance, and direction, it would appear that the apostolic example on this occasion is not to be followed by Christians today (#106)
Footnote #106: There is no basis for the claim that the apostles were wrong to select Matthias and that they should have awaited God's choice of Paul to fill the vacancy (Pillar New Testament Commentary, Acts of the Apostles, page 128-129).

1. God never condemned his apostleship.
2. Peter took his stand with him and the other apostles in the proclamation of the gospel (Acts 2:14).
3. He, and the other apostles, were addressed by the Jews after Peter's proclamation of the gospel (Acts 2:37).
4. Those who became believers "continued steadfastly" to his, and the other apostles, doctrine and fellowship (Acts 2:42).
5. He, and the other apostles, were able to perform wonders and signs (Acts 2:43).
6. He, and the other apostles, were put in prison by the high priest and Sadducees (Acts 5:18).
7. He, and the other apostles, were beaten for their faith by these officials (Acts 5:40).
8. He, and the other apostles, summoned the disciples to resolve the complaint by the Hellenistic believers (Acts 6:2).
9. He, and the other apostles, laid hands on the men that were put in charge of this task (Acts 6:6).
10. He, and the other apostles, sent Peter and John to Samaria (Acts 8:14).
11. He, and the other apostles, were there when Barnabas introduced Paul to them (Acts 9:27).
12. He, and the other apostles, made the authoritative decision at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:6, 22, 23; 16:4).

 

[jeremiah1five]

A witness of His Bodily Resurrection like I have said all along.

Yes, that's what I read. You are saying a natural or physical qualification for a spiritual office.

 

[ReverendRV]

Revelation 21:14

Some assertions in the following link may not be correct. I haven't specifically read all of them.

Matthias as an apostle
What about Panul? If Matthias was one of the twelve, where does that leave Paul? Good question.
When Israel came out of Egypt, how many tribes were there? When the Exodus came about from Egypt, there was a slight rearranging of these tribes in that Levi became a distinct and separate priestly tribe given over to the service of God, and the tribe of Joseph was split into Mannasseh and Ephraim, his two sons. But the foundational structure of there being twelve sources through which each Israelite could trace their Jewish origins remained. Just as technically there were thirteen tribes in the time of Joseph, with his two sons taking his place, that is what we find in the New Testament. Judas is replaced with Matthias and then Paul is added.
http://truekingdom.org/Acts/Acts%201-12-26.htm

Nice correlation...

 

[civic]

Yes, that's what I read. You are saying a natural or physical qualification for a spiritual office.

I'm saying a physical appearance of Jesus to the person he assigns/designates for the office of Apostle. Its a physical office/position in the body of Christ( His church) appointed by Jesus for the spiritual welfare and foundation of the church. That foundation has already been laid by them(the Apostles ).